Russia v Ukraine

[Jose Jones]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I didn't say the UK wasn't fucked but the US isn't doing too well either at the rate it's going I don't think. Again with Taiwan we keep seeing reports of war and the US military being involved, but where's any talk of peace? Or are we cavemen again that can only settle issues with weapons? It's bizarre.

 

Maybe if the US is so serious about peace and democracy like they say they could look at closing down some of the hundreds of military installations they have all over the planet, stop meddling in the affairs of so many other countries and focus on the 30 trillion of debt they have instead.

 

And the BRICS alliance is a big concern for the US if it's not prepared for a multipolar world, trying to isolate Russia with sanctions has sped this whole process up by the looks of it. But Putin has said multipolar world too so that must be his propaganda at work again surely.

 

More countries are moving on from using dollars so much though and things are changing. The US and EU can't dominate the planet like they've done so much in the past, we need to move on. So it looks like it's either multipolar or war. It's down to the clowns in the US and supporting countries to decide on militarism or looking for a more peaceful way of getting through this. That's going to require a US that's not so led by weapons contractors and warmongers in agencies, think tanks and the military though, so it's probably not going to be an easy path. I don't think Biden is going to deliver much on that either.

 

The idea that the US is just concerned about democracy and the people of Ukraine and Taiwan is comical at this stage.

 

But then your selection of peace means allowing Russia to invade Ukraine, take it, then murder, torture and imprison anyone who complains.  Likewise with Taiwan - it is China who will be doing all that stuff.

The US has not been the biggest economic market in the world for decades - it is the EU - and the US has not fomented discord within the EU.

Maybe you need to look at the actual aggressors a little bit more, who are real autocratic states?

[Red Phoenix]

15 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

But then your selection of peace means allowing Russia to invade Ukraine, take it, then murder, torture and imprison anyone who complains.  Likewise with Taiwan - it is China who will be doing all that stuff.

The US has not been the biggest economic market in the world for decades - it is the EU - and the US has not fomented discord within the EU.

Maybe you need to look at the actual aggressors a little bit more, who are real autocratic states?

 

Not sure where to start.

 

If the US could try actually working with Russia and China on whatever minimal level in good faith we might not have people murdered, tortured and imprisoned as Russia and China invade Ukraine and Taiwan.

 

It's also a comical whitewashing of US history that's been involved in backing murder, torture and imprisonment in countries all over the place for decades, as well as bombing the shit out of them.

 

That's partly why this has been so hypocritical from the off. The US is one of the last countries on Earth to be preaching about democracy and Human rights. We all know this, but that's forgotten about in this war because it was "unprovoked." Despite the fact that the US was dividing people in Ukraine and supporting nationalism there since before most of us were born.

 

I don't talk about that in detail here or go on about nationalists because we know how that'd turn out.

 

No discord within the EU you say, well Nord Stream could be one huge example but we're not supposed to talk about that either. And there's a lot of pissed of Germans right now too I think, that's not getting forgotten about any time soon.

 

In fact there's a whole lot we're not supposed to talk about because it changes the entire picture of why NATO countries are so invested in this war. Well at this stage this war is already one of the biggest foreign policy disasters of our lifetimes so it's too late for avoiding that I think. But actually focusing on Ukrainian lives might help in some other way than "weapons are the path to peace" or whatever shit they keep going on about, even when the weapons aren't actually changing anything to the point that Ukraine are taking back territory.

 

I'm sure they can launch an offensive that could take back a big part of what they've lost in some area, but for how long? And what do they have left at the end of that? And how does it change the overall picture of the war?

 

I don't want Russia dominating Ukraine, or them or China dominating the world, or China invading Taiwan. I don't want any country dominating the world though, including the US. It's time to move beyond the US trying to rule the planet if we're to avoid these wars getting way more out of hand. Some territory in Ukraine doesn't spell the end of the world, even if it's bad and even though we'd all prefer Russia to return all of that land or for it to be taken back without escalating into something way bigger.

 

The neolibs and neocons almost act like it's the end of the world though, like they had a plan for Ukraine and it's not working out so well. And who knows what lengths they'll go to before this is over.

 

With the way things are going though this seems like it could be too big for each side to lose, so maybe nobody wins. And maybe that's the only way we get out of this without a world war. And how does that end? With a ceasefire and negotiations. If not we stick to the biggest game of Russian roulette the world has ever known, with all of our lives at stake and nobody has the right to keep that going. Again, maybe that's why public support is dropping over time, maybe people are starting to wake up to how bad this actually is.

[Jose Jones]

So the Chinese Communist Party, which has a history of murdering more of its own people than any political regime in the history of the world, would only invade and imprison and torture dissidents in Taiwan... because of the US?  

[Red Phoenix]

43 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

So the Chinese Communist Party, which has a history of murdering more of its own people than any political regime in the history of the world, would only invade and imprison and torture dissidents in Taiwan... because of the US?  

 

Maybe there's a way to avoid them invading the place other than war? Is the US going to war with Saudi Arabia too over imprisoning and torture? Maybe Israel too? They could do a war on Iran while they're there I guess.

 

The US isn't ever going to rule the planet to the extent that imprisonment and torture is eradicated I don't think. Not when they know it's going on in several countries and support them anyway.

 

Does anyone honestly think the US sending delegations over to Taiwan and supplying them with weapons is going to stop them from doing anything? Have you seen the size of China compared to Taiwan?

 

Do you think the US could sustain a war against China with some aircraft carriers or something when China are saying they have anti-ship hypersonic missiles? If they get destroyed maybe they'll pause the invasion until the US send some more to the area to make things a bit more fair?

 

Trump is supposed to have said : "Taiwan is like two feet away from China... We are eight thousand miles away. If they invade, there isn't a fucking thing we can do about it."

 

Maybe that's more accurate than what most of the warmongers are saying. Ukraine had a lot better chance because of how it could be supplied and the size of the place. Taiwan being defended against China though seems insane.

 

And what's the best strategy to avoid China invading Taiwan? Continually making relations between the two countries worse as the US seem to be doing, or trying to improve them so that maybe an invasion is avoided?

 

Of course I'm not expecting an answer to most of this, I think it's a batshit insane strategy though if we're supposed to be concerned about the people of Taiwan. For them not to invade surely the logic would be to try and keep relations between them both as good as possible. That's not what we're seeing happening at all from the US side of things. If China invades, like with Russia that's also their own fault making that decision, it doesn't mean that we're (as in us in the West) not making it more likely though with our actions.

[Jose Jones]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Maybe there's a way to avoid them invading the place other than war? Is the US going to war with Saudi Arabia too over imprisoning and torture? Maybe Israel too? They could do a war on Iran while they're there I guess.

 

The US isn't ever going to rule the planet to the extent that imprisonment and torture is eradicated I don't think. Not when they know it's going on in several countries and support them anyway.

 

Does anyone honestly think the US sending delegations over to Taiwan and supplying them with weapons is going to stop them from doing anything? Have you seen the size of China compared to Taiwan?

 

Do you think the US could sustain a war against China with some aircraft carriers or something when China are saying they have anti-ship hypersonic missiles? If they get destroyed maybe they'll pause the invasion until the US send some more to the area to make things a bit more fair?

 

Trump is supposed to have said : "Taiwan is like two feet away from China... We are eight thousand miles away. If they invade, there isn't a fucking thing we can do about it."

 

Maybe that's more accurate than what most of the warmongers are saying. Ukraine had a lot better chance because of how it could be supplied and the size of the place. Taiwan being defended against China though seems insane.

 

And what's the best strategy to avoid China invading Taiwan? Continually making relations between the two countries worse as the US seem to be doing, or trying to improve them so that maybe an invasion is avoided?

 

Of course I'm not expecting an answer to most of this, I think it's a batshit insane strategy though if we're supposed to be concerned about the people of Taiwan. For them not to invade surely the logic would be to try and keep relations between them both as good as possible. That's not what we're seeing happening at all from the US side of things. If China invades, like with Russia that's also their own fault making that decision, it doesn't mean that we're (as in us in the West) not making it more likely though with our actions.

 

 

China has repeatedly said it considers Taiwan part of China.  The only reason it has not invaded up until now, is the threat of US support.

So the best strategy to avoid China invading Taiwan, is either:

 

a. US continues to support Taiwan militarily

b. China changes its mind

 

There is a delicate dance, because both China and the US don't want to go into active conflict against each other - that would be end of world stuff.

So the only real current way to avoid war is for the US to provide just enough support to make China think twice.

Otherwise China is invading Taiwan and killing thousands of people.

 

This is also another key consideration to the war in Ukraine - if Russia had been allowed to do what it wanted, with no support for Ukraine from the US and allies, then China would have had carte blanche to just go and take Taiwan.

 

I agree that the tactics around providing support to Ukraine would be a lot different to that for Taiwan - I am sure that the US has war-gamed it though and no doubt the dumbarse Australian government would get involved.

 

China has obviously manoeuvred its way into being unattackable by the US, in a very similar way as Saudi Arabia.  Massive amounts of American corporate interest in its economy (not withstanding its military power).  This is why nothing is ever done about its treatment of the Rohingya people, or other atrocities.  

 

Obviously the US shoulders a great deal of blame for the UN having no real strength or peacekeeping ability these days, due to ignoring it in the invasion of Iraq.  

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

31 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

 

 

China has repeatedly said it considers Taiwan part of China.  The only reason it has not invaded up until now, is the threat of US support.

So the best strategy to avoid China invading Taiwan, is either:

 

a. US continues to support Taiwan militarily

b. China changes its mind

 

There is a delicate dance, because both China and the US don't want to go into active conflict against each other - that would be end of world stuff.

So the only real current way to avoid war is for the US to provide just enough support to make China think twice.

Otherwise China is invading Taiwan and killing thousands of people.

 

This is also another key consideration to the war in Ukraine - if Russia had been allowed to do what it wanted, with no support for Ukraine from the US and allies, then China would have had carte blanche to just go and take Taiwan.

 

I agree that the tactics around providing support to Ukraine would be a lot different to that for Taiwan - I am sure that the US has war-gamed it though and no doubt the dumbarse Australian government would get involved.

 

China has obviously manoeuvred its way into being unattackable by the US, in a very similar way as Saudi Arabia.  Massive amounts of American corporate interest in its economy (not withstanding its military power).  This is why nothing is ever done about its treatment of the Rohingya people, or other atrocities.  

 

Obviously the US shoulders a great deal of blame for the UN having no real strength or peacekeeping ability these days, due to ignoring it in the invasion of Iraq. 

 

Yeah it'd be good if they could change their mind and if the UN could actually work in a situation like this too. It's sad to think that if these were normal people it shouldn't be hard to think of them saying something like "OK, Ukraine and Taiwan are clearly potential flashpoints here that could bring about major wars, so maybe we should agree that these countries remain neutral and not weaponised or meddled in by any of us for the sake of peace."

 

But as we know we're not dealing with normal people here. They probably have more agendas on the go than we can imagine and the rest of us have to deal with it. It's fucking annoying and I hope one day we can be past this stupid shit without having destroyed most of our species.

[M_B]

Why can't everyone agree to let Taiwan and Ukraine do what they want? 

[SasaS]

Because everyone knows American interests can only be bad for you, never good or neutral.

[ZonkoVille77]

9 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I didn't say the UK wasn't fucked but the US isn't doing too well either at the rate it's going I don't think. Again with Taiwan we keep seeing reports of war and the US military being involved, but where's any talk of peace? Or are we cavemen again that can only settle issues with weapons? It's bizarre.

 

Maybe if the US is so serious about peace and democracy like they say they could look at closing down some of the hundreds of military installations they have all over the planet, stop meddling in the affairs of so many other countries and focus on the 30 trillion of debt they have instead.

 

And the BRICS alliance is a big concern for the US if it's not prepared for a multipolar world, trying to isolate Russia with sanctions has sped this whole process up by the looks of it. But Putin has said multipolar world too so that must be his propaganda at work again surely.

 

More countries are moving on from using dollars so much though and things are changing. The US and EU can't dominate the planet like they've done so much in the past, we need to move on. So it looks like it's either multipolar or war. It's down to the clowns in the US and supporting countries to decide on militarism or looking for a more peaceful way of getting through this. That's going to require a US that's not so led by weapons contractors and warmongers in agencies, think tanks and the military though, so it's probably not going to be an easy path. I don't think Biden is going to deliver much on that either.

 

The idea that the US is just concerned about democracy and the people of Ukraine and Taiwan is comical at this stage.

 

It's posts like this where you let your mask slip.

 

Your hatred for the US blinds you against Russian aggression. You say you want peace, as we all do, but you're more concerned about arguing that the 'US is all bad' in a thread about a war between Russia and Ukraine. The actual definition of 'Whataboutery'.

 

I don't think any of us here would deny that the US has meddled in the affairs of sovereign countries all across the world. I'm not a fan of US politics, Military or their overall superiority complexes either. But I wouldn't be focusing on the US when it was Russia who invaded Ukraine.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, M_B said:

Why can't everyone agree to let Taiwan and Ukraine do what they want? 

 

Maybe because Russia, China and the US can't be trusted to stop fucking around in those countries.

 

33 minutes ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

It's posts like this where you let your mask slip.

 

There's no mask, just read about some of the history and not happy with how the US has manipulated the country leading up to this. At first I thought it was just the coup in 2014, it goes back way further though. To say again for the 20th time or whatever, I don't want Russia in Ukraine and would prefer them out of there eventually.

 

edit - to note, I actually really like the US and have done for most of my life, but I'm talking about the country itself and a lot of the general population, writers, artists, musicians, etc. I just don't like what their gov, military, think tanks, corps do so often around the world. A lot of Americans share the same views too. I'm not interested in hating the US.

[SasaS]

Back in the real world and further on the tanks issue, Bild's political editor is confused that after all the talk, Finland and Spain are giving Ukraine as many as 9 tanks between them, out of 500 they supposedly have.

 

[SasaS]

One year down, four to go.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

 

[TheHowieLama]

Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday that the only way for Moscow to ensure a lasting peace with Ukraine was to push back the borders of hostile states as far as possible, even if that meant the frontiers of NATO member Poland.

Medvedev, who is now deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council, made the comments in a message on his Telegram account exactly a year after Russia sent tens of thousands of troops into Ukraine in what it called a "special military operation" to protect Russian speakers and ensure its own security.

 

[Jarvinja Ilnow]

This should enrage 25%-33% of Merseyside:

 

 

[SasaS]

Potentially a very shrewd move by Zelensky regarding China. He can get them to openly support Ukraine's territorial integrity, or make them admit that what they actually mean is territorial integrity of Russia's annexations.  

[Ne Moe Imya]

On 22/02/2023 at 23:08, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah it'd be good if they could change their mind and if the UN could actually work in a situation like this too. It's sad to think that if these were normal people it shouldn't be hard to think of them saying something like "OK, Ukraine and Taiwan are clearly potential flashpoints here that could bring about major wars, so maybe we should agree that these countries remain neutral and not weaponised or meddled in by any of us for the sake of peace."

 

Setting aside the (obviously massively important) issue that you're totally ignoring the desires of the Ukrainians and Taiwanese, this sounds sensible until you realise that you can't have peace that is only agreed to by one side.

 

So it doesn't matter if the US/NATO/EU/whatever agree that the Ukraine should be neutral territory, as long as Russia doesn't agree then there will be a war there. Essentially Russia has guaranteed that there will be a war - the only question is, will they get what they want through that war or won't they.

 

Same with Taiwan. It's fine for the West to say "Taiwan should be neutral and not weaponised." But as long as China doesn't agree, and they clearly don't, then you only have two choices left - either support Taiwan militarily or just let the Chinese take over. Because you can't just have one side agree to any potential peace agreement if the other side doesn't agree. They'll just keep on attacking whenever it's convenient for them.

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

 

Setting aside the (obviously massively important) issue that you're totally ignoring the desires of the Ukrainians and Taiwanese, this sounds sensible until you realise that you can't have peace that is only agreed to by one side.

 

So it doesn't matter if the US/NATO/EU/whatever agree that the Ukraine should be neutral territory, as long as Russia doesn't agree then there will be a war there. Essentially Russia has guaranteed that there will be a war - the only question is, will they get what they want through that war or won't they.

 

Same with Taiwan. It's fine for the West to say "Taiwan should be neutral and not weaponised." But as long as China doesn't agree, and they clearly don't, then you only have two choices left - either support Taiwan militarily or just let the Chinese take over. Because you can't just have one side agree to any potential peace agreement if the other side doesn't agree. They'll just keep on attacking whenever it's convenient for them.

 

The way I see it the US and Russia came together in Ukraine to make sure there was war. Russia invaded and started the actual war I get that, but how does it stop? If Russia aren't leaving then do we just watch this go on until there's 200k, 300k, 500k, 1m Ukrainians dead? Or does the Ukrainian gov at some point start talking about a peace deal if they're not taking territory back and people are still being killed at the same rates?

 

I just want peace, Taiwan is a difficult thing obviously because China are saying it's theirs but Taiwan want to stay independent. I'd prefer them to stay independent but if the US keeps sending more and more weapons (which we know they will) then it doesn't seem like the most intelligent way of going about peace. We again come back to "weapons for peace" instead of any type of dialogue.

 

Where are the US offers of dialogue with China on Taiwan? Even if China reject it maybe keep trying? If they can keep sending weapons and delegations to Taiwan why can't they keep trying to talk with China? Is it too scary to talk with China but not scary to keep sending weapons to Taiwan? There's no current war between China and Taiwan, no "China have to leave Taiwan for there to be negotiations" because there's no war at the moment, so what's going on?

 

"That's for Taiwan to decide" I guess. But if the US are making things worse with their delegations and weapons, maybe they're a factor here?

 

Similar with "That's for Ukraine to decide". If we stop sending weapons over there it's over, so it's impossible that it's just for Ukraine to decide. We're actively keeping the war going so we're a factor too. We can't pretend it's only for them to decide when they're only able to fight at all because of our weapons.

 

Naftali Bennett basically said in an interview that the West blocked a peace deal he tried to work on for Ukraine (before he tried walking it back, maybe it got more attention than he wanted it to), our own clown Johnson doesn't seem to have wanted any peace deal and Zelensky himself signed a decree saying that it was impossible to have talks with Putin.

 

If Russia aren't leaving, Ukrainians keep getting killed and injured and talks are continually blocked, where does it end?

 

I'm sure Russia still have a list of demands that are unacceptable to Ukraine, but at same stage maybe Ukraine can change that if they actually talk. It could help save a lot of lives. And yes Russia could save a lot of lives by leaving right now, but we can see that they're not doing that so we have to try and work out what happens if they don't leave if we don't want a war that could eventually get a lot worse.

[M_B]

33 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

If Russia aren't leaving, Ukrainians keep getting killed and injured and talks are continually blocked, where does it end?

 

Your argument is based entirely on the asumption the Russians can't be defeated.

 

If Ukraine can't force the Russians out of Ukraine then there will clearly have to be negotiations, but while the Ukrainians feel like they can defeat Russia - and this Spring and Summer will be a good indicator - then they deserve to be given the means to try don't they?

 

The real issue will be how to stop the Russians coming back in 10 years time once they have rebuilt their military.

[Red Phoenix]

51 minutes ago, M_B said:

Your argument is based entirely on the asumption the Russians can't be defeated.

 

If Ukraine can't force the Russians out of Ukraine then there will clearly have to be negotiations, but while the Ukrainians feel like they can defeat Russia - and this Spring and Summer will be a good indicator - then they deserve to be given the means to try don't they?

 

The real issue will be how to stop the Russians coming back in 10 years time once they have rebuilt their military.

 

Russians seem a lot more entrenched now but yeah I guess we just wait and see what happens with this Ukrainian offensive.

 

[SasaS]

Mediazona updated the Russian KIA count to coincide with the war anniversary, the update is for 12 days only and they still found over 1,000 new names, so the list reached 15,136 people that are known to have died in the war in Ukraine. Their count Icontinues to confirm reports of high Russian casualties over the past 2-3 month period.

 

Since our latest update on February 12, over one thousand names was added to the list of casualties, with 200 of them being mobilised soldiers.

One year into the war, the number of Russian military casualties verified through open sources has now surpassed the officially confirmed number of deaths of Soviet soldiers during the nine-year War in Afghanistan (15,051).

Casualties among those recruited from prisons by the Wagner PMC remain high. This is our second consecutive update where this number has doubled. Two weeks ago, 790 deaths of inmates were confirmed, now the toll is 1,310.

The increase isn’t due to new casualties alone. After going through records of soldiers who were labeled as “no data,” “volunteers,” and “PMC,” we found about 400 court decisions which indicate that these people were still supposed to be behind bars. This allowed us to include them in the “imnates” category.

After these corrections, the overall number of “non-inmate” mercenaries from Wagner PMC, whom we count separately, has dropped. That being said, PMC casualties still remain high, but are not growing as fast as in our previous update.

Deaths of 1,200 mobilised soldiers have been confirmed. However, we are certain that even within our own dataset this number is higher. We can only claim a person was recruited under Vladimir Putin’s September mobilisation decree if their obituary clearly states this fact.

https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/11/casualties_eng

[Anubis]

EDIT: We’ll I got had there.

[Bruce Spanner]

20 minutes ago, Anubis said:

Teenage girls - check.

Groomed by right wing terrorists - check.

Spirited away to foreign lands to become involved in fighting by terrorists - check.

Married off to older nazis - check.

 

Why do we want to bring them back? If we’re being consistent, why not revoke their citizenship?

 

*For the avoidance of doubt we shouldn’t be revoking anyone’s citizenship*

 

Anyway, relax everyone, Suella is on the case…
 

 

 

 

 

Whoosh..

[TheHowieLama]

Is there such a thing as warwashing?

 

Saudi Arabia has announced $400 million in humanitarian aid for Ukraine as the country's foreign minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud met President Volodymyr Zelensky and top Ukrainian officials on Feb. 26 in Kyiv.

The visit was the first by an official Saudi delegation to Ukraine since the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries in 1993.

[SasaS]

Maybe they are more interested in the know-how on fighting Iranian drones than warwashing?