"Kenny is not stupid"

[Hand Shandy]

They've been rolled out in this thread Paul...

[Code]

He isnt stupid but he needs to get rid of Kevin Keen and John Acterberg and appoint people who have worked with bigger clubs with fresh ideas and expectations.

 

Its not something I have been using too much time to dwell on, but there could be something in it, to appoint Kevin Keen from a relgated West Ham always seemed a bit odd to me.

[Moorsey]

Its not something I have been using too much time to dwell on, but there could be something in it, to appoint Kevin Keen from a relgated West Ham always seemed a bit odd to me.

 

Remind me of Steve Clarke's last job?

[PaulMcC]

Do people know enough about Keen's job to make a judgement on him?

[Moorsey]

Exactly Paul. I was going to write a long winded tribute to Kev after our Carling Cup win but then I realised I know fuck all what goes on at Melwood to commend/criticize a member of the BACKROOM STAFF.

[Code]

Remind me of Steve Clarke's last job?

 

Remind me of Keens former job?

 

Its an interesting point of debate and not something to brush under the carpet.

 

Remind me again when did we appoint Keen?

[piscinin]

Home field advantage doesn't come in a pay packet.

 

Nor, from misplacing a pass and watching it disappear rapidly into your own half while you pick your arse and stroll slowly back to wash and repeat.

 

You can't show the level of disrespect that some players have the last couple of games and then demand support. We're a pretty forgiving bunch work hard and we'll support you even if your're shit (mostly) but to do the surrender monkey thing and then demand support. Fuck off.

[xerxes]

I really don't understand the random hate for Keen? How can you "appoint people who have worked with bigger clubs" - Didn't 99% of them start at lower clubs before reaching the "Big 4,5,6,7,8" in a coaching capacity?

 

Correct.

 

Check out Fagan and Paisley's coaching credentials.

[Code]

Nor, from misplacing a pass and watching it disappear rapidly into your own half while you pick your arse and stroll slowly back to wash and repeat.

 

You can't show the level of disrespect that some players have the last couple of games and then demand support. We're a pretty forgiving bunch work hard and we'll support you even if your're shit (mostly) but to do the surrender monkey thing and then demand support. Fuck off.

 

If I ever lost the ball in midfield I did not really bother much getting it back if it meant I had to be chasing him, there is a reason we have defensive midfielders and defenders in a team.

 

If the opponents player decided to leave me it would be their loss if we won the ball back, and hit them on the break, its all about taking risks or not.

[piscinin]

If I ever lost the ball in midfield I did not really bother much getting it back if it meant I had to be chasing him, there is a reason we have defensive midfielders and defenders in a team.

 

If the opponents player decided to leave me it would be their loss if we won the ball back, and hit them on the break, its all about taking risks or not.

 

Great you and many others wouldn't have far to trot to the center circle for the restart then.

[Code]

Whats the point in a defensive midfielder who adds fuck all going forward if he needs the attacking players to help him with his duties?

 

When it comes to the above post, look at Barca vs the mancs in their first CL final under Guardiola?

 

Barca left two players in the centre circle at every set piece to take the sting out of the mancs attacks as they had to leave players behind.

 

Like many say, attack is often the best defense.

[piscinin]

Whats the point in a defensive midfielder who adds fuck all going forward if he needs the attacking players to help him with his duties?

 

When it comes to the above post, look at Barca vs the mancs in their first CL final under Guardiola?

 

Barca left two players in the centre circle at every set piece to take the sting out of the mancs attacks as they had to leave players behind.

 

Like many say, attack is often the best defense.

 

And many say sometimes attack is not the best form of defence as has been adequately proven out by us this season.

 

If you want to free your players of defensive responsibilities stick them on the bench.

[Code]

And many say sometimes attack is not the best form of defence as has been adequately proven out by us this season.

 

If you want to free your players of defensive responsibilities stick them on the bench.

 

Some might argue that because of our attacking players inablities to score and create goals this season our opposition see it as a free for all to attack us as they dont really need to worry about our attacking players.

 

The mncs domestic season is the perfect example of how this can work out.

[piscinin]

Some might argue that because of our attacking players inablities to score and create goals this season our opposition see it as a free for all to attack us as they dont really need to worry about outr attacking players.

 

Some might say being a lazy bastard and giving up after 70 minutes has got nothing to do with anything other than being lazy and weak willed.

[Red Baron II]

From day one Downing, Henderson and Carroll have been openly resented by parts of the support, it's a joke. Fans should be making them feel at the very least welcome, part of the club. Then they might find it a little bit easier to motivate them in the last twenty if they felt even remotely believed in.

 

The problem is that many people think that respect has to be earned. Any player pulling on a red shirt will get a token amount of respect before he even kicks a ball, but if they display a 'can't be arsed' attitude or seem to be giving less than 100% effort, then that respect will quickly vanish. In fact, most supporters would find a lack of effort insulting. A large section of our support says the Carroll & co dont make enough effort, which would explain the hostility towards them.

 

Kuyt is a good example; he is never going to be remembered as one of our most talented players, but because he works his arse off he is well respected by the supporters. If a few other players followed his lead, this season might have been very different.

[Horus]

The epitome of the sky generation. Fucking hell, whatever happened to the concept of the 12th man?

 

I do agree on the whole, but the concept of the twelfth man, implies there's a one to eleven to begin with.

[G Richards]

Roy is right. Stick together. Aldo was right too. What's been happening has been embarrassing. The problem is when things are bad you pick the bones out of everything, and even straightforward statements become contentious.

[Kevin D]

You know, I watch LFC.tv for news most nights. They run old clips of Shankly extolling the virtues of the fans towards the players, sucking the ball into the net, making the player, our players, feel 10 foot tall.

 

Then you get so called fans telling our own players to 'fuck off'? Jesus wept. I wonder how long some of these fans would have lasted in the Kop during the 60's and 70's telling our players to 'fuck off.'

 

Why is that so unspeakably terrible?

[Coro]

STICK OR TWIST? A LESSON FROM HISTORY

 

by Gareth Roberts // 4 April 2012 //

 

THERE’s a lot of gleeful handrubbing and told-you-sos flying around at the moment.

 

Journalists that said Kenny Dalglish should never have been given a second chance are nodding sagely and grinning with delight…even the one who wanted Jamie Carragher to get the job.

 

Rival fans are appearing from the woodwork, inactive social networking accounts are creaking into life again and (foam semi-final) fingers are being pointed.

 

A lot of people who have got nothing to do with Liverpool want a Liverpool legend ousted.

 

Some Liverpool fans want him gone, too.

 

But there’s perhaps a lesson to be learned from 30-odd miles down the road when it comes to deciding whether to stick or twist with Dalglish.

 

When Dalglish took the reins in 1985 as England’s first player-manager he had Bob Paisley to turn to for on-the-field advice and Peter Robinson to turn to for off-field advice.

 

Every aspect of Liverpool was top class. In the 10 years before Dalglish moved into the manager’s office the club had won the league seven times.

 

The Liverpool he manages now is clearly not the Liverpool he managed then and while that doesn’t seem to dampen the expectations of some supporters and sections of the media, perhaps it will influence FSG.

 

John Henry has been known to swot up on football past and present and by now he will surely know just how much the club has fallen behind the leading pack.

 

Revenue-wise, wage-paying-wise, stadium-size wise, Liverpool is not top of the pile.

 

Clearly that’s not the case in the league either – and come the end of a season, it won’t have been the case since 1990 – 22 long years.

 

But the year Liverpool were last crowned champions was also the year Alex Ferguson almost lost his job.

 

Ferguson had spent big and expectations were high. Manchester United kicked off hoping, expecting, that for the first time since 1967 – 23 long years – they would win the league.

 

United had broken the British record for a defender with the purchase of Gary Pallister at £2.3million while deals for Danny Wallace (£1.2m), Neil Webb (£1.5m) and Paul Ince (£1.7m) were hardly cut price either.

 

The Pallister deal was in fact the second highest fee paid by a British club at the time. The biggest was by Liverpool to bring back Ian Rush from Juventus.

 

Ferguson had also tried to lure Glenn Hysen to Old Trafford but lost out – to Liverpool.

 

He still made a total of 10 signings that season as he tried to end years of underachievement in the league.

 

But while Liverpool won the title, as per usual back then, United slumped to 13th, their lowest league finish since their relegation from the First Division 15 years earlier.

 

It’s all sounding eerily familiar isn’t it?

 

Ferguson came under immense pressure with even the United fans turning on him – one producing the infamous banner: ’3 years of excuses and it’s still crap – ta ra Fergie’.

 

When that banner was unfurled at Old Trafford in 1989 it was met by “loud, spontaneous and brutal cheers” according to a Guardian article by Daniel Taylor (and the doyen would know).

 

Taylor interviewed the fan responsible for the banner, Pete Molyneux, who said: “It was a build up of all the frustrations because his first three years were dark times. Liverpool were running away with everything and we didn’t seem to be getting any closer.

 

“We were coming off the back of the failures of Dave Sexton and Ron Atkinson to win the league and I just felt the fans had to do something because the club was accepting second-best.”

 

As it was, Ferguson’s side went on to win the FA Cup that season after a replay, beating underwhelming opposition in Crystal Palace, who had never reached a final before.

 

It was United’s first trophy in five years, and Ferguson’s first as manager of the club (he was appointed in November 1986).

 

No-one needs reminding what’s happened since.

 

But the point is that it is only modern football that decrees managers must be moved on at the first sign of crisis – it never used to be the case.

 

Managers were given time – especially at Liverpool.

 

Ah, you might say, well what about Roy Hodgson? Seriously, what about him? It really shouldn’t need to be said but Kenny Dalglish is not Roy Hodgson.

 

One season of ups and downs, a few bad buys and a poor league performance doesn’t whitewash everything that has come before.

 

Liverpool fans are now being mocked for calling him ‘King’ but Dalglish is the greatest living legend associated with Liverpool Football Club – a man who has experienced the highs of European Cup glory and the lows of Hillsborough and emerged the other side revered and with a lot of credit in the bank.

 

Let’s not forget that Dalglish is where he is right now because he answered the call of the club he loves in its hour of need. The easy choice was to keep on cruising – literally.

 

Hodgson, on the other hand, was the pick of a banker and it showed. He was way out of his depth.

 

Kenny clocked up eight league titles as a Liverpool player and manager and won the European Cup three times as a Red.

 

Hodgson didn’t manage to break into the Crystal Palace first team before playing for a string of non-league clubs. He’s managed 16 teams in eight countries, winning the league in Sweden and Denmark.

 

Unwanted records are being racked up in the league right now but that visibly hurts Dalglish.

 

In similar situations Hodgson embraced the mediocrity. This was Liverpool’s level and it wasn’t his fault, was the message. Remember ‘formidable’ Northampton?

 

And the football? Well for all the faults of the current side, at least they try to play the right way.

 

It sounds like straw-clutching but anyone who watches Liverpool regularly will tell you the football – in the main – has been better than the results suggest.

 

Under Hodgson, results were deserved. The football was turgid, defensively-minded and one-dimensional. He left the club with a win percentage of 41 per cent. Dalglish sits at 47 per cent for his second stint as manager (it was an amazing 60 per cent the first time around).

 

This season, Liverpool have often lacked direction – they’ve looked fragile, short on ideas and inspiration and devoid of a leader or two. There’s not enough character in the side right now.

 

But on the other hand they’ve defeated Arsenal, Chelsea (twice), Manchester United and Manchester City.

 

They’ve won a cup, ending a six-year trophy drought in the process, and they’re in the semi of the FA Cup.

 

This side might be clueless but its capable. It’s been good and bad for Liverpool this season.

 

Dalglish could still turn this around, so why change it?

 

If he genuinely doesn’t believe he can do any more for the club come the summer I believe he would walk away – he wants what is best for Liverpool.

 

As he said the first time around: “I would be the first to realise if I wasn’t good enough and then I would confront it.”

 

Does the club really want to go down the road of a fourth manager in two years if it can be avoided?

 

And if it does when does that policy stop? It’s an expensive and unsustainable approach – after all, Liverpool doesn’t have Roman Abramovich sitting in the boardroom to soak up the pay-offs.

 

Dalglish has been in charge for 15 months and 65 games. Every manager Liverpool has ever had bar Hodgson was afforded more time.

 

Going back to Ferguson in the 89-90 season, Martin Edwards at the time was said to be seriously considering sacking Ferguson, although he was worried about United becoming ‘a sacking club’.

 

The directors were also reported to have recognised the reasons for the slump – with injuries top of the mitigating circumstances.

 

It’s just one of the reasons Dalglish could cite for this season’s league performances.

 

Lucas, Glen Johnson, Steven Gerrard, Daniel Agger – all have missed significant numbers of games. In the case of Lucas and Agger in particular, their influence on team performance is huge.

 

Then there was the Luis Suarez sideshow. Dalglish handled it badly. So did the rest of the club. But in pure football terms it robbed the manager of his most effective attacker – and Suarez has never been the same again since.

 

The summer signings largely haven’t worked – that can’t be ignored. Andy Carroll, too, still has a lot to prove.

 

But they’re capable of more. There are players in there – we’ve seen it.

 

A new manager would call for new players. A new system. Liverpool would be back to square one.

 

And who would that manager be? There’d be candidates, of course there would be. But what would the calibre of them be?

 

It was the pulling power of the club – or rather the lack of it – that prompted Dalglish to put himself forward for the job in the first place.

 

Is Liverpool any more attractive a proposition now? There’s still no stadium. There’s still no Chelsea or Man City-esque pot of gold to spend and there will be no place in the Champions League next season to tempt the top players. Talk of Jose Mourinho is fanciful for many reasons, not least for expecting an ego like that to work with a director of football.

 

The blood is still being wiped from the walls of Anfield from the messy battle to rid the club of Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

 

Then, under Rafa Benitez, it was the best midfield in the world. Now it’s not even the best midfield in the league.

 

World-class talent was replaced with lesser replacements. The pendulum is yet to swing back the other way. That will be the same whoever is in charge in the dugout.

 

And does starting again under a new manager minus a big budget make any sense at all?

 

Perhaps a master tactician could come in, drill the current squad and offer a more results-orientated approach to matters – points first, performances second.

 

But Liverpool have had such managers in Gerard Houllier and Rafa Benitez. People still moaned and the media still sniped.

 

Perhaps instead of championing change expectations should be reeled in and tolerance extended to a man who has won the top division four times.

 

Top four this season – or even higher – always seemed ambitious after what had come before. The turnover over of players has been huge, so it was always a big ask, particularly with an aim to lower wages and without the lure of Europe.

 

Other teams looked better equipped and further developed from day one – so it has proved, although the Liverpool squad has clearly underachieved while the summer signings have largely failed.

 

The smart buys of Newcastle that contributed to the latest setback only served as a painful reminder of what can happen when money is spent wisely.

 

Dalglish and Damien Comolli need to learn the lessons from the last few windows – that’s if they are given the chance.

 

But whatever happens, whoever leads the team, Liverpool will face the same problems.

 

Liverpool is still deemed a big club, but now it’s for its history and its support. It’s not the first-choice destination for players, it’s not offering the biggest wages and it plays in an ageing ground that is dwarfed by those of rival clubs.

 

Now, if Manchester United and Liverpool chase the same player the player goes to Old Trafford. Ashley Young and Phil Jones are testimony to that fact – the boot has long been on the other foot.

 

Yet expectations remain unchecked. None of it matters. It’s always the manager’s fault. It’s always that easy. When a manager’s lost it, he’s lost it – he can’t pull it back, can he?

 

Ferguson did. Perhaps Kenny can. While that possibility remains it’s a chance worth taking.

 

STICK OR TWIST? A LESSON FROM HISTORY // The Anfield Wrap

[Guest ShoePiss]

Nor, from misplacing a pass and watching it disappear rapidly into your own half while you pick your arse and stroll slowly back to wash and repeat.

 

You can't show the level of disrespect that some players have the last couple of games and then demand support. We're a pretty forgiving bunch work hard and we'll support you even if your're shit (mostly) but to do the surrender monkey thing and then demand support. Fuck off.

 

Twice now you've said the players have no right to demand support. You know Roy hasn't been a player since before we were born so what are you going on about? Stop going on about this, read the fucking article and shut up.

 

Evans is saying that now, more than ever Kenny and the team need our support and he's fucking right.

[xerxes]

Then you get so called fans telling our own players to 'fuck off'? Jesus wept. I wonder how long some of these fans would have lasted in the Kop during the 60's and 70's telling our players to 'fuck off.'

 

It happened all the time, and the Kop was no less crtitical in the 70's.

 

Without radio phone ins and internet message boards a saturday afternoon was the ONLY means to communicate how you felt - and no-one held back. In many respects it was that which encouraged the players, they knew the crowd would not tolerate anything less than 100% every week .

 

The weak were weeded out.The plyers didn't need to wait for Shanks to put up the next games team sheet- the crowd had done that for him.

 

Any idea that St John, Yeats, Lawler, Tosh et al needed the support of the crowd would have been laughed at - those players earned the respect, admiration and love of the crowd every time they pulled on the shirt, they didn't need to ask the fans to be nice to them.

[Guest ShoePiss]

The players aren't asking for anything, what is so hard about this?

 

It's a fact that a supportive crowd helps the home team. Sitting there waiting for the team to be worthy of your fucking special cheer isn't going to help them at all. Why not do something positive?

[piscinin]

Twice now you've said the players have no right to demand support. You know Roy hasn't been a player since before we were born so what are you going on about? Stop going on about this, read the fucking article and shut up.

 

Evans is saying that now, more than ever Kenny and the team need our support and he's fucking right.

 

You're splitting hairs. The point remains if players don't make an effort support will drift. Support is never unconditional and nor should it be. We set the bar pretty low. Look like you give a shit is all we ask.

 

Of course now more than ever the team needs support, but more than that it needs players to at least put a fucking shift in. If someone can't be arsed put in a 90 minute shift why should he be supported. They should be fucked off to the bench.

[Colonol]

The players need our support but they don't deserve it. Only Kenny does. Football has changed it is now a business. You can't compare times now to way before.

 

These players are getting huge amounts of money to perform and they simply aren't. There is no loyalty from most players so to excpect unreserved support is a joke.

 

If they are mentally not right then how about they spend some of their ridiculous pay and free time working with mental coaches and fixing it not expecting fans to lift them up when they don't deserve it.

 

If they want the fans to sing their name how about taking a pay cut one week and allowing all the supporters to go to a game for free. Their name will be sung then.

[Coro]

A quote from an article i read about Thatcher a while back -

 

We are, today, as she made us. A paranoid, divided, mean-spirited nation, full of resentment, envy, greed and distrust.

 

Replace 'she' with 'they' and 'nation' with 'support' and it's the perfect description.