Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[aRdja]

25 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

What sneering attitude? I'm giving my opinion, which is that there is no Brexit that would be better than Remain.

 

I already know you're a cheerleader for "respecting the referendum result". I call myself a democrat because this is a parliamentary democracy, not a direct democracy, and the referendum was advisory only. There is absolutely nothing in law that compels the government, or any other government, to implement the referendum result.

 

If we held a referendum to kill all Australians, and the public voted for the proposition, would you be demanding it was implemented, BECAUSE DEMOCRACY? Or would you be pointing out, like me, that such a referendum is completely illegitimate?

There are prosperous countries in Europe outside the EU e.g., Switzerland, Norway, Iceland. The UK have had a nice head start too. The government decided to ask the people for their views, and the people have spoken. To dismiss the result of the referendum *is* undemocratic. We had a referendum on gay marriage in Australia last year, and the result was implemented within a couple of weeks. To me that feels like democracy done properly. Both remainers and brexiters should’ve compromised and focused on getting the best deal possible.

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

There are prosperous countries in Europe outside the EU e.g., Switzerland, Norway, Iceland. The UK have had a nice head start. The government decided to ask the people for their views, and the people have spoken. To dismiss the result of the referendum *is* undemocratic. We had a referendum on gay marriage in Australia last year, and the result was implemented within a couple of weeks. To me that feels like democracy done properly. Both remainers and brexiters should’ve compromised and focused on getting the best deal possible.

 

Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are all within the EU single market. They have freedom of movement. Will you explain to me how that can be squared with "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union"?

 

There was ZERO chance of compromise, because the Tories (and Labour leadership) were intent on achieving a hard Brexit that ended freedom of movement. They weren't interested in a Norway or Switzerland-style deal.

 

It's not even slightly undemocratic to dismiss the referendum result if there's a second referendum that overturns it, or if someone is elected with a mandate of overturning the result. 

[polymerpunkah]

So if the referendum had been held back when the Lib Dems were calling for it--Clegg, Swinson, etc--and the result had gone against them, would they then have called for the referendum result to be ignored?

 

 

 

 

[Megadrive Man]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Steaming fucking bullshit. Every single word of it.

How is it?

 

The first part is literally what happened. The second part is what I think will happen based on previous history.

[Megadrive Man]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

So half the electorate are wrong then.

 

I thought Labour under Corbyn was supposed to be highly principled, doing the right thing, not sitting on the fence trying to grub votes from both sides?

How can it be doing the right thing by ignoring half of the electorate and 5 million of its own voters?

 

Do you think that by just cancelling the referendum result all the Brexiteers will just magically disappear? 

 

[Duff Man]

This whole thing has broken people's brains, seemingly beyond repair, but it's really quite simple: if you want a 2nd ref, and no deal or a still quite hard up the arse Boris deal taken off the table, vote Labour. Anything else is a pipe dream.

[Megadrive Man]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

What sneering attitude? I'm giving my opinion, which is that there is no Brexit that would be better than Remain.

 

I already know you're a cheerleader for "respecting the referendum result". I call myself a democrat because this is a parliamentary democracy, not a direct democracy, and the referendum was advisory only. There is absolutely nothing in law that compels the government, or any other government, to implement the referendum result.

 

If we held a referendum to kill all Australians, and the public voted for the proposition, would you be demanding it was implemented, BECAUSE DEMOCRACY? Or would you be pointing out, like me, that such a referendum is completely illegitimate?

 

What was the point in holding a referendum if we had no intention of honouring the result? 

 

Why would we hold a referendum on killing Australian people?

Do you think leaving the EU is comparable to murdering an entire country?

[Megadrive Man]

The only way to defeat Brexit in the long run is actually to educate people that it's not the EU that's the problem, It's the Tories, The tabloids, the tax dodgers etc.

[Strontium]

54 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

How is it?

 

The first part is literally what happened. The second part is what I think will happen based on previous history.

 

It's not even close to what happened. And there is zero chance of your prediction coming true.

 

I've pledged to give £500 to charity and quit the forum if I'm wrong. Will you match it if you're wrong? Money where mouth is time.

[Strontium]

28 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

What was the point in holding a referendum if we had no intention of honouring the result? 

 

What are you asking me for? I never wanted a referendum in the first place. It was badly conceived and in my view illegitimate, not least because of the massive Russian interference. 

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, polymerpunkah said:

So if the referendum had been held back when the Lib Dems were calling for it--Clegg, Swinson, etc--and the result had gone against them, would they then have called for the referendum result to be ignored?

 

Well, I imagine there would have been some actual coherent plan for leaving, so the situation wouldn't be remotely the same. But you're dealing with hypotheticals here.

[polymerpunkah]

Why assume there would be a coherent plan in place?

 

I thought the LibDems were opposed to leaving when they were proposing their referendum--do you think they would have come up with that coherent plan, just in case they lost?

 

 

[Duff Man]

Even O'Brien, darling of the FBPE crowd and expert in pretending to not understand Labour's position, still concedes through gritted teeth that the only way out of this shit is actually voting Labour.

[A Red]

12 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Why do you need a party leader to tell you how to vote in the referendum? Can you not make your own mind up?

 

The people negotiating the deal will be negotiating acceptable terms on which to leave.  My understanding is that talk of the party "remaining neutral" means that MPs will be free to campaign to leave or remain.

 

It's a good-faith position that respects the electorate. 

The labour position on Brexit going into a general election is obviously not a clear and straight forward one. This is can be seen by the above, you are probably Corbyns/Labours most vocal supporter on here and do not actually understand the policy yourself.

 

A labour government will tell you what to vote in the referendum but only after it has negotiated a deal and following a special conference to decide which way it is.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

7 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

Do you think that by just cancelling the referendum result all the Brexiteers will just magically disappear? 

 

I think he does. In the same way that the Tory/Brexit Party mob expect that Remain supporters will just disappear if they deliver a No Deal Brexit. 

 

It's fucking nuts.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

7 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

The only way to defeat Brexit in the long run is actually to educate people that it's not the EU that's the problem, It's the Tories, The tabloids, the tax dodgers etc.

Or we could just carry on squabbling, picking sides of the fence that the Tories built.

 

That might work. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

13 hours ago, A Red said:

I'm not arguing against another referendum just that, as a voter, you should know what a parties policy is on something like remain/stay. As Rico stated, as a staunch remainer, how can he now vote labour? Just as if you are mad keen to leave, how can you vote labour? Far better Tory or Lib Dems.

 

Seems like a daft tactic to me.

Well, quite easily. Labour are the only chance of remaining. 

[A Red]

23 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, quite easily. Labour are the only chance of remaining. 

I would disagree as there is no guarantee Labour will support a remain campaign. I take your point but if the Lib Dems have a chance in his constituency they are party to vote for. 

[Dr Nowt]

This is being handed out at the Labour conference. They’ve gone fully off the deep end this week. We’re going to have 5 years of Johnson and the untold damage it will do.

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, A Red said:

I would disagree as there is no guarantee Labour will support a remain campaign. I take your point but if the Lib Dems have a chance in his constituency they are party to vote for. 

Yes, we very clearly disagree. As Lib Dems have roughly 0 chance of winning a majority, they are not the party to vote for if you want a choice on whether or not we are going to leave. Labour have a chance of either winning a majority or being the larger party in a coalition. Lib Dems won't be able to get the Tories to revoke article 50, even if they went into coalition with them - and if they went into coalition and voted to leave, they'd be completely finished as a party. Labour already campaigned to remain, but the vote is in. They are now saying their position is to get a deal to leave as instructed, then put that to a vote with remain on the ballot. That's perfectly acceptable, and actually it's probably the only reasonable thing to do at this point. 

 

Calling it 'mental' with no real attempt to say why other than your own view on what they should do doesn't really mean or achieve anything. They campaigned remain, the voters chose leave, they will go and try to get a deal, then people can vote on that deal or remain. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Brownie]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes, we very clearly disagree. As Lib Dems have roughly 0 chance of winning a majority, they are not the party to vote for if you want a choice on whether or not we are going to leave. Labour have a chance of either winning a majority or being the larger party in a coalition. Lib Dems won't be able to get the Tories to revoke article 50, even if they went into coalition with them - and if they went into coalition and voted to leave, they'd be completely finished as a party. Labour already campaigned to remain, but the vote is in. They are now saying their position is to get a deal to leave as instructed, then put that to a vote with remain on the ballot. That's perfectly acceptable, and actually it's probably the only reasonable thing to do at this point. 

 

Calling it 'mental' with no real attempt to say why other than your own view on what they should do doesn't really mean or achieve anything. They campaigned remain, the voters chose leave, they will go and try to get a deal, then people can vote on that deal or remain. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Mate you’re wasting your time, he either doesn’t get it, or he’s just trolling.

[A Red]

2 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes, we very clearly disagree. As Lib Dems have roughly 0 chance of winning a majority, they are not the party to vote for if you want a choice on whether or not we are going to leave. Labour have a chance of either winning a majority or being the larger party in a coalition. Lib Dems won't be able to get the Tories to revoke article 50, even if they went into coalition with them - and if they went into coalition and voted to leave, they'd be completely finished as a party. Labour already campaigned to remain, but the vote is in. They are now saying their position is to get a deal to leave as instructed, then put that to a vote with remain on the ballot. That's perfectly acceptable, and actually it's probably the only reasonable thing to do at this point. 

 

Calling it 'mental' with no real attempt to say why other than your own view on what they should do doesn't really mean or achieve anything. They campaigned remain, the voters chose leave, they will go and try to get a deal, then people can vote on that deal or remain. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

You have to look at your constituency and its history when deciding what to vote if you want to leave. Yes, overall Lib Dems wont win power but in Ricos area e.g. they are 2nd with nearly 2 x the labour vote. Clearly they are the party of choice to remain in that constituency.

 

It is mental because its a confusing policy that, as i pointed out, even AoT didnt understand it. Far better would have been for Labour to come out as a remain party that would hold another referendum.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Brownie said:

Mate you’re wasting your time, he either doesn’t get it, or he’s just trolling.

Yeah, you're not wrong mate. I dunno, it just seemed pretty sensible stuff to me. I have hit out at Labour for their stance on Brexit, but this is a thing they're doing that I support. I want to either stay in the EU or if we have to leave then we need to do so with a deal that leaves as tightly integrated as possible to protect the economy. Labour, quote obviously, offers the best and only real chance of that. 

[A Red]

2 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Mate you’re wasting your time, he either doesn’t get it, or he’s just trolling.

Thought you were ignoring me. I'm just putting up a point of view, how the fuck that is trolling i have no idea

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, A Red said:

 

It is mental because its a confusing policy that, as i pointed out, even AoT didnt understand it. Far better would have been for Labour to come out as a remain party that would hold another referendum.

Then not win a single seat north of Watford, usher in a thumping Tory majority, and exit the EU with no deal.

 

In what possible way would that benefit anyone that wants to remain?