Go fuck yourselves FSG

[Bobby Hundreds]

The entire club is in no man's land. I think we are in deep shit.

[Kevin D]

7 hours ago, Anubis said:

 

 

Grinch,  come on. The French copper bit was out of order. You wouldn’t tell somebody that you wished they’d been crushed at Hillsborough, and you must know from everything posted that the Paris debacle was damn close to  being a second serious loss of life at a football match for Liverpool fans.

 

Nonody is asking you to row back your antipathy for FSG or Scott, but I reckon you’re a decent enough person to recognise that comment was out of order, and apologise for it. We all go too far sometimes and I appreciate that you can feel a bit of  a fool -we’ve all been there - but sometimes you have to suck up the embarrassment and apologise because it’s the right thing to do.

Spot on, Paul.

 

Grinch is probably just having a bad day, Reds don’t normally say(inexcusable) things like that to each other.

[Scott_M]

I’ve change my negs of Grinch to reps. 
 

Gotta laugh really. 

[Scott_M]

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

The entire club is in no man's land. I think we are in deep shit.

No it isn't.

 

Eight months ago we came within a bug's dick of winning everything. This season we've got a bit of a regression to the mean; we're undergoing a transition, which has barely started in midfield; and we've had a ridiculous amount of injuries.  Still, we could end up with silverware and/or Champions League qualification.

 

Taking a broader view, we have a lot of excellent players in our squad (even if they're underperforming right now), the world's best manager, one of the best stadiums in the country (in the process of getting better), superb training facilities and we're financially sound.

 

Other clubs dream of being in "deep shit" like that.

[VladimirIlyich]

12 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No it isn't.

 

Eight months ago we came within a bug's dick of winning everything. This season we've got a bit of a regression to the mean; we're undergoing a transition, which has barely started in midfield; and we've had a ridiculous amount of injuries.  Still, we could end up with silverware and/or Champions League qualification.

 

Taking a broader view, we have a lot of excellent players in our squad (even if they're underperforming right now), the world's best manager, one of the best stadiums in the country (in the process of getting better), superb training facilities and we're financially sound.

 

Other clubs dream of being in "deep shit" like that.

We are not in deep shit,but we are in a bit of a quandary. I can't help feeling it all goes back to another spectacular media own goal by FSG when leaking the news that they were looking to sell the club. This has fizzled into 'looking for investment and 'looking for a part sale.' Along with the ticket pricing and planning to furlough staff gaffes I think this is another blunder in it's handling. It certainly hasn't helped the news around the club in general.

[Bobby Hundreds]

17 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No it isn't.

 

Eight months ago we came within a bug's dick of winning everything. This season we've got a bit of a regression to the mean; we're undergoing a transition, which has barely started in midfield; and we've had a ridiculous amount of injuries.  Still, we could end up with silverware and/or Champions League qualification.

 

Taking a broader view, we have a lot of excellent players in our squad (even if they're underperforming right now), the world's best manager, one of the best stadiums in the country (in the process of getting better), superb training facilities and we're financially sound.

 

Other clubs dream of being in "deep shit" like that.

Deep shit in reference to the whole club being for sale or.. club wanting investment. Klopp clearly wanting funds for players and none being there. The change in the higher ups at the club Mike Gordon moving positions, Edwards fucking off because he wants a new direction, his protégé Ward who was being trained as his replacement now leaving almost as soon as he got the role. A bit of a mess with the whole club doctor positions and Klopp often showing being irked by his sports scientists/medical team. We have contracts running down on players who will leave for free and a massive job on our hands to replace them. Deep shit is relative to our situation and it feels the club from being talked about as the best run club in the league if not Europe is falling apart a bit like our teams performances. Our drop has been drastic. There looks to be no direction, no pulling together and uncertainty in every single part of the club. Even when we have spent it doesn't look well thought out. 

[JohnnyH]

4 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

The entire club is in no man's land. I think we are in deep shit.

The internet is great. Liverpool are having a poor season so all of a sudden everything’s a disaster and we’re in massive shite. We almost won everything last season, but ignore that, it’s a poor season so clearly everything’s a disaster. 
 

Football fans remain the biggest toys out of the pram mewling quims in existence. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

The internet is great. Liverpool are having a poor season so all of a sudden everything’s a disaster and we’re in massive shite. We almost won everything last season, but ignore that, it’s a poor season so clearly everything’s a disaster. 
 

Football fans remain the biggest toys out of the pram mewling quims in existence. 

It's a forum. One I've used for years is speaking on it throwing my toys out the pram. Do you think I'm signing petitions or writing to the club, maybe phoning in radio stations to cry about things. Am i calling for anyone to be sacked or telling people we should protest. No. Theres no toys being thrown on my behalf. It's a dedicated Liverpool forum where people talk about the team and club. 

[Mook]

16 hours ago, Grinch said:

Same old cuck banging the FSG drum. Shame the French coppers didn’t give him a good kicking.

 

Completely out of fucking order this.

 

I disagree with Scott on the owners but he's helped me (& others on here) out with tickets many a time & I can assure you he's as decent a bloke as you could hope to meet.

 

Fine to strongly disagree with him & maybe even call him the odd nasty name or whatever but absolutely no need for that shite at all.

[Bjornebye]

16 hours ago, Scott_M said:

I’m not offering out a straightener. I’m happy for a bevy and chat.

 

At the end of the day, numerous supporters on numerous forums bleat about FSG continuously. Today was the 2nd protest in 18 months (there was one last season as well). 
 

Last season was a flop. I’m yet to see any evidence is a success. The majority of match going supporters seemingly don’t support it.
 

Nobody is happy the way this season has gone. IMO (and seemingly the majority of match going supporters) , FSG have done a lot more good than bad.
 

Either way, it seems we are in the last months of their stewardship (which makes any protest even more ridiculous). It sounds like some posters might get their wish of limitless transfer (ie blood) money soon enough. 

Last season was a flop? We won two cups and played every single match available culminating in missing out on the title by a whisker and losing a champions league final. Flop my arse. Gutting in some respects yes but a flop?! Tell you what I’d rip your arm off for that flop this season 

[Mook]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Last season was a flop? We won two cups and played every single match available culminating in missing out on the title by a whisker and losing a champions league final. Flop my arse. Gutting in some respects yes but a flop?! Tell you what I’d rip your arm off for that flop this season 

 

I think he meant the FSG Out protest was a flop.

[Bjornebye]

Ha yea, sorry Scott you fucking flop x

[Scott_M]

12 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Last season was a flop? We won two cups and played every single match available culminating in missing out on the title by a whisker and losing a champions league final. Flop my arse. Gutting in some respects yes but a flop?! Tell you what I’d rip your arm off for that flop this season 

Last seasons protest was a flop. 
 

Last seasons football was prettay, prettay good.

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

Last seasons protest was a flop. 
 

Last seasons football was prettay, prettay good.

What?

[Scott_M]

4 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

What?

 

 

You’re normally quite quick with the punchlines, you just woke up?

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Scott_M said:

 

 

You’re normally quite quick with the punchlines, you just woke up?

Ha, yes

[VladimirIlyich]

Scott,it's your fault for omitting a question mark.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

23 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Flop my arse. 

I'd rather not, mate.

[Bjornebye]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I'd rather not, mate.

You haven’t seen it yet 

[Scott_M]

9 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Scott,it's your fault for omitting a question mark.

Everything is my fault. 

[JohnnyH]

3 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

It's a forum. One I've used for years is speaking on it throwing my toys out the pram. Do you think I'm signing petitions or writing to the club, maybe phoning in radio stations to cry about things. Am i calling for anyone to be sacked or telling people we should protest. No. Theres no toys being thrown on my behalf. It's a dedicated Liverpool forum where people talk about the team and club. 

I used your response as an example, as it was ridiculously over the top.  But it’s a general comment as it’s all over the internet. It’s awash with Liverpool fans vastly over egging the current issues. It’s pathetic, quite frankly. 

[Scott_M]

A very interesting article.

 

https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/fsg-liverpool-transfer-spend-revenues-26051122
 

So, we spend more on agents fees and signing on fees which isn’t covered in the “wages : revenue : transfer” calculation, which causes a £105m gap between fees & recorded fees - would this not be the same for other clubs though? 
 

I don’t understand the Kirkby / ARE re-development bits. So FSG have us a low interest loan to upgrade the Main Stand but Kirkby / ARE have been paid for directly from the clubs accounts? So therefore a strain on finances. 
 

Is it basically saying short term pain, long term gain? How short term is short term? 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

A very interesting article.

 

https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/fsg-liverpool-transfer-spend-revenues-26051122
 

So, we spend more on agents fees and signing on fees which isn’t covered in the “wages : revenue : transfer” calculation, which causes a £105m gap between fees & recorded fees - would this not be the same for other clubs though? 
 

I don’t understand the Kirkby / ARE re-development bits. So FSG have us a low interest loan to upgrade the Main Stand but Kirkby / ARE have been paid for directly from the clubs accounts? So therefore a strain on finances. 
 

Is it basically saying short term pain, long term gain? How short term is short term? 

 

As FSG are still working towards US sports expansion and it would seem a fair guess as they are trying to sell us, we might be part of the financing solution for such a thing. It would make perfect sense currently for FSG to not pick up the debt to finance these projects, as they may be looking for billions in the near future to be able to grow in the US if we are not sold, so won't want to be over burdened with debt at that point. With the cost of borrowing increasing though, it would make a lot of sense for them to either be able to sell us or get more outside investment like they did with Redbird and used for their hockey team. 

[Scott_M]

From The Athletic today, I've tried to format as best I can...

 

Quote

Have Liverpool risen above Manchester United to be the third-biggest revenue-generating club in the world?

Yes, and this is the first time they have finished above their arch-rivals in the 26 years Deloitte has been recording and analysing the financial performance of clubs.

 

The figures in the report show Liverpool recorded revenues of €701.7million (£594.3m*) for the 2021-22 season, a significant increase from €550.4m (£487.4m) in the previous one.

 

Comparatively, after being very close to each other in the 2020-21 table, United also experienced a post-pandemic rebound but did not see the same scale of increase (18 per cent to Liverpool’s 22 per cent), recording a revenue of €688.6million (£583.2m) — up from €558m (£494.1m) in the previous year. So, Liverpool edged in front.

 

How much do Liverpool make and how have they done that?

Before we break down the huge revenue, it is important to note these figures do not include player trading. Rather, this is purely based on three strands: broadcast, commercial and matchday income.

 

Liverpool increased in all three areas to record their highest totals. They brought in €112million from matchday revenue, €314m from broadcast money and €275m in commercial income.

 

Liverpool were lagging behind in matchday revenue when FSG arrived in 2010 but the club’s investment in the new Main Stand at Anfield continues to reap the benefits. They were among only five clubs to have matchday revenue above €100million — which was helped by Liverpool competing in 63 games over the course of 2021-22. Of those matches, 30 were at home —, four more than in 2018-19, which brought in €95m.

 

This revenue stream will continue to grow from August, with the extension of the Anfield Road end adding a further 6,000 seats to the capacity.

 

Liverpool’s tilt at a historic quadruple meant they gained plenty of prize money, and therefore broadcast revenue, on their way to three finals, especially the Champions League final, as well as another second-place finish in the Premier League.

They brought in €314million from broadcast partners during 2021-22, which was an increase of €10m from the season before, and €15m more than the pre-pandemic levels of 2018-19. The club look set to take a hit in this area this season, with less success and a potentially much lower final league position, which influences the size of merit payments received when the campaign ends.

 

It also appears Liverpool are beginning to benefit from a lucrative kit deal they signed with Nike in 2020, as their commercial income increased by €37million to €275m.

 

The hope is this will continue to grow with Standard Chartered’s new front-of-shirt sponsorship deal beginning next season and they will also be looking for a sleeve partner as their deal with Expedia expires in the summer.

 

Which clubs have they overtaken and why?

As well as Manchester United, Liverpool also jumped ahead of Paris Saint-Germain (€654.2million), Bayern Munich (€653.6m) and Barcelona (€638.2 million).

 

The Champions League final run, and subsequent broadcast money windfall, played a significant role in them overtaking four elite clubs.

 

United, for example, brought in more matchday revenue (€126million) and commercial revenue (€309m), but generated significantly less broadcast money (€254m) after a sixth-place Premier League finish and making a round of 16 exit from the Champions League.

 

The Premier League’s popularity and global TV deals mean its clubs continue to bring in more money than their European counterparts — 11 of the top 20 clubs on the Deloitte list are from England’s top division and 16 (80 per cent of the division) from the top 30.

 

Therefore, while Paris Saint-Germain earned significantly more in commercial (€383million) and matchday revenue (€132m), they received significantly less than Liverpool in broadcast money (€139m).

 

Bayern also brought in over €100million more commercially than Liverpool (€378m to €275m), but got significantly less from both matchday revenue (€68m) and broadcast income (€207m).

 

Those two clubs went out at the last-16 and quarter-final stages of the Champions League respectively. Barcelona on the other hand, had to settle for a Europa League knockout-phase spot after failing to advance from the Champions League’s group stage significantly affecting the total broadcast money arriving at Camp Nou, which ended up being €251million — €39m less than the previous season.

 

The Catalan side’s commercial revenue is yet to return to pre-pandemic levels, when it was as high as €384million.

While teams around them saw a significant increase compared to last season, Barcelona’s only rose by €7m.

So why aren’t they spending loads on transfers?

On the surface, Liverpool have spent a significant amount of money on transfers this season with Darwin Nunez the most expensive for an initial £65million, and the most recent arrival, Cody Gakpo, costing them an initial £37m. They also added Calvin Ramsay and Fabio Carvalho in permanent deals, and signed Arthur on loan.

 

However, when you consider they sold Sadio Mane, Neco Williams, Takumi Minamino and Ben Davies for around a combined £70million, their net spend sits at around £50m.

 

The analysis by Deloitte does not paint the full picture because it does not include player-trading profits.

Given Liverpool’s prudence in the market and sensible net spend every year, it would not affect their revenue significantly, but it would add to it.

 

FSG has never been an ownership group that keeps throwing its own money at the club to facilitate transfers. It has always run Liverpool prudently, with the money the club generates being reinvested as part of a self-sustaining business model.

This is different to what Arsenal and Chelsea have done this season, for example, with the Kroenke family gambling on investment to try to push the north Londoners back into the Champions League, while Todd Boehly and company have looked to re-shape the squad at Stamford Bridge entirely by exploiting the amortisation process and signing players to long-term deals.

 

It points to why FSG has considered selling Liverpool and is seeking investment in part to facilitate a new rebuild as the side that has been the foundation of the club’s recent successes moves on.

 

In recent years, led by Michael Edwards, Liverpool have not only recruited smartly but also sold well. But there are fewer saleable players now. Without a Philippe Coutinho to help bankroll additions either, as his sale to Barcelona did when Liverpool signed Virgil van Dijk and Alisson in record-breaking deals, that is more difficult.

 

What it does not mean is they cannot spend at all; and it raises a bigger question about the scouting department and trying to find lower-priced gems. Not every transfer has to be a huge outlay.

 

What are they spending money on?

This is the key question — or more specifically: where is the money going?

Since arriving, FSG has not taken money out of the club, as the Glazer family have at Manchester United. It has all been reinvested.

 

The biggest outgoing is wages which, according to the Deloitte Money League, soared to £368.5million for last season, up from £314.5m in 2020-21. That wage bill is one of the highest in world football.

 

It equates to 62 per cent of revenue. That is a healthy percentage for football clubs, but when you take it away from the £594.3m revenue generated, it eats into a large chunk of it.

 

Liverpool’s incentivised contracts reward players for success, which they had plenty of last season; that will have contributed to this, along with new deals for Fabinho, Van Dijk and Trent Alexander-Arnold in 2021.

Mohamed Salah’s new bumper contract, signed last summer, will also come into play for this season’s accounts.

There are also the day-to-day costs which get forgotten about, from the squad’s travel to matches to the electricity bills, as well as tax payments.

 

Liverpool spent £22.1m on agent fees, while the amortisation of player registrations sat at £107.8m from the 2020-21 season.

 

Amortisation is an accounting practice for writing down the cost of acquiring assets, with the key ones in the case of football clubs being the players.

 

It represents the outlay on incomings, with the players’ value spread out across the contracts they sign. So if Liverpool bought a player for £50million and gave him a five-year contract, the amortisation would be £10m each year, as their value decreases from £50m to £40m the following year and so on. It is another big cost of doing business for a club and usually makes up the second biggest cost after wages.

 

The £80million Anfield Road development has been financed by the club and the building of their £50m new training ground was another infrastructure cost.

 

It provides some explanation as to why, even in recent years, Liverpool’s spending has not produced a significant net spend outlay.

 

COVID-19 was a significant factor but even before that, Liverpool signed only Minamino, Adrian, Harvey Elliott and Sepp van den Berg in the summer window that followed their 2018-19 Champions League final win.

How does their transfer spend compare with other clubs around them?

According to the website Transfermarkt, Liverpool spent £81.27million last summer, which was the lowest of the ‘Big Six’ by a fair margin.

 

Arsenal were the second lowest (£118.9m) followed by Manchester City (£125.6m), Tottenham Hotspur (£152.9m), Manchester United (£214.2m) and the biggest spenders, Chelsea (£253.79m).

 

What best illustrates Liverpool’s situation is the clubs’ corresponding net spends.

While their net spend was £8.6m, only City’s was lower as they made an £18.4m profit. Meanwhile, Arsenal (£97.4m), Tottenham (£118m), United (£203.9m) and Chelsea (£204.5m) had significantly higher net spends.

If we look further back, Twitter account Swiss Ramble posted a thread from April 2021, detailing net spend in the Premier League between 2015-16 and 2019-20, and Liverpool’s was £278million. It was the sixth highest over that period, but lower than Chelsea (£317m), Arsenal (£363m) and more significantly less than those of United (£655m) and City (£704m).

 

The last time Liverpool registered a significant net spend was in the summer of 2018, which included deals for Alisson, Fabinho, Naby Keita and Xherdan Shaqiri and, according to Transfermarkt, led to a net spend of £140.9million.

It is the type of summer Liverpool now need again to shape the squad.

 

The pursuit of Borussia Dortmund’s England midfielder Jude Bellingham will be the big test to see if FSG remains all in and willing to push the boat out and spend outside of its self-sustaining model.

 

Is this a financial fair play (FFP) issue too?

In short, no. 

 

Liverpool are in no danger of FFP breaches even with the effects of COVID-19, which saw the club make losses in each of the last two years of accounts. 

 

Over the 12 years of FSG’s ownership, they have made a loss six times and a profit on five occasions, including the huge £106million net profit in 2017-18 — which can partly explain the spending of the following summer mentioned above. 

In total, FSG made £27.3million in profit between 2010-2021, largely due to the work it had to do when it inherited the club to turn it around and begin to grow it on and off the pitch. 

 

Even with UEFA’s updated FFP rules, Liverpool have little to worry about.

 

The key element of the new regulations is the “squad cost control”, which is basically a soft salary cap. Like the existing “break-even” limit, it works by tying the amount you can spend on your team to how much you earn but it is a more sophisticated and targeted measure than the old rule.

 

Clubs will only be allowed to spend 70 per cent of revenue on the team. This is calculated by adding up the wage bills for the squad and coaching staff, and how much the club spent on signing players in that season, including agents’ fees, subtracting any profits made from sales, and working out what the figure all that gives you is as a percentage of total revenues.

 

If we were to apply that formula to Liverpool’s last set of publicly available accounts — the ones for the 2020-21 season, when they made a small loss — the result would be 73.4 per cent.

 

However, we know revenue shot up by 22 per cent last season and can assume costs were broadly similar. So, the numbers which make up the numerator in that sum did not change much but the bigger number in the denominator did, which will bring Liverpool under that 70 per cent limit.

 

Furthermore, clubs do not even need to get below that target this season, because the new rule is being phased in: it’s 90 per cent next season, then 80 per cent in 2024-25, before reaching the desired goal in 2025-26.

 

 

To me, this is such a nothing article.

 

I've been clear that I think FSG have been good for the club and a lot of the stuff written about them is bollocks, even so, articles on this get on my pip - it literally answers nothing.

 

I don't care about our rivals spending, I only care about us and why we aren't addressing our issues. 

 

Saying the Deloitte figures is fine, then saying we also pay agents fee's, electricity, travel to games, tax etc is ridiculous. Surely other clubs pay these as well, so what is the point in mentioning it?

 

Similarly, amortisation. Although it's handy to explain to people who might not understand it, what it is. It doesn't explain what we spend each year or how it compares to other clubs. Surely it isn't massively much, certainly not compared to our rivals.

 

The only difference I can see are:

 

1. FSG don't put money in. Fine, they never have. They also don't take out. No problems.
2. The ARE / Kirkby re-developments, costing £130m. To me, thats a fucking sizeable figure not to ask any questions on - thats likely Bellingham or Caicedo & Kone / Thuram in this window.

I don't have an issue with the club paying for the redevelopments, I would like to know...

• Why this hasn’t been, like the Main Stand, financed by FSG and paid back by the club at (I assume) a longer term and cheaper rate?
• How does this outlay effect other areas of the club?
• When will this £130m be paid back? Is this stopping us fixing our issues?
• How would levels of debt impact any sale / investment?
• Does the club financing the redevelopments itself help FSG expand in other sports (NBA / NFL)?

 

Fucking Athletic and that Burger / Frog faced gimp Pearce. I'm sure they have good contacts and when they write an easy story (ie player interest etc) I'm sure it's accurate. They literally don't write anything as a good exclusive and for example, Joyce etc will break it at the same time.

 

Why aren't they asking or answering these difficult questions?