No ifs, no buts, no provisos - who do you REALLY rate?

[INTORRESTING]

Nice to see the squad being played and the stars coming on at the right time to deliver the killer blows whilst also allowing the stars to stay fit and of course we had no injuries.

 

Also good to see we have now scored 2 more goals than united in the league without torres and gerrard for spells. Maybe we are not so negative after all.

 

One thing i will say is that maybe someone could do a better job in the league but would they also deliver in europe where the money is made. A new manager could come in and do better but if we get nowhere in the cl the money can dry up. If we did get someone else in, would they be as good as rafa in europe?

 

Personally i would rather someone who excels in europe and is learning the league so we can eventually excel in both. Rafa is a tactical master at times and not many are. So if he learns the prem i think we will have a cup team with the grit to win the league aswell. It may take a couple more years and a few more top players but Rafa has had a great start to his lfc career considering the competition when he took over.

 

I expect Villa to drop off once the uefa starts and i expect chelsea and arsenal to continue to struggle. We need to rotate for the cl and i am confident we will have our best players fresh and fit for the run in as Rafa can almost play anyone in the cl.

 

United will have to drop a few points somewhere and we must push on now and take them at OT. Torres and Rafa for player and manager of the month !

[Code]

Reina

Hyypia

Agger

Carra

Alonso

Mascherano

Gerrard

Torres

 

Not one wide player in there and that says it all.

[Wicket]

Reina

Agger

Skrtel

Carragher

Alonso

Mascherano

Gerrard

Torres

Arbeloa

 

That's my list. Arguable over Arbeloa, though I'm not sure what we are looking for in a fullback. Not everyone can be Alves quality, and I think Arbeloa does well enough. Aurelio is nearly there, though I didn't vote for him. I think if Insua gets a good run he could well get into the list.

 

agree with that totally, i'd like to see a long run for Aurelio injury-free and i'd hopefully vote him in. Don't think he's put a foot wrong when he's played this season.

[silverlining]

What a great idea for a poll

 

And not many surprises or arguable results either.

 

Although I think maybe Kuyt has been a bit harshly marked there. (I know this isn't the most popular view, mind you).

[JMARKH]

Ngog must have got sympathy votes because he is shit.

[silverlining]

Ngog must have got sympathy votes because he is shit.

 

 

Poor the Eggnog.

 

I've never seen anything in him to make me think he is anything else but fucking rubbish, but Jesus, you'd need a heart of fucking stone not to feel a bit sorry for him lately.

 

Mentioned as the "straw that broke the camel's back" when he took Keane's squad place, the poor fucker then gets chucked into a Premiership debut as a lone striker in starting XI that had grown men crying when they saw it.

 

And OK, it was one of the worst Premiership debuts I've ever seen from a Liverpool player, but I don't think he was given much of a chance.

[Red Dawn]

I'm amazed that there are about 15 reds out there who think Torres and Carra are not "Liverpool class"

[JMARKH]

Poor the Eggnog.

 

I've never seen anything in him to make me think he is anything else but fucking rubbish, but Jesus, you'd need a heart of fucking stone not to feel a bit sorry for him lately.

 

Mentioned as the "straw that broke the camel's back" when he took Keane's squad place, the poor fucker then gets chucked into a Premiership debut as a lone striker in starting XI that had grown men crying when they saw it.

 

And OK, it was one of the worst Premiership debuts I've ever seen from a Liverpool player, but I don't think he was given much of a chance.

 

You'll never break this heart of stone as mick Jagger would say! I don't feel sorry for him just perplexed with Rafa when I see his name on the team sheet. As soon as Nemeth is back I hope he takes his place in the squad.

[redrosetints]

So you are saying that it would have been literally impossible for anyone else to do a better job? You honestly think that doesn't defy logic? Sorry - just seen your last point. I'm not saying anyone definitely would have done better; I'm just trying to point out to the people so staunchly defending Rafa's record is that it's conceivable that it could be better.

 

As for my views and Rafa's diverging, I wouldn't give a shiney shite if he took training in a pink nappy and blew his entire budget on my 84 year old nan with her plastic hip and two plastic knees if it made us win the league. I still hold some small hope that we can do it this season, but it really is small. I just think we've got too many weaknesses relative to the favourites and I think the majority of those weaknesses could have been lessened with different decisions by Rafa in the transfer market. In short, I could accept any number of shitty performances if we were winning all the time - but we're not.

 

 

Of course it's conceivable someone could do better, but as Im a glass half full kinda guy, I like what we have, the CL exploits. Im prepared to take challening domestically (as we are) and the great CL nights right now. Im not yet ready to gamble that, for possibly improving in the league, of course it's possible someone could do better in both, again i accept that but Im still too traumatised by the Igor Marseille game, the Basle game, Strasbourg, PSV games to even consider throwing away Rafa and our current CL form for a possible improvement domestically. I like the CL. I like bossing europe and being feared again and to me its a far greater test of your team than it being determined by how good your 4th choice midfielder or 3rd choice striker is on a cold january night at Stoke City or West Brom. Which is how i see the league right now.

 

Im also yet to be convinced that any of the alternates, Jose or MoN, actually offer anything different, both set in their ways, both demand control, both have good records, but so does Rafa and for my sanity, I'm not sure I could take the 'discussion' on here. I can see all the same old arguments about style and counter attacking, Heskey etc being brought out far earlier under either of those two and the whole enjoyment of LFC will dwindle further.

 

Rafa doesnt make me sad or unhappy about LFC, neither do the players, the owners do but the worst for me is our fans right now. Thats no dig on anyone, I just get depressed that what should be (and is to me) our most exciting season in years, steamrolling rhoguth europe, meeting madrid, being in the title chase, seems to be passing people by. Given our struggles in the last 20 years, I think it may be well to enjoy what we have now as with the current boardroom strife and no change guaranteed, this could turn out to be a high, rather than a low.

[The Chief]

Agger, Hyypia, Gerrard, Torres, Aurelio, Alonso, Benayoun, The Chief, Insua, Carra, Pepe, Skrtel.

 

I left out Arbeloa, cos I think he's had some truly bad games lately, and Kuyt who although he gives 100% in every game is, sadly, not good enough.

 

Who the fuck are the 2 who voted for Dossena? OK he IS improving, but he needs to improve a hell of a lot more, IMO.

[Stu Monty]

Anyone who thinks you can take Houllier's squad, age it five years, add one big signing each season and see it challenge for the title as closely as we are now needs locking up.

 

You can win a Champions League with a team if you are an outstanding tactician, you need a squad to win the league, regardless of your ability.

[PaulMcC]

I left Reina out by mistake.

 

I don't think we have 1 bad player. A few could be improved on though.

[Ian Sea]

I intended to vote for the 9 usual suspects but I missed off Skrtel by mistake. Sorry Martin, please don't kill me.

[stringvest]

Anyone who thinks you can take Houllier's squad, age it five years, add one big signing each season and see it challenge for the title as closely as we are now needs locking up.

 

You can win a Champions League with a team if you are an outstanding tactician, you need a squad to win the league, regardless of your ability.

 

I honestly believe we would have been better off bringing in genuine quality. I probably do need locking up, but before I'm escorted from the building let me walk you through my rationale.

 

We have a bloated squad, but for 95% of the time we tend to rely on a relatively small number of players (15 ish?) The bit-part players, N'gog, Lucas etc, may be marginally better than our home grown stuff, but we really shouldn't be playing them that much, and if we need to , the difference in quality between them and our reserves isn't worth the purchase price for the limited number of opportunities they should see.

 

If over the course of the last 5 years we'd have bought Reina, Torres, Alonso, plus two other absolutely top drawer world class players, would we be further ahead than we are? It's by no means an open and shut case.

[stringvest]

The only genuine LFC class (and I'm talking about late 70s to 90 class) players we have now are Gerrard, Reina, Alonso, Carragher and Torres.

 

If you're talking about the class of the 90s, then you could make a case for a couple more. It all depends on your yardstick

[Stu Monty]

I honestly believe we would have been better off bringing in genuine quality. I probably do need locking up, but before I'm escorted from the building let me walk you through my rationale.

 

We have a bloated squad, but for 95% of the time we tend to rely on a relatively small number of players (15 ish?) The bit-part players, N'gog, Lucas etc, may be marginally better than our home grown stuff, but we really shouldn't be playing them that much, and if we need to , the difference in quality between them and our reserves isn't worth the purchase price for the limited number of opportunities they should see.

 

If over the course of the last 5 years we'd have bought Reina, Torres, Alonso, plus two other absolutely top drawer world class players, would we be further ahead than we are? It's by no means an open and shut case.

 

Presumably, for this hypothetical, we can't buy Reina and Alonso though? I thought we were going for top quality £20m signings?

[moxter]

At the moment we're in the worst of both worlds: there's not enough first-rate quality, but so many of the decent squad players have been let go that as soon as a few players get injured/suspended, we're in deep trouble.

 

Couple of quick points:

 

To the person who said we're as reliant on Gerrard as we were when Rafa took over, I take the point, but would add that Gerrard is SIGNIFICANTLY better player than he was four years ago.

 

Another little point - I know we're discussing transfers specifically on this thread, but too often on this place it seems like Rafa is getting judged by his transfers alone. I'd say transfers are less than half of a manager's "make-up". Tactically, he makes bold decisions whatever people say (rotation, zonal marking, playing centre forwards on the wing, playing Gerrard up front, playing a defensive-counterattacking method) that, while they might be right or wrong, are at least strong decisions and he doesn't let media or fans sway him.

[blakey]

carragher

skrtel

hyypia

darby

gerrard

masch

spearing

alonso

torres

[stringvest]

Presumably, for this hypothetical, we can't buy Reina and Alonso though? I thought we were going for top quality £20m signings?

 

No, top quality signings. In most cases they cost top dollar. In some cases, they don't.

[Paul]

Presumably, for this hypothetical, we can't buy Reina and Alonso though? I thought we were going for top quality £20m signings?

 

No. As I mentioned a few pages ago, the money thing is not only a red herring in terms of budget, it's a red herring in terms of a measure of a player's quality. Loads of attacking players have changed hands for similar figures to those we've paid over the last few years and we haven't got them or even gone for them. Rafa and his scouts are just poor judges of attacking players, generally speaking. That's the issue, not money.

 

That said, he's still diluted his funds with his revolving door/multiple options nonsense as well as the ridiculous way he's tried to go about winning the argument (which I agree with him about) over The Academy by having a parallel academy and blocking everyone from the official one.

[stringvest]

No. As I mentioned a few pages ago, the money thing is not only a red herring in terms of budget, it's a red herring in terms of a measure of a player's quality. Loads of attacking players have changed hands for similar figures to those we've paid over the last few years and we haven't got them or even gone for them. Rafa and his scouts are just poor judges of attacking players, generally speaking. That's the issue, not money.

 

That said, he's still diluted his funds with his revolving door/multiple options nonsense as well as the ridiculous way he's tried to go about winning the argument (which I agree with him about) over The Academy by having a parallel academy and blocking everyone from the official one.

 

Yep.

[Catch22]

No. As I mentioned a few pages ago, the money thing is not only a red herring in terms of budget, it's a red herring in terms of a measure of a player's quality. Loads of attacking players have changed hands for similar figures to those we've paid over the last few years and we haven't got them or even gone for them. Rafa and his scouts are just poor judges of attacking players, generally speaking. That's the issue, not money.

 

That said, he's still diluted his funds with his revolving door/multiple options nonsense as well as the ridiculous way he's tried to go about winning the argument (which I agree with him about) over The Academy by having a parallel academy and blocking everyone from the official one.

 

 

I do agree with you that Rafa's creative buys (not strikers but creator:he got rid of his striking mistakes for flat which leaves the Torres buy at £21m which is excellent; his wing/AM buys are poor though) are not as good as the defensive ones

 

But,even with perfect hindsight, i don't see that many players that we have definietely missed out on

I would be interested to know which attacking players you think we have missed who i) Are proven at European elite level (Young may turn out to be brilliant & worth a lot more than £10m; however he equally may be found wanting at the highest level like Keane or Saunders were)& ii)Where within our budget at the time?

I can come up with Berbatov when he went for £10m, Adebayour for £7m but he looks to have an attitude problem & possibly Santa Cruz as he has played for BM.

 

I could well be missing some but it is not as easy as it 1st appears (someone suggested Ballack for instance who was completely out of our wage budget let alone the effects on what Gerrard,etc would want to be paid)

 

Also the revolving door approach hasn't actually cost us very much if any cash at all as Rafa gets rid so quickly when he gets it wrong & deals successes such as Crouch & Momo for a profit when they are upgraded to Torres & Masch.

 

The parrallel academy is clearly nonsense though; I would certainly agree with you on that.

The cost is not much more than £5m though i dont think

[Paul]

Off the top of my head and without checking transfer fees: Evra (deffo an attacking player), Young, Berbatov, Van Persie, Adebayor, Santa Cruz, Valencia, Nasri (he may be at the pricier end of things), Tevez (on loan at least).

 

I know it's not easy and I wouldn't expect every signing to be a hit (I regard Rafa as an excellent judge of a defender even though he paid real money for The Albatross, for example), but I think he should have done better than one unqualified success in four and half years.

 

It's not just the initial players he signs, but it's the way he treats them when they get here that's mad. I will never, ever understand his treatment of Keane or - even more bizarre - Crouch, for example. And I still don't know why he signed Dirk - he had a better player up front already, but signed a man whose limitations are obvious to everyone with eyes, used him to push Crouch towards the door and then shunted him to the right anyway. Weird.

[redrosetints]

Off the top of my head and without checking transfer fees: Evra (deffo an attacking player), Young, Berbatov, Van Persie, Adebayor, Santa Cruz, Valencia, Nasri (he may be at the pricier end of things), Tevez (on loan at least).

 

I know it's not easy and I wouldn't expect every signing to be a hit (I regard Rafa as an excellent judge of a defender even though he paid real money for The Albatross, for example), but I think he should have done better than one unqualified success in four and half years.

 

It's not just the initial players he signs, but it's the way he treats them when they get here that's mad. I will never, ever understand his treatment of Keane or - even more bizarre - Crouch, for example. And I still don't know why he signed Dirk - he had a better player up front already, but signed a man whose limitations are obvious to everyone with eyes, used him to push Crouch towards the door and then shunted him to the right anyway. Weird.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Firstly, you can't simply dismiss money. Once Tevez signs in the summer, Ronaldo, Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez will have cost over 100m, roughly our entire budget in Rafas 4 and a bit years. Never mind Fergies far superior squad when Rafa arrived, the simple fact is, when they were available we couldn't afford Rooney, Ronaldo and previously Ferdinand or Van Nistelroy.

 

 

Second, I agree that the likes of Bellers and Cisse are good players, but none of them are as good or score as many goals as Gerrard and Torres and none of them would compliment Torres like Gerrard does or/and fit Rafas system... They are quite possibly the best attacking partnershipi in the world as they compliment each other so well. A marriage Rafa identified and bought together so to say he can't spot attacking talent, when he's teamed them up seems blinkered.

 

He's signed good attackers, but trusts in the best of all. Find one of these right wingers is the charge now, not another striker.

[Catch22]

Off the top of my head and without checking transfer fees: Evra (deffo an attacking player), Young, Berbatov, Van Persie, Adebayor, Santa Cruz, Valencia, Nasri (he may be at the pricier end of things), Tevez (on loan at least).

 

I know it's not easy and I wouldn't expect every signing to be a hit (I regard Rafa as an excellent judge of a defender even though he paid real money for The Albatross, for example), but I think he should have done better than one unqualified success in four and half years.

 

It's not just the initial players he signs, but it's the way he treats them when they get here that's mad. I will never, ever understand his treatment of Keane or - even more bizarre - Crouch, for example. And I still don't know why he signed Dirk - he had a better player up front already, but signed a man whose limitations are obvious to everyone with eyes, used him to push Crouch towards the door and then shunted him to the right anyway. Weird.

 

 

Evra is superb but Rafa wanted him & they out-bid us either in fees nor wages.

Young is unproven (i agree he may well be great but its such a different level)

Berba - agreed

Van Persie was pre-Rafa

Adebayour- agreed but is his attitude right?

Valencia- unproven

Nasri- good shout, although jury still out; Certainly he would have been a lot better than Keane

Tevez- budget wise,we couldn't possibly get him & Torres. Personally i wanted him even more than Torres as i was worried if the latter could cope with the physicality of England. I was wrong; Rafa was right

 

I don't know if you like cricket but in the light of England's clear underperformance recently, Willis was leading a discussion about it.

His main criticism was that the players were overly pampered: there was no point sugar-coating things at the very highest level as at some point you would face very nasty abuse or pressure; If you couldn't deal with normal problems then you would not hack it at the highest level.

 

Keane is short on ability & clearly had massive mental problesm at the highest level: if he couldn't cope with the manager not "loving" him how would he cope away in a title-decider?

Rafa (& any apologist who blames it on Parry is absurd) made a massive mistake buying Keane; he never treated him badly though & he rectified it.

 

Crouch couldn't play with Torres.

The Spaniard is better & Crouch wanted 1st team football.

There was no ill-treatment there.

 

Rafa's record is far from perfect. But perfection is impossible. Rafa hits amazing wins (Pepe,Torres), does good deals (Crouch,Momo) & gets rid of his mistakes asap (Keane)

If you ever find someone to manage your pension/assets with those traits, grab him/her & enjoy the ride because they will make you very rich.