Roy and Rafa, why do you support a manager?

[Son of L8]

Sorry for another thread, but this is not so much about the different managers but more us fans and what shapes our thoughts on the manager of Liverpool.

 

Four pages on, let's look back and take stock. How's that working out for you?

 

Rafa lost his way after the 05/06 season and after what happened during the summer of 2008 you only have to winder how much of our league results in 08/09 was Rafa`s "fault".

 

They are both shite, they both play boring football, they both struggle away from home, they both have a good record at home, both have outdated tactics and both would never win us the league.

 

...

 

Personally I think we have regressed from the summer of 2006, proportional with how much input Rafa got on the squad.

 

There have not been any real progress under Rafa, we went forward in one area only to go backwards in another, this happened every season, if it looked like Rafa had found a solution to a problem you could bet your house we would go backwards somewhere else the next.

 

...

 

04/05:

League Cup: Final

Champions League: Winners

 

05/06:

FA Cup: Winners

 

06/07:

Champions league: Final

 

07/08:

Nothing

 

08/09:

Nothing

 

09/10:

Nothing

 

.....

 

Rafa took a team that finished 4th to 5th in his first season, he then finished 3rd twice, once on goal difference, before he was back in 4th, then second and he finished of with 7th.

 

His points tally in these seasons where 58, 82, 68, 76, 86, 63.

 

Only two seasons in a row did he actually improve on his former season, apart from that it was up and down like the throw of a dice, excuse me for not finding much consistent improvement here.

 

Ahh. Not so well, then.

 

I really long for the day when people finally stop starting threads about Rafa Benitez. That's going to be such a nice day on here.

[King Emlyn]

Four pages on, let's look back and take stock. How's that working out for you?

 

 

 

Ahh. Not so well, then.

 

I really long for the day when people finally stop starting threads about Rafa Benitez. That's going to be such a nice day on here.

Here here

[ngogswilly]

Here here is right.

 

As someone who neither hates nor loves Benitez I just find this obsession with either constantly trying to drag his name through the mud or constantly pining for his return just beyond fucking annoying.

 

Can we just move on for the love of God.

[Benitaur]

The reason I support Rafa is that he had a clear vision and project. Anyone objectively who isn't buying into the nonsense the media is spouting will see this.

 

He wanted control over the youth, because the current system wasn't producing anyone. He brought in the Barca guys to at least replicate the system that would bring in quality players. Coincidentally, Houllier had the same fights too, because even though Carra, Gerrard and Owen came through, it wasn't enough for someone who oversaw the French national youth.

 

He wanted control over buying and selling of players, because under Parry, although he already negotiated and agreed with several class players, Parry going on breaks during the crucial transfer period meant that we eventually lost out on those players, and ended up with our second or third or worse choice

 

He wanted a clear transfer budget so he could improve our team year by year. Instead he had a sell before you buy budget, where even a profit disappears when he thought it could be used for squad depth.

 

I see NOTHING wrong with all of this. If our club had all these running smoothly and competently, there wouldn't be any problems and the manager wouldn't be demanding such things.

 

As for the "Rafa is a defensive manager" nonsense. Here are the facts

 

1st season, defensive, bought Alonso & Garcia

2nd season, defensive, bought Reina, Arbeloa, Crouch

3rd season, more offensive with Bellamy and Kuyt, and offensive intent with Gonzales and Pennant

4th season, second most goals scored, bought Torres, Mascherano, Babel, Lucas

5th season, top scoring team when team gelled. Keane was a failure though. But Alonso playing out of his skin

6th season, worst season under Rafa.

 

If you remember, we started offensively in the 6th season (look at our scoreline in the early games). But due to injuries to our CBs, we were leaking goals like a sieve. By the time we got some stability in the defense, we were too far back and already out of the CL. Also the loss of Alonso and the unavailability of Aquilani meant that our attacks were not as coordinated.

 

So calling Rafa a defensive ONLY coach is completely wrong. It was a work in progress. NO doubt that Rafa's mentality is defense first, then attack. But there is nothing wrong with that mentality. ALL winning managers think like that (and why Wenger IMO has lost the plot)

 

Rafa IMO is an attacking manager, as evidenced by his style of play ie pressing, playing high up the pitch, attacking with speed. However he would not sacrifice defensive solidarity for offensive flair. His weakness is that he was struggling to find the player to unlock defenses (where did the Silva money go I wonder)

[Guest TK-421]

Great post, Benitaur. You don't get 43 points away from home with a defensive mentality. You get...whatever we're on now.

[Randy Marsh]

The reason I support Rafa is that he had a clear vision and project. Anyone objectively who isn't buying into the nonsense the media is spouting will see this.

 

He wanted control over the youth, because the current system wasn't producing anyone. He brought in the Barca guys to at least replicate the system that would bring in quality players. Coincidentally, Houllier had the same fights too, because even though Carra, Gerrard and Owen came through, it wasn't enough for someone who oversaw the French national youth.

 

He wanted control over buying and selling of players, because under Parry, although he already negotiated and agreed with several class players, Parry going on breaks during the crucial transfer period meant that we eventually lost out on those players, and ended up with our second or third or worse choice

 

He wanted a clear transfer budget so he could improve our team year by year. Instead he had a sell before you buy budget, where even a profit disappears when he thought it could be used for squad depth.

 

I see NOTHING wrong with all of this. If our club had all these running smoothly and competently, there wouldn't be any problems and the manager wouldn't be demanding such things.

 

As for the "Rafa is a defensive manager" nonsense. Here are the facts

 

1st season, defensive, bought Alonso & Garcia

2nd season, defensive, bought Reina, Arbeloa, Crouch

3rd season, more offensive with Bellamy and Kuyt, and offensive intent with Gonzales and Pennant

4th season, second most goals scored, bought Torres, Mascherano, Babel, Lucas

5th season, top scoring team when team gelled. Keane was a failure though. But Alonso playing out of his skin

6th season, worst season under Rafa.

 

If you remember, we started offensively in the 6th season (look at our scoreline in the early games). But due to injuries to our CBs, we were leaking goals like a sieve. By the time we got some stability in the defense, we were too far back and already out of the CL. Also the loss of Alonso and the unavailability of Aquilani meant that our attacks were not as coordinated.

 

So calling Rafa a defensive ONLY coach is completely wrong. It was a work in progress. NO doubt that Rafa's mentality is defense first, then attack. But there is nothing wrong with that mentality. ALL winning managers think like that (and why Wenger IMO has lost the plot)

 

Rafa IMO is an attacking manager, as evidenced by his style of play ie pressing, playing high up the pitch, attacking with speed. However he would not sacrifice defensive solidarity for offensive flair. His weakness is that he was struggling to find the player to unlock defenses (where did the Silva money go I wonder)

 

You'll probably get stick from the usual boring gets, probably be called a Rafalite, Rafapologist or other such bollocks, but that is a great post mate.

 

Rafa isn't a boring defensive manager, it's one of the biggest myths in football. I saw with my own eyes his Valencia sides who to this day, in my 16years of going the match, are one of the best opposition teams I've ever seen at Anfield. It's all about him knowing he has the right players, and the confidence in those players, to impose his style of football. For the second half of the 2009 season, we were unplayable. Totally unplayable. The best Liverpool team I've seen in my 23 years.

[stringvest]

Rafa came in and was then shaffted by the then owners of the club before he upped and left

 

Roy has come in and has now been shaffted by the now new owners of the club

 

I am a supporter of the club and everyone within it and would never sing shout etc against anyone within the club apartr from the two cunts we just outed

 

From the begining Roy Hodgson was the wrong choice IMHO but the decision was made to appoint him and he got my backing and he still has that backing until he leaves the club

 

As manager of the club he should be allowed to build his team but the fact that he only signed for 2 years meant that was never going to happen

So it now falls on the owners to either come out and support the manager till the end of the season, allowing him to bring in the players he believes will change things around for Him the Team and The Supporters or bring forward the transition of manager and allow everyone to unite behind the choice

 

To expect anyone to work wonders with a declining side that lost yet more players from the weakend squad and expect two players whos best years are behind them in Konchelsky and Poulson and a CM player who has never played in the league before to be the answer it's ok to say he shouldnt have signed either player but it was a case of thefm or nothing so i dont blame him for that

 

I am not beating up a manager who wasnt good enough for the job in the first place (IMHO) he isnt a bad manager the problem is he will never bee a great manager and i can understand why the man is so well liked within the game

 

But the time as come now where we look to see what the owners are made of for they are about to make the biggest decision in this clubs modern history and the fact is they cant get it wrong so it is now time to get behind Roy Hodgson we are about to visit the enemy in there back yard and it is time to show that the man leading the team out really doesnt walk alone

 

Support the Team support the Manager support the Shirt there is no difference between all three let the board make the decision while we support the team and at least for a day lets stand together behind LFC

 

Fuck me that's a good post bob

[moof]

Sorry for another thread, but this is not so much about the different managers but more us fans and what shapes our thoughts on the manager of Liverpool.

 

There are a few things I`ve not been able to really get to grips with in all this mess we find ourselves in after Rafa got sacked in the summer and here it follows.

 

Lets start with myself.

 

I wanted Rafa gone and I did not want Roy in, for me thats the only logical take on the situation.

 

I wanted Rafa gone because of his weakness when it came to the attacking setup and his obvious mistrust in flair players, this was a concern for me with Rafa for years and after he got total control over player transfers and his following abysmal record in signing players there were really no way back, his other flaws were merely side issues for me.

 

We had a good record at home under Rafa but we struggled on the road, mostly because Rafa had not come to grip with the reality of the PL, that you had to go out and just try and go for it and put the opposing teams under pressure.

 

Then you have Roy, a good record at home but an awful record away from home, his teams never scored much goals either just like Rafa`s team except from one season obviously.

 

So why would I back Roy when I wanted Rafa out for the same flaws Roy obviously has got in his set up?

 

The only answer I could come up with if that was the case is that I would like to back up every Liverpool manager ubtill he has proven he does not deserve that backing and to some extent I did that, I did not really say too much about our poor results because I wanted to give him some time to prove me wrong, something he most likely would never do, but still I wanted to respect the manager position at the club.

 

From a football aspect this is where my trouble starts, because what has happened is that those who wanted Rafa gone, most likely for much of the same reasons as myself are those who have been willing to give Roy some time and some of these fans even thought Roy would do a good job.

 

On the other end you have the Rafioso who thought he was Santa Claus, God and Monica Bellucci in one.

 

You would have thought since Roy had much of the same flaws and abilities as Rafa they would embrace him, but thats hardly been the case.

 

Both struggling away from home, both playing rigid boring football and both being obvious nutcases.

 

But no, the Rafioso have been at him from day one and the double standards are screaming at us from almost every post on the subject.

 

The question is why do you have the attitude you have towards them and is there any logic behind it or are you influenced of other things than the football side of it?

 

You sir, are a cunt.

[ronnie38]

Ha ha ha gotta love Code, gets his arse handed to him regular and still talks shite and that qoute from him about Lucas is fucking sublime.

[Benitaur]

A further post after reading Code's post about Rafa and flair players, and in general managers who get the best out of players

 

I believe Rafa gets unbelievable stick when if you look at his record, it should actually be the other way around

 

In regards to flair players, by and large they are an inconsistent lot. You buy a player, you may very well get the next Messi, or on the other hand the next Denilson. And they are generally expensive as hell too and a big risk.

 

Now the criticism of Rafa not trusting flair players. This is completely untrue based on his record.

 

Look at all the flair players who have thrived under him like Aimar, Garcia, Benayoun or even Smicer. Now compare their careers AFTER they left and tell me Rafa didn't get the best out of them

 

This goes to motivation too. The criticism is that Rafa doesn't get the best out of players. But look at the Aimars and the Ayalas. Look at the Torreses and the Gerrards. Look even at Eto'o. Look at how other managers have done with these exact same players. Not near as good as under Rafa

 

Compare Torres under Rafa to Torres under Roy or his national team under Aragones or del Bosque

Compare Gerrard under Rafa to Gerrard under Capello, Sven, Mclaren or even Houllier

Compare Carra under Rafa to Carra under anyone else.

 

Who got the best out of them?

 

Also the criticism is that Rafa didn't get the best out of Keane, etc etc. This would only be a valid criticism if these very same players went elsewhere and became world beaters. But no. Most of them (that he is criticised for) just proved that they were crap regardless (Keane)

 

Yes, there are players who left. The Alonsos, the Bellamys, the Crouches. They all left for whatever reason (Rafa trading up). But you cannot say that they have done remarkably better since they have left. Their best years were still under Rafa.

[Benitaur]

You'll probably get stick from the usual boring gets, probably be called a Rafalite, Rafapologist or other such bollocks, but that is a great post mate.

 

Rafa isn't a boring defensive manager, it's one of the biggest myths in football. I saw with my own eyes his Valencia sides who to this day, in my 16years of going the match, are one of the best opposition teams I've ever seen at Anfield. It's all about him knowing he has the right players, and the confidence in those players, to impose his style of football. For the second half of the 2009 season, we were unplayable. Totally unplayable. The best Liverpool team I've seen in my 23 years.

 

Yep, his Valencia days and the 09 season we were awesome. With the right backing, the goal would have been to have the depth of squad to impose this style of play without any loss of quality when rotating or injuries hit.

 

Its unfortunate if Rafa finally finds the team that will back him financially, and its not us.

 

I saw the fear in Hiddink's eyes although he beat us in the CL in that year. I saw the frustration in Fergie's demeanor when we outplayed them. I would hate to be on the other side if Rafa finally gets backed and that team plays us

[Ynwa20]

Ha ha ha gotta love Code, gets his arse handed to him regular and still talks shite and that qoute from him about Lucas is fucking sublime.

 

Can't be arsed to read all this. What was the Lucas quote? Great post by Benitaur by the way.

[looneylen2]

I believe that you have to respect a manager in the choices that he makes. It does not matter who is in charge.

 

Saying that it is a two way street and the manager must respect the fans and the club too.

The fact is if you are playing badly then change the system to one that works best for the players you have available and dont just hope and pray that it will go right.

[Pool518]

Benitez was a mess in his latter years. Hodgson is The Great Depression. Both are disappointments, just in varying degrees.

[s(k)aturation]

Benitez was a mess in his latter years. Hodgson is The Great Depression. Both are disappointments, just in varying degrees.

 

And if Roy goes today, perhaps it's a short enough time to just forget it ever happened.

[paddyberger15]

A couple of marvellous Marvin Hagler posts from Benitaur on the last page.

[Thants]

The reason I support Rafa is that he had a clear vision and project. Anyone objectively who isn't buying into the nonsense the media is spouting will see this.

 

He wanted control over the youth, because the current system wasn't producing anyone. He brought in the Barca guys to at least replicate the system that would bring in quality players. Coincidentally, Houllier had the same fights too, because even though Carra, Gerrard and Owen came through, it wasn't enough for someone who oversaw the French national youth.

 

He wanted control over buying and selling of players, because under Parry, although he already negotiated and agreed with several class players, Parry going on breaks during the crucial transfer period meant that we eventually lost out on those players, and ended up with our second or third or worse choice

 

He wanted a clear transfer budget so he could improve our team year by year. Instead he had a sell before you buy budget, where even a profit disappears when he thought it could be used for squad depth.

 

I see NOTHING wrong with all of this. If our club had all these running smoothly and competently, there wouldn't be any problems and the manager wouldn't be demanding such things.

 

As for the "Rafa is a defensive manager" nonsense. Here are the facts

 

1st season, defensive, bought Alonso & Garcia

2nd season, defensive, bought Reina, Arbeloa, Crouch

3rd season, more offensive with Bellamy and Kuyt, and offensive intent with Gonzales and Pennant

4th season, second most goals scored, bought Torres, Mascherano, Babel, Lucas

5th season, top scoring team when team gelled. Keane was a failure though. But Alonso playing out of his skin

6th season, worst season under Rafa.

 

If you remember, we started offensively in the 6th season (look at our scoreline in the early games). But due to injuries to our CBs, we were leaking goals like a sieve. By the time we got some stability in the defense, we were too far back and already out of the CL. Also the loss of Alonso and the unavailability of Aquilani meant that our attacks were not as coordinated.

 

So calling Rafa a defensive ONLY coach is completely wrong. It was a work in progress. NO doubt that Rafa's mentality is defense first, then attack. But there is nothing wrong with that mentality. ALL winning managers think like that (and why Wenger IMO has lost the plot)

 

Rafa IMO is an attacking manager, as evidenced by his style of play ie pressing, playing high up the pitch, attacking with speed. However he would not sacrifice defensive solidarity for offensive flair. His weakness is that he was struggling to find the player to unlock defenses (where did the Silva money go I wonder)

 

A further post after reading Code's post about Rafa and flair players, and in general managers who get the best out of players

 

I believe Rafa gets unbelievable stick when if you look at his record, it should actually be the other way around

 

In regards to flair players, by and large they are an inconsistent lot. You buy a player, you may very well get the next Messi, or on the other hand the next Denilson. And they are generally expensive as hell too and a big risk.

 

Now the criticism of Rafa not trusting flair players. This is completely untrue based on his record.

 

Look at all the flair players who have thrived under him like Aimar, Garcia, Benayoun or even Smicer. Now compare their careers AFTER they left and tell me Rafa didn't get the best out of them

 

This goes to motivation too. The criticism is that Rafa doesn't get the best out of players. But look at the Aimars and the Ayalas. Look at the Torreses and the Gerrards. Look even at Eto'o. Look at how other managers have done with these exact same players. Not near as good as under Rafa

 

Compare Torres under Rafa to Torres under Roy or his national team under Aragones or del Bosque

Compare Gerrard under Rafa to Gerrard under Capello, Sven, Mclaren or even Houllier

Compare Carra under Rafa to Carra under anyone else.

 

Who got the best out of them?

 

Also the criticism is that Rafa didn't get the best out of Keane, etc etc. This would only be a valid criticism if these very same players went elsewhere and became world beaters. But no. Most of them (that he is criticised for) just proved that they were crap regardless (Keane)

 

Yes, there are players who left. The Alonsos, the Bellamys, the Crouches. They all left for whatever reason (Rafa trading up). But you cannot say that they have done remarkably better since they have left. Their best years were still under Rafa.

 

Floating in a sea of shit are some nuggets of gold. Great posts.

[Guest ian garro]

How To Make A Cunt Of Yourself, In One Easy Thread:

 

by Code72.

 

Brilliant.