negativity towards Steven Gerrard?

[shaunstrudwick]

I agree he shouldn't have played but it just shows the managers complete reliance on him over the time he's been here.

 

bottom line is that it's Rafa's fault for:

 

1. playing him last night

2. not buying more match winners since his arrival in 2004

[Archimede]

I agree he's been crap.

 

I think he's a wonderful wonderful player. However in my eye being a wonderful player in itself does not make a wonderful captain.

 

I always thought Rush and Barnes were shite Captains. Tow of the clubs greatest players (in my first 11) but not captains.

 

I think like the rest of the team the managers caution and the current maliase the team is facing when it was expecting to kick on from last season promise has had a massive effect on Gerard.

 

Gerrard appears to be a glum individual who is not the most positive of personalities. (I dont know - just my impression) I think he's performances reflect his personality and he cannot lift the team that is playing within itself on his own. Torres lifts Gerrards spirits and in turn facilitate him lifting the team.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I was screaming at him to take a defensive player off and put Aquilani on. You know, just so we could at least have as many attacking players as defensive ones on the pitch against one of the worst teams in the league.

 

I suspect Gerrard stayed on the pitch as Rafa knows he's saved him a fwe times before and that there isn't really anyone else who's shown they can do it. I mean, where would we have been over the last 5 years without Gerrard? I agree he shouldn't have played but it just shows the managers complete reliance on him over the time he's been here.

 

I was screaming to get him because he was the worst out there last night.

 

Who knows were we would have been without Gerrard over the past 5 years. It's something we will never know.

 

aws is bang on the money with his post by the way people.

[shaunstrudwick]

Torres lifts Gerrards spirits and in turn facilitate him lifting the team.

 

that's cos Torres is the only other outfield player who is truely world class in our team

[bigal]

He wasn't fit so I didn't expect him to be on top form (or to play the full game) but there's no excuse for not being able to get a corner past the first man time after time

[dirty_sanchez]

He's a rose in amongst thorns.

 

He has to play with Carragher, Skrtel, The Greek, Insua, Degen, Lucas, Mascherano, Kuyt and Ngog - no wonder he is not playing well and looks unhappy.

 

He's our captain for fucks sake, not an eight year old playing in a park side.

[dirty_sanchez]

People need to have a word with themselves for turning on Gerrard in these times, especially the people on here who keep/kept saying, "You can't sack Rafa after one bad half to a season".

 

The lad has been the heart and soul of this club for the past 10 years or so. He's dragged us out of trouble and towards glory more times than I care to remember. We were, at the end of Houllier's reign, the closest I've seen to a one man team and we still managed finished in the Champions League places then mainly due to him. The way some people have staunchly defended Benitez on here, literally being appalled at his naysayers in the process, can lay into Stevie for the way things are is fucking ridiculous.

 

Redexile got it right in my eyes earlier when he pointed out the constant missing out of our midfield and hoofing hopeful long balls to the top, which they've become accustomed to because of 2 reasons, Stevie and Nando. They are the targets of Carra et al's eyes wide shut hit and hopes. They've probably realised there's no point giving it to Lucas because it'll only end up back with them 5 seconds later after he one-twos it with them or gives it a 10 yard square ball to Masch who then knocks it back. Unbelievable!

 

Talking about Lucas, I for one am right behind the lad. I don't think he's good enough to be started every week, but as a squad player he's perfect in terms of attitude and ability. He got ridiculous support when he was shite, and when I say he was shite, it wasn't Gerrard shite, it was pants down after a vindaloo shite. Why does Stevie not get the same support?

 

I've read on here that "we owe Rafa this" and "we owe Rafa that" after Istanbul and pushing us to "the next level", but surely even his most devout supporters could say that not even he has done for this club what Stevie G has.

 

Come on guys, a bit of perspective please!

 

So because Gerrard has been great in the past means that we should allow him to mope around like a soft arse and not put any effort in?

[sh#t waffle]

He's spent a large portion of this season either injured, coming back from injury or playing with an injury. I fully agree that he's been awful this season, but I do think there are mitigating circumstances beyond him being a sulky twat.

[Malarkey]

Don't sack Rafa, blame the players (most of which he's brought in) and Gerrard. Carragher is past it apprarently, too. From what I've heard.

[Curly]

So because Gerrard has been great in the past means that we should allow him to mope around like a soft arse and not put any effort in?

 

 

I never said any of that anywhere in my post. What I was getting at is that many are quick to defend others who are less deserving when things aren't going right. Stevie deserves a bit of leeway. Fact

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I never said any of that anywhere in my post. What I was getting at is that many are quick to defend others who are less deserving when things aren't going right. Stevie deserves a bit of leeway. Fact

 

3 or 4 games of poor form then maybe I would agree with this, however nearly 5 months of shite does not warrant anybody any leeway. We owe him nothing. We owe nobody anything.

[Curly]

3 or 4 games of poor form then maybe I would agree with this, however nearly 5 months of shite does not warrant anybody any leeway. We owe him nothing. We owe nobody anything.

 

I agree with that. I think he has earned the leeway though. He'll come good. It isn't a coincidence that it coincides with the club being completely shit in general.

 

He has been nowhere near our worst performer. Nowhere near. Last night he was trying things that just didn't come off or chasing long balls, not just jibbing it off

[PaulMcC]

If he plays shit, people will say he played shit.

 

Nothing wrong with that.

[rebel23]

Gerrard's performance yesterday was an embarrassment for a top player in the premiership, he is not fit and I cant believe he wasn't subbed

[dirty_sanchez]

I never said any of that anywhere in my post. What I was getting at is that many are quick to defend others who are less deserving when things aren't going right. Stevie deserves a bit of leeway. Fact

 

Not fact. People who don't have the ability but are doing their best like Lucas or Ngog deserve the leeway. Players who have all the ability in the world and aren't arsed deserve none regardless of what they've done in the past.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I agree with that. I think he has earned the leeway though. He'll come good. It isn't a coincidence that it coincides with the club being completely shit in general.

 

Personally no mate I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

He has been nowhere near our worst performer. Nowhere near. Last night he was trying things that just didn't come off or chasing long balls, not just jibbing it off

 

I agree he's not been our worst. I disagree about last night, he offered nothing whatsoever. He didn't seem to be trying to me. He look completely and totally unarsed.

[The 5th Benitel]

Has anyone considered that, given that he's approaching 30, he might not be capable of charging around and winning games on his own like he used to?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Gerrard's performance yesterday was an embarrassment for a top player in the premiership, he is not fit and I cant believe he wasn't subbed

 

If he's not fit he should tell the manager that he's not fit and therefore should not be putting himself forward to be picked.

[dirty_sanchez]

Has anyone considered that, given that he's approaching 30, he might not be capable of charging around and winning games on his own like he used to?

 

Well he managed it last season.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Has anyone considered that, given that he's approaching 30, he might not be capable of charging around and winning games on his own like he used to?

 

He's 30 not 50.

 

It's not about charging round and winning games, it's about looking interested and doing what Carragher did against Spurs last week, firing the team up and motivating them.

[Soleilrouge]

the guy should be sold

[The 5th Benitel]

Well he managed it last season.

 

 

 

Yeah, but there comes a point where the legs wont let you do it anymore. I'm not saying that is the case, but it's a possibililty. Players, especially ones who have had injury problems throughout their career, get to a point where their legs aren't up to what they used to be.

[The 5th Benitel]

He's 30 not 50.

 

It's not about charging round and winning games, it's about looking interested and doing what Carragher did against Spurs last week, firing the team up and motivating them.

 

Players dont remain all-action far into their 30s. I agree about motivating the team but he looks like he's given up hope of achieving what he wanted to with this team. Not that that's an excuse.

[Curly]

Personally no mate I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

 

 

I agree he's not been our worst. I disagree about last night, he offered nothing whatsoever. He didn't seem to be trying to me. He look completely and totally unarsed.

 

I see why you'd say that, but first half he was running after balls, making tackles back at their midfield and getting on the ball as much as pos. He did invariably fuck it up at that point and admittedly, 2nd half he looked like his head had dropped completely.

 

I just hope it doesn't end up him fucking off down the Easy Lancs in the summer. I'd be gutted if we did lose him, as I think everyone would and fucking should be. Let's get behind him.

 

He's 2nd to none in effort produced in the name of this club. I really don't get where you're coming from by the way Sanchez

[Redshadow]

I said it in my big post earlier - AWS said it in a different way in his very good post to and I'll say it again in another big post now. This club is SUFFERING from 'Gerrard-Dependency''. He is TO involved as the Captain - he tries to take it ALL on his shoulders to get us out of the crap and the team think that to - hence when he's On the pitch, the others All look to him for corners, free-kicks, moments of magic etc and Never show their own abilities (and believe me, players like Lucas, Mascherano, Aquilani, Rodriguez, Riera, Torres and Agger DO have considerable ability of their own) and feel/are stifled as they expect the captain to Want to do everything for them and think he'll get angry if they don't let him and if he's marked out of the game? They don't bother thinking for themselves and hoof mindlessly.

 

Gerrard's damned if he does and if he doesn't - I think he EXPECTS to do it (save us from trouble) each time he plays and he LIKES being seen as the saviour but at the same time he takes EVERYTHING bad that happens to the club on the pitch to heart and thinks it's HIS fault and thus he can't function properly as Captain as he's either constantly trying to pull the club out the mire OR worrying that the terrible times on the pitch are ALL his fault. The Only exception to this was last season when we had what I call a Mature team - we had for the first time since the 1990 season a team of 'captains' who were willing and able to trust their OWN abilities collectively and ignore Gerrard unless Totally necessary - they had other ways to win through the team organised around Xabi, Riera, Torres, Benayoun, Mascherano AND Gerrard - but you see? Without Gerrard - that team COULD work anyway and Still win matches - WITH him it was so robust as a unit anyway that he could give FULL vent to his destructive abilities in the final third and with Torres he used that freedom to the full to form a truly fearsome partnership - our team was VERY well set up for last season - and much of the one before; But alas, not this season.

 

This time out - As we haven't replaced Alonso yet with Aquilani as the NEW fulcrum of our midfield (and believe me, he DOES have the ability to do that) then the only midfielder allowed to offer the passing ability and destructiveness to defences that Alonso offered is Gerrard - Aquilani's not settled in the team yet and Lucas is not ALLOWED to attack as he was taught to do as a young footballer for some unknown reason. And I think IF we keep relying on Gerrard it will only get worse as he STILL thinks he should save us all the time and STILL takes our struggles to heart as that's the type of man and captain he is; Gerrard's a very good captain when the team is functioning well as he can use his great abilities to the full within a settled team structure to inspire the players around him to FAR greater achievements than the sum of their parts but when things go wrong? That's when HE goes wrong as a player as he continually forgets himself as the leader and tries to solve ALL our difficulties on his own and because of his generally moody, self-blaming character - he takes Everything that goes wrong to heart - it weighs him down, his performances suffer, the team who look to him as we do at present suffer to and the whole club is dragged down ON the pitch as a result.

 

The solution? The answer is to do what we did over the last 2 seasons AGAIN from February 2008 when Rafa' first organised the personnel at his disposal around Alonso and Masch' into the 4-2-3-1 formation that has served us so well since but which does NOT work without an Alonso or an Aquilani as the passing fulcrum to supply Gerrard, the forwards and the wingers to do damage as they can; Rafa' NEEDS to get this formation working again as he's obviously not going to change it - he LOVES controlling the ball, being solid and controlling the game and this formation allows us to do all three And be devestating in attack If done correctly. Therefore Rafa' needs to build Another team that is 'mature' and not dependent on Gerrard or Torres as we had in the last 2 seasons - he needs to TRUST Aquilani and put him where Alonso was for a RUN of games whatever happens (although I suspect as he's that type of player, Alberto will probably play the same role as Xabi did but further forwards ala Scholes, Bergkamp or Lampard) he needs To TRUST Gerrard and Torres to learn to work with Alberto and he needs to TRUST Masch' on his own to anchor the midfield as without Xabi' - that formation can still work but will need only 1 holding midfielder from now on.

 

We need to build Another team of 'captains' with Gerrard just one among many stars not THE star fulls stop - that didn't work for United with Bryan Robson in the 80's and it won't work for us now - remember how we operated back then? NO-ONE was bigger than the club, EVERYONE'S position was under constant threat and NO-ONE was kept beyond their sell-by date. I'm not saying Stephen's past his sellby date now but he IS unchallenged for a position in the team which is wrong and sometimes I get the impression the club are eager to please him above all else which is just wrong. If he's lazy on the pitch as last night - it's because he's not MADE to sweat and work for his position and that NEEDS to change soon. Once he's done that and sorted out the heart of our midfield, I think as in the last 2 seasons - the other departments of the team will start to function effectively once more - our attack will be able to score more and more easily, our defence will not be under CONSTANT pressure from the midfield losing the ball as they have been this season and our midfield will KNOW what they're doing and who they're playing with as they don't at present - then Rafa' can be back to the position he was in at the end of last season (problem is it might take a Full pre-season next year for him to do this sorting out) with a settled midfield, defence and attack and he can improve areas of the team as and when but now?

 

For now, That hole in our midfield REALLY needs sorting out and this is what I think Rafa' should do to fill it - It's what I think he WILL do as well. I just don't think he believes at present that Aquilani can play game after game after game in OUR league non-stop yet as Xabi once did - Don't forget back in 2004 he did EXACTLY the same thing with Alonso to - he eased him in slowly and how many times was Xabi on the bench when we thought he should be playing and we shouted for Rafa' to play him ahead of Diao/Hamann? More than a few I think. Basically it's a TRUST issue - we Need to build another team that Trusts itself to play and dominate as we did last season and Win lots without Gerrard (or Torres if necessary) and we need to do it quick as the longer we rely on Gerrard the worse we'll be in his current malaise (it doesn't help that his legs have started to go with age either), we need to build a team where we TRUST Aquilani and Masch' to run the midfield as Xabi and Masch' did with Lucas as backup and we NEED to do it soon - however as I said before, only one man can do all this so it's over to Rafa' now.........................................