Fulham match thread

[Randy Marsh]

Will be interesting to see if Kenny breaks up Agger/Skrtel after last night and brings Carra back in. I thought they played well and I wouldn't personally, but we'll see.

[Red Banjo]

There's definitely something going on with referees. That guy was out to stiff us last night. The same in the Spurs game, which came directly after Kenny had his first outburst at referees after being mugged against Stoke.

 

I wonder if Riley is involved in this, having a quick word with his men before a game.

 

Spurs are enjoying a right good run with favourable decisions at the moment.

 

Wouldn't shock me in the least if there's a few bent refs taking bungs, in fact with all the money swilling around the game and all the dodgy characters running clubs it would be a miracle if it was squeaky clean.

 

Using the Spurs game is a poor example. Just as we were on the day. There was not much wrong with the decisions that day - Adam was stupid and everyone could see Skrtel was a red card waiting to happen.

[billypilgrimnz]

Will be interesting to see if Kenny breaks up Agger/Skrtel after last night and brings Carra back in. I thought they played well and I wouldn't personally, but we'll see.

 

Why would he? The back four are the least of our worries at the moment. Skrtel and Agger are playing well, and it's not as if the attacking side of our game is going to benefit from Carragher's distribution at the back.

[zigackly]

Some belated observations from me:

 

Firstly, let's get the uncomfortable bit out of the way. It's only uncomfortable because of the nauseating point scoring by a few forum members in particular, but we plainly did miss Lucas. This season, and in the last few games in particular he has been excellent at snuffing out danger between the defence and midfield, and covering across the pitch when other players go forward. We had no-one in that role last night, and it allowed Dembele and Dempsey a lot of freedom in front of our back four, which they turned into a number of very good chances against the run of play.

 

I felt that Spearing, Adam and Henderson worked their socks off to cover for the lack of Lucas but for me there are two reasons why it didn't really work. Firstly, none of them are natural players for that role. Adam can play a holding role, but is not a defensive midfielder. Henderson is clearly much more comfortable going forward or drifting out to the right. And Jay is more of a box to box player than a sitting midfielder.

 

The second reason is that whilst at various times one of them would drop back into that space, none of them made the role their own, and there was considerable positional rotation in midfield. That's actually a fairly interesting idea, and one which Villas Boas used well at Porto to confound the opposition defence. However, I don't believe it worked well last night, and the simple explanation for that is that these three players simply have not had the time together yet to get used to such a flowing system, which depends on knowledge of when and where the other two are going to be. If that is how we intend to cover for the loss of Lucas then I don't necessarily have anything against it, but it is going to take time to get right, particularly with Jay out for three games, so for me it is back to the drawing board there.

 

One idea we may be forced to try is to bring Carra back into the defence and give Agger the role of sitting in front of the defence. Although I do not rate him at left back, I think the transition from central defence to a defensive midfield role is a lesser one, and I think it could probably work.

 

Having said all of the above, I'm now going to contradict myself slightly, by saying that the loss of Lucas had no bearing on the outcome of the game. The red card Jay got would not have been given by most refs, and it's clear he was a massive homer at best, or had an anti-Liverpool agenda at worst. I think Gary Neville got it right (spit) calling the tackle an orange card offence, but when you combine it with all the other decisions on the night which went Fulham's way then you have to call that referee biased.

 

I don't want to go through all of the decisions, but I will say that the Senderos tackle on Adam was in no way a penalty because the first contact took place outside the box; the block by Hangeland on Luis probably was, because he would clearly have got another touch on the ball if not for Hangeland's movement across him; and Luis was very unlucky to have the goal of the season incorrectly ruled out for offside.

 

It's sad to see, not just in our games, but in many others these days, that incompetent refereeing often has more influence on the outcome of games than the actual players, but when so many decisions are one way, then it leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.

 

That said, I think only one word is needed to say what cost us the game last night: finishing.

 

I tried to give Carroll time to adjust to playing at Liverpool but at this stage in his career with us he is not improving and is showing pretty much nothing. He had two sitters last night and put one straight down the goalies throat and miscontrolled the other, and we can no longer say that he is not getting the chances, because he is missing clear cut ones game after game. That said, I also don't think we can ignore Luis's misses last night and also in other games this season. I don't know if the racism/cheating accusations are affecting the lad, but he is not playing at his best at the moment and there was one in particular he blew sky high which was a woeful effort. Of course if his goal isn't incorrectly ruled out by the linesman then I don't say any of that, so perhaps I am being a little harsh, but I don't think he has been hitting the high notes since the Evra incident. Just my opinion.

 

Henderson and Downing were fiercely unlucky not to have scored, and Bellamy and Adam had their chances too.

 

However, if we don't sign a finisher in January then we only have ourselves to blame if we miss out on European qualification.

 

Fourth place is a tough ask, but by no means impossible as we are less than two wins away with more than half the season still to go. There is still an awful lot to play for, and if we start converting our chances we will be right up there.

 

Enrique goes from strength to strength for me. Agger and Skrtel are still first choice at centre back. Johnson had an awful error in showing Murphy onto his right foot, and although Pepe fumbled it, you have to give him that after he stopped so many other goal bound efforts. He can't do it all himself when we give that many chances away.

 

Henderson is looking better all the time. Adam is a genius. Maxi should have played. I love Craig Bellamy.

 

Think that's about it.

Edited December 6, 2011 by zigackly

[Whelan]

I genuinely don't think there is a hell of a lot wrong with us. To me, we are performing like a team in transition with a lot of new players, which is exactly what we are. There is plenty to be encouraged about. By and large we are dominating matches, but failing to win them. I can only hope that as we develop as a team we will iron out this floor. I know it is so frustrating but there is still cause for optimism. We have to be patient because we are definitely on the right track.

 

I pretty much agree with this, we didn't play poorly last night and considering we are a 'one man' team and that one man has been out for almost six months, what we have seen is promising.

 

With a bit of luck we would be comfortably 8 points better off.

 

But, we need to be more clinical, to often there is a wasted final ball, a missed defensive tackle, and a wasted shot.

[Guest davelfc]

Zig you're going to be hearing from my solicitor, I think I have a decent case for repetitive strain injury due to nodding at your posts.

[stringvest]

Excellent post Ziggers. It will take a few games for the midfield to settle down, but I am sure we will compensate for Lucas's absence. Spearing getting a ban is not the best news we had yesterday.

 

Carroll - we've all been willing him on, but it's not happening, and we're not playing a system that will get the best from him. It's a shame, but playing him is not a luxury that the team can afford. We do need to go shopping in Jan.

[Guest TK-421]

Good report, zig.

[Anubis]

Well balanced, Zig.

[zigackly]

Cheers fellas.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I thought Luis was very good yesterday, considering he was playing a much wider role.

 

Still, the thing I took from the game is that I want to buy Dembele. Prospect, fo' sho'

[zigackly]

Very good for him is still better than top form for most, don't get me wrong there.

 

I was thinking that about Dembele too.

[boomer39]

I dont blame the ref.

I dont blame missed chances because they had just as many.

I blame Glen Johnson because he's fucking crap, and anyone who doesn't think so needs their fucking heads testing!

He clearly has scaredofclosinganyonedownitus, the fucking weapon.

You can always tell after five minutes what kind of game he is gonna have.

Skinned by an old man, on the edge of his own box!

Wouldn't have happened to Kelly.

 

Neg away!

agree there, kelly HAS to be in, maybe play johnson in midfield, but NOT right back....

lost my faith in carroll, gave him the benefit of the doubt but enough is enough...

[s(k)aturation]

We are an acknowledged "attacking" side nowadays, aren't we? For an attacking side to only score 17 goals... despite the seemingly incredible run of outs with referees and the woodwork... whether we like it or not, means there's something wrong.

 

I love the way we're playing, really love it. But you can't love the results. And, by the way, I think 5 draws at Anfield is a lot more damning than a dodgy, referee-influenced loss at Craven Cottage on the Monday night graveyard shift.

 

I don't know the answers, apart from the obvious: striker. For this reason and because of the money involved, which is no fault of the lad's, and let's face it he is a lad which makes it all the harder to say, I have to say Carroll is a "no".

 

I can't explain why, but I think Henderson and Downing are both a "yes". I think they can both get there with us.

 

And Kuyt? Well, maybe it's time he was remembered for the United hat-trick.

 

I think we can make the Champion's League. But I can't explain why because I don't have the answers.

 

You'll have to ask zig for those...

[xerxes]

Some belated observations from me:etc

 

Some good stuff in there Zig.

 

On the midfield were the players not up to it? Did Kenny set us up wrong? Or did they simply not play well? Pretty much any combination that we put out should be more than a match for Fulham.

 

I can’t see that moving Agger forwards would help. Our problem is in not scoring enough goals, not in conceding too many, so adding a defender in Carra as well is unlikely to assist there.All Kenny’s success in the past has been built around a conventional 442, i don’t expect him to deviate from that. We agree that Maxi starting would have been a plus.

 

We differ on the ref issue. Of course Suarez goal should have stood. But blaming the ref for not beating Fulham is small-time, and encourages the players to think that they can blame referees for not winning games rather than looking to themselves. Progress is achieved by acting on what you can affect, not moaning about that which you cannot.

 

Carroll? This debate will run and run. One thing is for certain CL qualification will depend upon us getting more goals than we are at the moment.

 

Like you, I think that CL qualification is on. The Mancs are beyond us. I have not been surprised by Arsenal’s recovery, but wonder about RVP, and whether he will sustain his form and stay? Chelsea are better than their recent performances have suggested, will AVB pull them through? Spurs ability to score goals probably puts them ahead of us at the moment, but no-one knows how Harry’s tax trial will pan out in January.

 

Beyond that the Euro map is shifting, without us. PSG will become a force both in the CL and for CL quality players, Anzhi Makhachkala’s money will talk, the German League economically will prosper and the emerging Brazillian economy will drastically reduce the number of South American players coming to Europe, let alone England. How we play that hand, stadium and all, is a massive task for very inexperienced owners. But being on the inside looking out, rather than the outside looking in, has never been more important.

 

Johnson’s unsuitability as a specialist full back was exposed in his Chelsea days, whether Kenny will use his undoubted skills further forwards remains to be seen. Henderson is indeed settling down fine and Bellamy is showing Carroll that you have to enjoy life at the top while you can.

 

We are facing 2012 with EL football on, CL qualification a possibility, a League cup semi final to look forwards to and Stevie G to come back – Fulham will (thankfully) soon be forgotten, there is much to look forwards to.

[zigackly]

On the midfield were the players not up to it? Did Kenny set us up wrong? Or did they simply not play well? Pretty much any combination that we put out should be more than a match for Fulham.

 

None of the above, in my opinion. We did not lose the game because of the performance of our midfield three, Spearing's tackle apart, and that was an either way decision, depending on the ref.

 

I can’t see that moving Agger forwards would help. Our problem is in not scoring enough goals, not in conceding too many, so adding a defender in Carra as well is unlikely to assist there.All Kenny’s success in the past has been built around a conventional 442, i don’t expect him to deviate from that. We agree that Maxi starting would have been a plus.

 

Although I don't attribute the loss to our performance in midfield, we did give away far too many chances, with Dembele and Dempsey both able to freely exploit the space in front of the back four, and on another day could easily have conceded from any one of those chances. With Spearing also out, this problem will only be exacerbated. Hence my suggestion that Agger may be able to fill a gap, although perhaps for the home games we could get away without it.

 

We differ on the ref issue. Of course Suarez goal should have stood. But blaming the ref for not beating Fulham is small-time, and encourages the players to think that they can blame referees for not winning games rather than looking to themselves. Progress is achieved by acting on what you can affect, not moaning about that which you cannot.

 

Note that I have not blamed the ref for not beating Fulham. In fact, I blamed it on our finishing. I will discuss decisions by referees as I see fit though, and I do think his poor decisions in Fulham's favour were marked. Interestingly both the Guardian and Independent also commented on this in their match reports, so it is not an unusual or even biased perspective.

 

I don't disagree with the rest of your post.

 

One thing I didn't mention in my previous post about Johnson however is that I wonder if we might not prefer Kelly on occasion, if we need a more defensive balance to the side in the absence of Lucas.

[Jairzinho]

I find it difficult to blame Johnson (not saying you are, Zig) for the defeat. He made one glaring error, our midfield and forwards made loads.

[zigackly]

I find it difficult to blame Johnson (not saying you are, Zig) for the defeat. He made one glaring error, our midfield and forwards made loads.

 

Again, I am blaming the defeat squarely on our lack of quality finishing. If we put away one or more of our chances, then we get a draw or a win, regardless of Jay's sending off or their goal.

 

However, Johnson made a howler showing Danny Murphy of all people onto his right foot, it must be said.

[Paco]

we gave murphy far too much room all night. he's still a good player who can hurt teams when he's given time on the ball. evetually we paid the price for that. Feared it wouldn't be our night when henderson hit the inside of the post but what followed makes it even harder to come to terms with defeat especially when we had so many chances.

 

i'm sorry to say my heart sunk a little when i saw carroll was in the starting line up. maxi had to start this game and that decision looks to have been a costly one tody. we had 10+ corners and carroll was nowhere near any of them and missed two good chances. don't think he played particularly badly just about as well as he did against chelsea in the cup but we won that game so his performance didn't really matter. when we draw and lose games then carrolls lack of goals and the overall performance of the team when he's in it comes into question. I really like the lad and he hasn't even been here a year yet but we look a better team without him in the side. I think he can have a future here. he just needs someone to take the burden of scoring goals off him.

 

I'm not blaming carroll for last night. reina and GJ fucked up badly for the goal. we're playing nice football, creating loads of chances but we're still not converting them. I maintain we are one "fox in the box" type player away from being real title contenders. I don't know why people are suggesting we need a right winger or a number 10. we're creating loads of chances we don't need to create any more we need to start putting them in the net.

[xerxes]

Zig, I think that you are right not to over focus on our midfield, who overall I agree were alright. Your Agger observations are intriguing, maybe greater solidity would provide a better platform for attacks, whilst not in itself creating them?

 

On the reffing side, no-one, certainly not me can argue that we did not get the rub of the green last night. My difference with some is the psychology of how we respond, and Kenny, to his credit, has done the right thing, and moved on.

 

Your point about Kelly’s discipline as a specialist full back is well made.

[zigackly]

In terms of the Maxi/Carroll thing, I believe Kenny was intending to bring Maxi on later in the game when Fulham were tiring (hence why we saw him warming up) but that plan was spoiled by Jay's sending off. Would it have worked? We will never know. I don't think it's an exercise which should be repeated in an important game though! I'd rather see Downing given game time than Carroll because at least he doesn't look like a dead loss.

[Paco]

oh and why are we still not putting the same pressure on fulham and the likes as we put on chelsea and man city when they have the ball?

 

totally fucking baffles me and costs us 10's of points season after season. it's a malaise. Pure fucking complacency. when will we ever learn?

[Guest LFD]

I was really disappointed when I saw the line up and I said as much in this thread, as I don't see what Carroll has done to justify starting for us in the league. I also think Maxi is incredibly unlucky, given he has scored 10 goals in his last 9 starts and that is something our side is missing - goals!

 

Last season Hangeland couldn't cope with Suarez and he must have been delighted seeing Carroll in the team, so he can stick with him - given he has little movement, skill or pace.

 

Our side have looked best in attack when the trio of Bellamy, Maxi and Suarez have all started - Brighton in the first half these three were superb. They were against Chelsea in the league a few weeks ago. When have we looked good this season with Carroll on the pitch? We haven't!

 

Carroll wasn't the reason we lost. The ref made a dreadful decisions, IMO. However watching Sky Sports News this morning they are all saying it was the right decision. They had Jeff Winter on explaining you can't tackle like that anymore,as he wasn't in control and was uneccessary aggression. They got the rules and the ref was right, by the book, but anyone who has played football knows that was a good tackle and football has gone soft, which is such a shame.

 

Felt sorry for Reina, as he was having a really good game until the goal, but keepers know when they make one mistake it can be costly and unfortunately for us it cost us last night.

 

I think we did miss Lucas, although not massively, just a few times in the game I thought Lucas would have made tackles or been in the right position when other weren't. But Spearing was winning the ball, as was Adam. Henderson looked good in possession and was really unlucky with that run and shot, great bit of skill, he also put a good shift in with lots of running - but he can't really tackle. He can intercept the ball and that is the only way he wins the ball, but he looks too scared to give away freekicks and will not put his foot in to win the ball. like Adam, Spearing or Lucas do. An area he clearly has to improve on.

 

But at times last night we had a lot of possession and I think the centre midfield did their job on the whole. The problem was not creating enough chances or taking the chances when we got them. It has been our problem most of the season - Kuyt has not been playing well and is rightly not playing, Downing is not known for his goals, Gerrard is injured, Suarez is more of a creator (and a number 10) than a finishers (and a number 9), Maxi is on the bench and Carroll has been woeful. In January I think we have to bring in a striker, someone who can finish these chances we are creating, as defensively and in midfield we look a very good side, in Suarez, Bellamy and Maxi we have spark and creators - we just miss a Fowler, a Owen, a Torres or a Rush to finish.

 

We didn't deserve to lose, IMO, having said that I don't think we deserved to win either. This side is still perfectly capable of getting in the top four, but Dalglish has to start picking the right team and that means dropping Carroll (sell him hopefully) and playing Maxi, thankfully he has realised Bellamy should be starting. I blame Dalglish for this match more than the ref. The ref was just following the rules, which are wrong IMO and Spearings tackle should be fine, they need to change the rules and realise what a good tackle is. But Dalglish didn't play our best attacking threats, when we have been short of goals all season. Not the first time he has done it this season as well. Downing, Carroll and Henderson aren't goal threats and too often this season these three have been playing in the attacking front four positions, over Bellamy and Maxi. It has cost us, as has not having a real goalscorer. I don't think we look one of the best sides in the league defensively, some of our passing a build up play is brilliant, we are doing a hell of a lot right. If this side had a Fowler or Rush we'd be top four at the moment - I'm sure of it!

[Jairzinho]

 

However, Johnson made a howler showing Danny Murphy of all people onto his right foot, it must be said.

 

True, but according to the BBC website Fulham had 20 shots. As a team we didn't prevent chances as well as we should have done.

 

If Dempsey and Dembele were good at finishing we could have conceded several.

 

But as you've mentioned, these defensive errors shouldn't have been of much importance, we should have scored plenty ourselves.

[Trucker Paddy]

I was really disappointed when I saw the line up and I said as much in this thread, as I don't see what Carroll has done to justify starting for us in the league. I also think Maxi is incredibly unlucky, given he has scored 10 goals in his last 9 starts and that is something our side is missing - goals!

 

Last season Hangeland couldn't cope with Suarez and he must have been delighted seeing Carroll in the team, so he can stick with him - given he has little movement, skill or pace.

 

Our side have looked best in attack when the trio of Bellamy, Maxi and Suarez have all started - Brighton in the first half these three were superb. They were against Chelsea in the league a few weeks ago. When have we looked good this season with Carroll on the pitch? We haven't!

 

Carroll wasn't the reason we lost. The ref made a dreadful decisions, IMO. However watching Sky Sports News this morning they are all saying it was the right decision. They had Jeff Winter on explaining you can't tackle like that anymore,as he wasn't in control and was uneccessary aggression. They got the rules and the ref was right, by the book, but anyone who has played football knows that was a good tackle and football has gone soft, which is such a shame.

 

Felt sorry for Reina, as he was having a really good game until the goal, but keepers know when they make one mistake it can be costly and unfortunately for us it cost us last night.

 

I think we did miss Lucas, although not massively, just a few times in the game I thought Lucas would have made tackles or been in the right position when other weren't. But Spearing was winning the ball, as was Adam. Henderson looked good in possession and was really unlucky with that run and shot, great bit of skill, he also put a good shift in with lots of running - but he can't really tackle. He can intercept the ball and that is the only way he wins the ball, but he looks too scared to give away freekicks and will not put his foot in to win the ball. like Adam, Spearing or Lucas do. An area he clearly has to improve on.

 

But at times last night we had a lot of possession and I think the centre midfield did their job on the whole. The problem was not creating enough chances or taking the chances when we got them. It has been our problem most of the season - Kuyt has not been playing well and is rightly not playing, Downing is not known for his goals, Gerrard is injured, Suarez is more of a creator (and a number 10) than a finishers (and a number 9), Maxi is on the bench and Carroll has been woeful. In January I think we have to bring in a striker, someone who can finish these chances we are creating, as defensively and in midfield we look a very good side, in Suarez, Bellamy and Maxi we have spark and creators - we just miss a Fowler, a Owen, a Torres or a Rush to finish.

 

We didn't deserve to lose, IMO, having said that I don't think we deserved to win either. This side is still perfectly capable of getting in the top four, but Dalglish has to start picking the right team and that means dropping Carroll (sell him hopefully) and playing Maxi, thankfully he has realised Bellamy should be starting. I blame Dalglish for this match more than the ref. The ref was just following the rules, which are wrong IMO and Spearings tackle should be fine, they need to change the rules and realise what a good tackle is. But Dalglish didn't play our best attacking threats, when we have been short of goals all season. Not the first time he has done it this season as well. Downing, Carroll and Henderson aren't goal threats and too often this season these three have been playing in the attacking front four positions, over Bellamy and Maxi. It has cost us, as has not having a real goalscorer. I don't think we look one of the best sides in the league defensively, some of our passing a build up play is brilliant, we are doing a hell of a lot right. If this side had a Fowler or Rush we'd be top four at the moment - I'm sure of it!

 

Kenny disallowed a perfectly good goal, refused a certain pen, refused to send off Dempsey refused to give senderous a 2nd yellow and caused Reina to fuck up for the goal, all this because Maxi didn't start?