Sanctimonious Cunts

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Wind your neck in.

 

I live in Wales, believe it or not we speak another language here. There are words that could be used in both contexts in most languages, i can assure you words i'd use for my opponent may be the same as what i'd use for a friend but given the context of when and where it was said is what would deem it offensive or not.

 

Where have i said it's illegal, i've not. I've said it's unacceptable. The same way any insult should be, but we get het up in the moment and insults fly, some people get offended and some don't. If someone can kick someone with what they've said and it's to their advantage well why wouldn't they?

 

 

If he (as alleged) said ten times it in a familiar term, at one manc game I think it's fair to assume other players would of heard him say it to other black players too in the last year, but no-one has stepped forward? (i may be wrong)

 

 

 

Just saying 'I didn't know' doesn't always get my kids off scot free either.

 

What are you talking about?

 

He has never said "he didn't know". Why? Because its NOT unacceptable for a black person to be described in Spanish (by a south american) as a Negro or Negrito. Who exactly is it that determines it unacceptable?

 

You? No.

 

The FA? No.

 

Evra? No. No, because its not a bloody racist term. Sure, he could take offence but then he should be told and taught that it isnt said with any malice and has absolutely no racial connotation.

 

Furthermore you avoided what I said. You said that you were "sure" that Suarez's grasp of English language and culture was developed enough for him to understand that what he said was offensive. How did you know that?

 

Finally - is it even to do with English culture or English language? Evra isnt English. He's French. How would Suarez know that French black people find the word Negro unacceptable?

 

Too many people on this forum are confused. Negro isnt even a racist term in English, nevermind Spanish?

[MLB]

Hahaha, fuck off Maddock you scruffy fucking queg.

[melons]

What are you talking about?

 

He has never said "he didn't know". Why? Because its NOT unacceptable for a black person to be described in Spanish (by a south american) as a Negro or Negrito. Who exactly is it that determines it unacceptable?

 

You? No.

 

The FA? No.

 

Evra? No. No, because its not a bloody racist term. Sure, he could take offence but then he should be told and taught that it isnt said with any malice and has absolutely no racial connotation.

 

Furthermore you avoided what I said. You said that you were "sure" that Suarez's grasp of English language and culture was developed enough for him to understand that what he said was offensive. How did you know that?

 

Finally - is it even to do with English culture or English language? Evra isnt English. He's French. How would Suarez know that French black people find the word Negro unacceptable?

 

Too many people on this forum are confused. Negro isnt even a racist term in English, nevermind Spanish?

 

Almost a year in another country working on a pitch every week where people have their choice language spouted at regular intervals, and you don't learn a few of it's swear words? Yeah, what ever. You may consider me to be arguing a thin argument, but if you're going against it you'll need to come back with something stronger then just saying i'm talking shite. Which i might be, but as i said before - it's my opinion.

 

 

The bit on bold, you're being incredibly naive on what people will do to cause disruption, in my opinion.

 

 

As for the rest, let me know when you've had your rattles passed back to the pram you're in an i'll come back to you.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Almost a year in another country working on a pitch every week where people have their choice language spouted at regular intervals, and you don't learn a few of it's swear words? Yeah, what ever. You may consider me to be arguing a thin argument, but if you're going against it you'll need to come back with something stronger then just saying i'm talking shite. Which i might be, but as i said before - it's my opinion.

 

 

The bit on bold, you're being incredibly naive on what people will do to cause disruption, in my opinion.

 

 

As for the rest, let me know when you've had your rattles passed back to the pram you're in an i'll come back to you.

 

Oh! "Yeah, Whatever". That makes sense. What a pitiful, ignorant response.

 

Why exactly do you have the right to assume that Suarez will know that Negro (thats Nehgro, not Neegro) will offend a Frenchman of Senegalese decent? Go ahead, enlighten me?

 

No melons, you don't have a 'thin argument', you have no argument at all. You are saying he's had enough time to realise that a totally non-racial descriptive Spanish word (remember, its Nehgro, not Neegro) is racist in England, even though I (a British Citizen, who has grown up with ethnics his whole life) didn't, and dont, think that Neegro is a racist word?

 

I'll keep rattling, thanks. You can try undermine my argument by calling me a baby but it wont keep me from arguing.

[Anubis]

An aspect of the exchange - in relation to context - which I think is being overlooked, is that the conversation was in Spanish. To those doubting him, is it really inconceivable that Suarez, speaking to another player who is also fluent in Spanish, would believe or assume that said player would know the context in which the word was used in Spanish speaking countries?

 

When Evra ran crying to Canal + he spoke French. When he ran crying to the referee he spoke English. In those languages the word used could be seen as being abusive, but would be out of context with regard to the language used for the conversation on the pitch.

[TheHowieLama]

An aspect of the exchange - in relation to context - which I think is being overlooked, is that the conversation was in Spanish. To those doubting him, is it really inconceivable that Suarez, speaking to another player who is also fluent in Spanish, would believe or assume that said player would know the context in which the word was used in Spanish speaking countries?

 

When Evra ran crying to Canal + he spoke French. When he ran crying to the referee he spoke English. In those languages the word used could be seen as being abusive, but would be out of context with regard to the language used for the conversation on the pitch.

 

Dude - he's a black guy - he's been around.

[Liverpool lad]

Can anyone sum this up for me?

 

I've been drinking

[melons]

Oh! "Yeah, Whatever". That makes sense. What a pitiful, ignorant response.

 

Why exactly do you have the right to assume that Suarez will know that Negro (thats Nehgro, not Neegro) will offend a Frenchman of Senegalese decent? Go ahead, enlighten me?

 

No melons, you don't have a 'thin argument', you have no argument at all. You are saying he's had enough time to realise that a totally non-racial descriptive Spanish word (remember, its Nehgro, not Neegro) is racist in England, even though I (a British Citizen, who has grown up with ethnics his whole life) didn't, and dont, think that Neegro is a racist word?

 

I'll keep rattling, thanks. You can try undermine my argument by calling me a baby but it wont keep me from arguing.

 

 

I think you've pretty much managed that yourself in one sentence. A child doesn't get their own way, they scream louder.

 

 

Read through my post, read through where i've angered you so much and address it. You can harp on about the Spanish word for black being negro and you can tell me it wasn't meant in an offensive manner. What i'm saying is that it can be seen to be by whom ever is on the receiving end. You're tit deep in protecting someones honour that you can't see passed it.

 

I like most reds will back Suarez, that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been chastised, had it explained that the use of such a phrase can be deemed offensive on a British football pitch, but as you weren't to know we'll settle with informing you of this and other no-no's.

 

I can't believe i'm typing this shit out, seriously, any other player any other team most of this forum would be frothing at the mouth to have a go.

 

 

And yes, that just short of a year submersed in any culture you'll pick up insulting terms.

 

 

 

An aspect of the exchange - in relation to context - which I think is being overlooked, is that the conversation was in Spanish. To those doubting him, is it really inconceivable that Suarez, speaking to another player who is also fluent in Spanish, would believe or assume that said player would know the context in which the word was used in Spanish speaking countries?

 

When Evra ran crying to Canal + he spoke French. When he ran crying to the referee he spoke English. In those languages the word used could be seen as being abusive, but would be out of context with regard to the language used for the conversation on the pitch.

 

It is about context, but you're never going to get two oppising players from such teams to not take advantage. If it could of got used it would have and has done.

[melons]

Can anyone sum this up for me?

 

I've been drinking

 

Negged.

 

(Not for this, for saying my kids had different dad's in another thread. If only.)

[Anubis]

Can anyone sum this up for me?

 

I've been drinking

 

Suarez has done nothing wrong.

 

Evra is a cunt.

 

Mig's are shit compared to F16's.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I think you've pretty much managed that yourself in one sentence. A child doesn't get their own way, they scream louder.

 

 

Read through my post, read through where i've angered you so much and address it. You can harp on about the Spanish word for black being negro and you can tell me it wasn't meant in an offensive manner. What i'm saying is that it can be seen to be by whom ever is on the receiving end. You're tit deep in protecting someones honour that you can't see passed it.

I like most reds will back Suarez, that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been chastised, had it explained that the use of such a phrase can be deemed offensive on a British football pitch, but as you weren't to know we'll settle with informing you of this and other no-no's.

 

I can't believe i'm typing this shit out, seriously, any other player any other team most of this forum would be frothing at the mouth to have a go.

 

And yes, that just short of a year submersed in any culture you'll pick up insulting terms.

 

How am I "shouting louder"? Im not being aggressive, or increasingly aggressive. In fact, my posts have been fairly reasoned. I've posed you questions which you've generally ignored.

 

You havent "angered me so much", the situation has. I dont know where I've shown anger towards you per se.

 

By who and since when, though? When does PC go too far? Don't preach to me about looking at it from the 'victims' point of view. I was put in hospital after a racially motivated attack in the recent past. I know what racism is thank you and I'm pretty darn sensitive about it, considering the amount of times I've encountered it.

 

You're ignorance astounds me. Nobody has the right to tell somebody else that a non-offensive term in their mother toungue is offensive. They can explain why they feel offended and then listen to the person's reasoning. In a case so grey-and-opaque as this, who can be the determining party? Why should the world conform to the way of thinking of us good-ol'-British? When did we suddenly become the arbitrars of racial linguistics and the bastions of social equality?

 

Have you had a look around? In all probability, most of these reincarnated Martin Luthers have once been racist themselves. This whole witch hunt is racist.

 

And no - Evra is French, not British. Its nothing to do with British culture. Even still a year is not enough time - and who are you to decide it is?

 

You can sit there and dismiss my views as a blind support of a Liverpool player, go ahead. The truth is though melons, after being subject to torrid racial abuse for years (as one John Barnes or Ian W.), I'm passionate about fighting anything that will set back the fight against racism.

[TheHowieLama]

Negged.

 

(Not for this, for saying my kids had different dad's in another thread. If only.)

 

WTF is this - so you neggered a fella cuz you wish you had more game??!!

[Preston Red]

How am I "shouting louder"? Im not being aggressive, or increasingly aggressive.

 

[YOUTUBE]OglAlqULfew[/YOUTUBE]

 

Sorry, but when I read that I thought of Rik from the Young Ones.

[Uncle_Meat]

Suarez has done nothing wrong.

 

Evra is a cunt.

 

Mig's are shit compared to F16's.

 

He's right, y'know that? He's right.

 

[melons]

How am I "shouting louder"? Im not being aggressive, or increasingly aggressive. In fact, my posts have been fairly reasoned. I've posed you questions which you've generally ignored.

 

You havent "angered me so much", the situation has. I dont know where I've shown anger towards you per se.

 

By who and since when, though? When does PC go too far? Don't preach to me about looking at it from the 'victims' point of view. I was put in hospital after a racially motivated attack in the recent past. I know what racism is thank you and I'm pretty darn sensitive about it, considering the amount of times I've encountered it.

 

You're ignorance astounds me. Nobody has the right to tell somebody else that a non-offensive term in their mother toungue is offensive. They can explain why they feel offended and then listen to the person's reasoning. In a case so grey-and-opaque as this, who can be the determining party? Why should the world conform to the way of thinking of us good-ol'-British? When did we suddenly become the arbitrars of racial linguistics and the bastions of social equality?

 

Have you had a look around? In all probability, most of these reincarnated Martin Luthers have once been racist themselves. This whole witch hunt is racist.

 

And no - Evra is French, not British. Its nothing to do with British culture. Even still a year is not enough time - and who are you to decide it is?

 

You can sit there and dismiss my views as a blind support of a Liverpool player, go ahead. The truth is though melons, after being subject to torrid racial abuse for years (as one John Barnes or Ian W.), I'm passionate about fighting anything that will set back the fight against racism.

 

 

Your posts are coming across as condescending, arrogant and dismissive. I believe i've answered your argument, I simply don't agree with you.

 

 

NO-ONE has the right to abuse anyone, in any language or what can be seen as abusive in any language regardless of race, if someone does so, they should be pulled on it. Evra happened to take Suarez comments to be racially abusive, after all it was said ten times, allegedly. If he didn't get the point after the first, then just to re-enforce it it's repeated. I'm not saying Evra was in the right either, neither are a shining beacon of good behaviour here.

 

You're right, it's a grey area, you don't think he should of been called on it, i do. I think we all agree the punishment was harsh to say the least.

 

 

 

I have also been the victim of a racially motivated attack, and spent the night (boxing night 2008 as it happens) in hospital getting head scans and monitored. I still have a scar just above the left side of my lip too. It was a group of 6 white youths that did it whilst spouting racist insults in another language that i just happened to understand. Like i said, you live in an area you understand the insults often faster then the basics of the language. I fail to see how you bringing up you being a victim makes you an authority on the subject, I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have also been subject to racist abuse.

 

 

This is a forum where we're all entitled to our own opinions and views, yes, maybe my view is different, but when it comes down to it, it's simple manners after all, and they cost nothing. You're in a culture and someone tells you certain behaviour was inappropriate and caused offence, you apologise for offence caused and say you were unaware. Not that just because it's acceptable in one place makes it acceptable everywhere else.

 

 

 

WTF is this - so you neggered a fella cuz you wish you had more game??!!

 

Frequent the GF, find out what a twat the ex has been, different fathers would of been ideal.

[xerxes]

You're in a culture and someone tells you certain behaviour was inappropriate and caused offence, you apologise for offence caused and say you were unaware. Not that just because it's acceptable in one place makes it acceptable everywhere else.

 

A good point.

 

And to be fair it is the Club's job to advise him on this. The problem is that we have no wise head with the relevant experience, a Peter Robinson, to do this at the moment.

[piscinin]

You're in a culture and someone tells you certain behaviour was inappropriate and caused offence, you apologise for offence caused and say you were unaware. Not that just because it's acceptable in one place makes it acceptable everywhere else.

 

And if Evra had said, "Hey mate you can't say that". Suarez may well have done that. But he didn't. He didn't tell the ref to tell Suarez. He went to a international mass media organization and labelled Suarez a racist.

 

Evra was not interested in clearing up a misunderstanding, he was interested in getting back. Surely you can see how the way Evra handled the situation completely changes how you would react to it.

[scudger99]

Evra has just booked himself 90 solid minutes of the worst non-racist abuse every time he appears at Anfield

To quote Jay & Silent Bob "fuck them, fuck them up their stupid ass"

[melons]

And if Evra had said, "Hey mate you can't say that". Suarez may well have done that. But he didn't. He didn't tell the ref to tell Suarez. He went to a international mass media organization and labelled Suarez a racist.

 

Evra was not interested in clearing up a misunderstanding, he was interested in getting back. Surely you can see how the way Evra handled the situation completely changes how you would react to it.

 

Course i can, I've never once said i don't. If there was a reversal here and it was the other way round i'd be as smug as most for getting one over on those lot down the east lancs.

 

As far as i'm aware he went to the ref though? For it to be in the ref to mention it in his report? (if i've got that bit wrong i apologise, but not for the points i've made about it all)

[Guest davelfc]

He went to the ref, after he had showered and changed and had a chat about it to his manager. He found time to ask the ref (allegedly) if he was being booked because he was black and yet didn't find the time during the game or at half time or even when the final whistle went to complain about being racially abused 10 times during the game.

 

Why not mention it at half time, why not bring it up with the ref or his manager then? Why not point it out to his team mates.

 

If he was that worked up about it then why ponder on it for so long, he doesn't come across as the calm, quiet thoughtful type. Unless it's cold and calculated, you know like his world cup escapade.

[piscinin]

Course i can, I've never once said i don't. If there was a reversal here and it was the other way round i'd be as smug as most for getting one over on those lot down the east lancs.

 

As far as i'm aware he went to the ref though? For it to be in the ref to mention it in his report? (if i've got that bit wrong i apologise, but not for the points i've made about it all)

 

He went to the ref after.

 

TBH I think most will agree with your points, but for the fact that the way Evra went about this closed out the possibility of a grown-up solution.

[LFC64]

Almost a year in another country working on a pitch every week where people have their choice language spouted at regular intervals, and you don't learn a few of it's swear words? Yeah, what ever.

 

 

I'm sure Suarez has learned a few English swear words by now.

 

What's that got to do with a conversation initiated in Spanish by a Frenchman clearly fluent in Spanish enough to make a specifically derogatory insult referring to Suarez' south american origins and a retort from a Uruguayan in Uruguayan Spanish with what is categorically accepted in that country as a non perjorative descriptive expression?

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Your posts are coming across as condescending, arrogant and dismissive. I believe i've answered your argument, I simply don't agree with you.

 

 

NO-ONE has the right to abuse anyone, in any language or what can be seen as abusive in any language regardless of race, if someone does so, they should be pulled on it. Evra happened to take Suarez comments to be racially abusive, after all it was said ten times, allegedly. If he didn't get the point after the first, then just to re-enforce it it's repeated. I'm not saying Evra was in the right either, neither are a shining beacon of good behaviour here.

 

You're right, it's a grey area, you don't think he should of been called on it, i do. I think we all agree the punishment was harsh to say the least.

 

 

 

I have also been the victim of a racially motivated attack, and spent the night (boxing night 2008 as it happens) in hospital getting head scans and monitored. I still have a scar just above the left side of my lip too. It was a group of 6 white youths that did it whilst spouting racist insults in another language that i just happened to understand. Like i said, you live in an area you understand the insults often faster then the basics of the language. I fail to see how you bringing up you being a victim makes you an authority on the subject, I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that have also been subject to racist abuse.

 

 

This is a forum where we're all entitled to our own opinions and views, yes, maybe my view is different, but when it comes down to it, it's simple manners after all, and they cost nothing. You're in a culture and someone tells you certain behaviour was inappropriate and caused offence, you apologise for offence caused and say you were unaware. Not that just because it's acceptable in one place makes it acceptable everywhere else.

 

That's terribly ironic coming from you. To Quote:

 

let me know when you've had your rattles passed back to the pram you're in an i'll come back to you.

 

Dismissive, did you say?

 

I live in Wales, believe it or not we speak another language here.

 

Condescending, did you say?

 

It's fitting that the title of this thread is sanctimonious cunts, to be honest. Because you seem so utterly determined to take some kind of moral high-ground.

 

Melons, you don't seem to be getting it. Calling somebody a Negrito is NOT ABUSING SOMEONE. If somebody happens to take abuse to it, it is THEIR DUTY to explain to the 'guilty party' that he feels like that.

 

Did Evra do that? No, of course he didn't. Evra had no intention of explaining it was racist. Watch the video footage, when he was apparently 'abused' he seemed calmer than when Luis touched him on the head. He didn't mention it to anybody during the game, instead he ran to Canal. Its odd that you don't even know the facts of the case yet are utterly determined to slam down the hammer of justice.

 

Do you want us to live in a world where our every sentence must be pre-sanctioned by higher authority or better yet, a Sky Sports like poll? The world is full of cultural and ethical differences - differences that we should embrace, not eradicate.

 

If you see Suarez as the guilty party, you should go to South America and reprimand them for speaking the language they've spoke their whole lives, condemning the culture they've embraced their whole lives. You seem to think that because he's on our soil he should absolutely change who is because it "offends you".

 

Bollocks to that.

 

People have the right to offend whoever the fuck they want. Stop being so blinkered. I'm sure i'd offend some local pro-nazi facists if I went around shouting "fuck the BNP". Should I be admonished? Of course that is an extreme but its valid. I'm sure the Christians who are incensed by the purging of religious Christmas cards (as they should be) are amongst those impatient to castigate Suarez.

 

The bottom line is this. You are adamant on condemning a person for not understanding the intricacies of our culture. But in doing so you aren't at all willing to try and understand the intricacies of his? I think you should take a look at the link below.

 

Let Me Google That For You

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I'm sure Suarez has learned a few English swear words by now.

 

What's that got to do with a conversation initiated in Spanish by a Frenchman clearly fluent in Spanish enough to make a specifically derogatory insult referring to Suarez' south american origins and a retort from a Uruguayan in Uruguayan Spanish with what is categorically accepted in that country as a non perjorative descriptive expression?

 

Don't waste your time.

 

You are, of course, 1000000% spot on with your question, but it will be batted away with a generic response along the lines of "its not right to offend people" or "ignorance is not an excuse", as opposed to a reasoned argument.

[russ1979]

That's terribly ironic coming from you. To Quote:

 

 

 

Dismissive, did you say?

 

 

 

Condescending, did you say?

 

It's fitting that the title of this thread is sanctimonious cunts, to be honest. Because you seem so utterly determined to take some kind of moral high-ground.

 

Melons, you don't seem to be getting it. Calling somebody a Negrito is NOT ABUSING SOMEONE. If somebody happens to take abuse to it, it is THEIR DUTY to explain to the 'guilty party' that he feels like that.

 

Did Evra do that? No, of course he didn't. Evra had no intention of explaining it was racist. Watch the video footage, when he was apparently 'abused' he seemed calmer than when Luis touched him on the head. He didn't mention it to anybody during the game, instead he ran to Canal. Its odd that you don't even know the facts of the case yet are utterly determined to slam down the hammer of justice.

 

Do you want us to live in a world where our every sentence must be pre-sanctioned by higher authority or better yet, a Sky Sports like poll? The world is full of cultural and ethical differences - differences that we should embrace, not eradicate.

 

If you see Suarez as the guilty party, you should go to South America and reprimand them for speaking the language they've spoke their whole lives, condemning the culture they've embraced their whole lives. You seem to think that because he's on our soil he should absolutely change who is because it "offends you".

 

Bollocks to that.

 

People have the right to offend whoever the fuck they want. Stop being so blinkered. I'm sure i'd offend some local pro-nazi facists if I went around shouting "fuck the BNP". Should I be admonished? Of course that is an extreme but its valid. I'm sure the Christians who are incensed by the purging of religious Christmas cards (as they should be) are amongst those impatient to castigate Suarez.

 

The bottom line is this. You are adamant on condemning a person for not understanding the intricacies of our culture. But in doing so you aren't at all willing to try and understand the intricacies of his? I think you should take a look at the link below.

 

Let Me Google That For You

 

 

excellent post