Ged on his way to Villa

[VladimirIlyich]

Narrow-minded view, in terms of cup success he provided definitely more, even though with his luck, including massive referee mistakes in his favour he was never charged with, the way Rafa was, Roy would surely bring some silverware.

Roy nurtured young lads from academy and gave them taste of PL, implemented some great football as well. The team was maybe a bit ahead of schedule, had younger spine than everteen Arsenal now, needed just a manager to let them make a final step and tactical approach. Not only Houllier failed in this area, but he worsened us in the league. Houllier had definitely good base to build on, much better than his successor inherited and didn't lead club to reachable success. He brought more trophies than Roy, but should have done better with maturing teamspine he had. Even if he did extremely well, he never lived up to his own self-praise.

 

Agree with the Evans part as he did give a good base to work from.

But saying Houllier worsened us in the league compared to Evans is wrong considering Houllier finished 2nd in 2002.

 

I dont like this pitching manager v manager mentality,they all did good jobs in different ways and we should be grateful for them all.

[Captain]

Can't see anything wrong in Houllier's comments there.

 

Gotta love Gary Mac when asked how it was to put his boots back on: The pitch seemed a bit bigger!

[moses]

Fuck me, there was a time when we would have lauded our returning players and ex managers. Now we seem to be very bitchy.

 

The way some people go on, you'd think Houllier deliberately fucked the club up.

 

Gave me some great memories. Was exactly what we needed post Evans and was very poorly during his time here and was genuinely touched by all of our support during that time. All in all a decent bloke, if not a limited manager, and bitterness towards him is childish. Was involved in moulding Carras and Gerards future careers too.

[23CARRAGOLD]

He will do very well at Villa as far as I'm concerned. He is light years ahead of Martin O'neill in his tactical astuteness.

[Trumo]

The truth is, since Souness was sacked, each manager has improved the squad and found some success, and given the fans some memorable nights, before things started to go pear-shaped. We got so near yet so far on each occasion. That we've lived in the shadow of the one club bar Everton that we are loathe to be successful makes it all the more galling. It's a case of "tried but failed" every time. In no way do I wish to diminish any of their successes, because I enjoyed each and every one.

[Cherry Ghost]

Really don't get this desire to stick the boot into Houllier, no team has ever done what Liverpool did in 2002 (every cup tie won, 4 cups, qualified for europe 4 times in the same year), Hypia, Hamman, Riise, Babbel, Gerrard brought through, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, and in the final year 4th. Same with Evans 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd (Carragher, Owen as was). Each in their own way, with Rafa, re-established LFC after the damage that Souness had done (Tanner, Picknik, Walters, Saunders, Speedie, remember those days when we really did look second rate).

 

I know he was French and that the mad summer of 2002 did for Houllier (diouf, diao and cheyrou) much the same way that £50m for Keane, Johnson and Aquilani (and wazzing off Alonso) when we had no back up for Torres did for Benitez (probably not all his fault given the plug was pulled) but he really did love LFC and was genuinely upset when 4th was not viewed as good enough. He had to go but we should leave the bitterness across the park. He's been a bit childish but I think the balance is in his favour. I hope we rise above the sort of crap that the supporters of other teams, blue noses included, get up with managers and past managers, Hodgson seems to be copping it now despite 5 wins and a draw from the first seven games, for god's sake we aren't Bolton.

[RJ Fan club]

Really don't get this desire to stick the boot into Houllier, no team has ever done what Liverpool did in 2002 (every cup tie won, 4 cups, qualified for europe 4 times in the same year), Hypia, Hamman, Riise, Babbel, Gerrard brought through, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, and in the final year 4th. Same with Evans 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd (Carragher, Owen as was). Each in their own way, with Rafa, re-established LFC after the damage that Souness had done (Tanner, Picknik, Walters, Saunders, Speedie, remember those days when we really did look second rate).

 

I know he was French and that the mad summer of 2002 did for Houllier (diouf, diao and cheyrou) much the same way that £50m for Keane, Johnson and Aquilani (and wazzing off Alonso) when we had no back up for Torres did for Benitez (probably not all his fault given the plug was pulled) but he really did love LFC and was genuinely upset when 4th was not viewed as good enough. He had to go but we should leave the bitterness across the park. He's been a bit childish but I think the balance is in his favour. I hope we rise above the sort of crap that the supporters of other teams, blue noses included, get up with managers and past managers, Hodgson seems to be copping it now despite 5 wins and a draw from the first seven games, for god's sake we aren't Bolton.

 

It was 2001 and Souness never signed Speedie. Kenny did, Souness got rid within his first six months or so.

 

I don't think Souness bought Tanner either, but he did play him though. So the defence of that is out the window.

[Cantrell20]

Fowler, McManaman, Redknapp all made their debuts under Souness! Carragher made his debut against Villa, scored and then dissapeared, it is a bit of a myth that.

 

And talk of underacheiving should be reserved for Evans, not Houllier.

 

Where did I suggest he brought them through the academy? He NURTURED them and eased their transision, I know they got their debuts some time earlier, with Redknapp and especially Macca 2-3 years ahead of Evans appointment. But I wouldn't be surprised if Houllier claimed their development his won. You know, he won the Champions League and he made Gerrard and Carragher proper footballers, so his reign must have been amost SAFishly long legacy. I wouldn't say Carragher disappeared, as he played in 20 games next season, as a holding midfielder against Arsenal for example. The one manager, who made him a reliable allrounder, too good for a benchie, but too weak for a fixture, was Gerard Houllier. Didn't play him at centreback for 4 years, quite much, isn't it? He was 26, nearly 27 when Rafa too over, he wasn't a young inexperienced defender anymore, still he didn't play on his best position. And Ged dares to claim to develope him...Pathetic, as his interview from July.

 

I know Liverpool underachieved under Evans, no doubt about that. But saying we became a force again under him is well off the mark. The only major change I saw in last 10-12 years in our club was our quality in Champions League under Rafa, very inconsistent in the league. He made us a force again, but only in Europe. I don't deny massive success we had in 2001, but if you look now how much we rode our luck then, is just unbelieveable. Rafa is said to have a pact with a devil and escape with Gerrard screamers, ghost goals and so on, but 2001 was one of the biggest windfalls I've seen in football. We were lucky under Rafa in CL at times, but our success there was repetitive, we got 4 European semis under Rafa and 1 under Ged, so who's more likely to rely on his luck then?

 

What I meant as underachievement under Ged was the fact he got worst average league position since Souness and worst points ratio in the league since Souey as well, around 9& less than under Rafa for example.

 

I think that his mentality and embarrasingly big ego, slating predecessor and successor, which neither Evans nor Rafa did and big selfishness demonstrated in interviews makes him a hate figure in these parts. As much as I enjoyed cup success under him (thought he deserved a sack in 2000 though), I struggle to like him. Respect for his achievements is obviously there, but morally I rate him very low.

[mypost]

I know Liverpool underachieved under Evans, no doubt about that. But saying we became a force again under him is well off the mark. The only major change I saw in last 10-12 years in our club was our quality in Champions League under Rafa, very inconsistent in the league. He made us a force again, but only in Europe. I don't deny massive success we had in 2001, but if you look now how much we rode our luck then, is just unbelieveable.

 

I think that his mentality and embarrasingly big ego, slating predecessor and successor, which neither Evans nor Rafa did and big selfishness demonstrated in interviews makes him a hate figure in these parts. As much as I enjoyed cup success under him (thought he deserved a sack in 2000 though), I struggle to like him. Respect for his achievements is obviously there, but morally I rate him very low.

 

After having to endure the mancs and others rob us of trophies, and games, not to mention the distress they caused, I honestly couldn't give a stuff how much we rode our "luck" that year tbh. If anything it was payback for all the misery we had endured since 1990.

 

Evans was a good coach, but left GH with a massive rebuilding job. That job was done in rapid time, taking Ragball Rovers from 8th to 4th in 18 months. He then got us into the CL and 2nd in successive years, and there was the numerous cups in between. He brought Gerrard into the team, at no cost to the club, and look at the player he is now.

 

GH had his flaws in his last 18 months, and had to go at the time he did. I'm not here to defend him, but words like "hate" to describe him are unfair imo. Since he left, we've won 2 trophies. Record points hauls, and the odd semi-final or two, dressed up as "achievements" since, don't cut much mustard with me.

[Jose Jones]

Roy, Ged and Rafa all had their qualities but failings as well ultimately.

 

Roy really got us back playing football after the dire Souness years - particularly with the key and clever decision to play Macca in a free role in midfield with Barnes and Redknapp. But ultimately the players didn't respect him enough and we were terribly mentally weak when it came to big games and the crucial end of the season. We made a big immediate improvement under Roy, but I still think he had the easiest competitive environment. The mancs weren't yet the juggernaut they turned into with Giggs, Beckham, Keane and Scholes, and Roy had pretty much equal or higher spending power to anyone in the league. The english league wasn't nearly as powerful then which perhaps showed in our generally dire European performances under Roy. A single solitary league cup success really hammers home how we didn't have the mentality to win things.

 

Houllier brought in the professional streak - after the joint managership debacle anyway - toughened up the defence, made us really hard to beat and 2001 was bloody brilliant (even if we weren't actually that great in any of the finals, we still won them! I can't believe the poster who said they were embarrassed after the Arsenal FA Cup final, one of my best memories of being a Liverpool fan). We had a decent following season to come second behind Arsenal in the league and really should have beaten Leverkusen in the Champions League quarter final. After his illness he definitely started to lose it though, we got more defensive and reliant on long balls to Owen, terrible signings of Diouf (instead of Anelka) and Diao. It was two things really that dis-endeared him to Liverpool fans, the sidelining and selling of Robbie Fowler and the delusional and embarrassing comments he continually made to the press for the last year or so of his reign. He does still seem to indulge in a bit of that regarding his time at the club, and particularly claiming credit for the Champions League win.

Houllier had to compete against the Mancs and Arsenal at their best under Wenger and for a couple of years there he gave as good as he got - we normally gave Arsenal a hiding at Anfield and there were the string of Danny Murphy wins against the Mancs - but ultimately we were undone by poor signings and cautious football.

 

I think Rafa initially had the hardest challenge domestically with the Mancs and Arsenal still strong, and the emergence of ridiculous amounts of money being all the more important factor in the game with the arrival at Chelsea of Abramovich. Still we spent a fair bit and probably competed to our level finishing above Arsenal 3 times and below 3 times in the league. One really good challenge when we came 2nd, but on the whole probably par. Rafa's main success obviously was the fantastic Champions League win in Istanbul and our continued high level of performance in the Chamions League following that. Rafa definitely helped lead the way, but he was also at the club when the rest of the Premier League was powerful in Europe. We also won one of the best FA cup finals of all time with the best FA cup final goal of all time. Bit similar to the 2001 finals in that we really didn't play well against West Ham but did just enough and had the bollocks (and genius of Steven Gerrard) to win.

I'm not sure many people will agree, but for me we generally played better football under Rafa than either of his predecessors. I liked the fact we were solid defensively and were hardly ever on the back foot against any teams, he was by nature slightly too cautious for some so it's a bit of irony that it was two 4-4 draws that scuppered our season two years ago.

However in the end poor transfer decisions in Keane, Dossena, Alonso and Aquilani (amongst others) coupled with the owners debt, politicking and wearing on some players stopped us from kicking on to where we should. There's also no getting away from the fact that Rafa's last season was worse than any of Evans' or Houllier's.

 

Unfortunately due to the owners it's going to be tricky for Roy to build the squad up to the level we were at our best under Rafa or Houllier, but hopefully he gets the chance under new ownership. And we finally sign a bloody good attacking wide player!

[TheHitman]

Slightly off topic but one of the things that grates on me is despite McManaman and Fowler being excellent for us on the pitch I feel we should have got even more out of them. When you think Scholes and Giggs are both older than Fowler and McManaman is only 18 months older than Giggs it puts things into perspective. Even dare I say Owen who is only 30 now we should have got more out of.

 

Now I acknowledge that Fowler was unlucky with injuries and McManaman had his eye on other things nonetheless it does make you wonder. It is one thing Ferguson has been excellent at generally ensuring his players put the club first and also managing to keep all his players although I acknowledge being able to pay squad players top money helps.

[gkmacca]

The Fowler issue still bemuses me. I've read Fowler's account, Thommo's account and bits and pieces of Houllier's various explanations, and none of them have struck me as particularly convincing but put together they don't add up. Player and management didn't trust one another: that's about all one can conclude. It still seems tragic that he wasn't kept and pushed to fulfil his full potential.

[Jonny83]

In my opinion every manager we've had after Souness has improved the club (excepting Hodgson for now, who time will judge) - even if maybe not in tangible measures like average points or league placings, or unusually-disastrous-final-seasons-in-charge-where-it-all-went-to-shit-and-finished-7th.

 

It was probably the right time for all three to leave when they did, but all three have my respect, and I'd never say any of them were shit managers for us. I'm not going to compare the three because each was working from a different starting point and under different conditions, Euro qualification rules, and so on.

 

Good luck to Ged if he lands the Villa job, so long as they finish below us and except when they play us, of course.

[gkmacca]

None of them were bad managers. I don't think many on here would suggest otherwise. Some elsewhere did when the managers were actually managing, calling them every name under the sun and sneering at everything they did, but now, miraculously, the same characters profess a deep and abiding respect for their work. It takes all sorts, I guess. With Houllier I think it's his curious personality that baffles some these days - sometimes extremely charming, and sometimes astonishingly petty. He left with such grace it's been a pity to hear some of the things he's said since then.

[korleis]

Where did I suggest he brought them through the academy? He NURTURED them and eased their transision, I know they got their debuts some time earlier, with Redknapp and especially Macca 2-3 years ahead of Evans appointment. But I wouldn't be surprised if Houllier claimed their development his won. You know, he won the Champions League and he made Gerrard and Carragher proper footballers, so his reign must have been amost SAFishly long legacy. I wouldn't say Carragher disappeared, as he played in 20 games next season, as a holding midfielder against Arsenal for example. The one manager, who made him a reliable allrounder, too good for a benchie, but too weak for a fixture, was Gerard Houllier. Didn't play him at centreback for 4 years, quite much, isn't it? He was 26, nearly 27 when Rafa too over, he wasn't a young inexperienced defender anymore, still he didn't play on his best position. And Ged dares to claim to develope him...Pathetic, as his interview from July.

 

I know Liverpool underachieved under Evans, no doubt about that. But saying we became a force again under him is well off the mark. The only major change I saw in last 10-12 years in our club was our quality in Champions League under Rafa, very inconsistent in the league. He made us a force again, but only in Europe. I don't deny massive success we had in 2001, but if you look now how much we rode our luck then, is just unbelieveable. Rafa is said to have a pact with a devil and escape with Gerrard screamers, ghost goals and so on, but 2001 was one of the biggest windfalls I've seen in football. We were lucky under Rafa in CL at times, but our success there was repetitive, we got 4 European semis under Rafa and 1 under Ged, so who's more likely to rely on his luck then?

 

What I meant as underachievement under Ged was the fact he got worst average league position since Souness and worst points ratio in the league since Souey as well, around 9& less than under Rafa for example.

 

I think that his mentality and embarrasingly big ego, slating predecessor and successor, which neither Evans nor Rafa did and big selfishness demonstrated in interviews makes him a hate figure in these parts. As much as I enjoyed cup success under him (thought he deserved a sack in 2000 though), I struggle to like him. Respect for his achievements is obviously there, but morally I rate him very low.

 

Totally agee with most of this. He is without a doubt my least favorite ex manager. Self-rightous, arrogant, lying, manipulating are words that I think of when I think of Ged. Plus the football under him was absolute shit.

 

On a side-note, why have our last 3 managers been primarly defensive managers? Out of the three I would say Rafa is the least defensive, and that says quite much about Ged and Roy...

 

I would love to see us continuously try to play good football, lot just now and then which pretty much has been the case for last decade.

[silverlining]

None of them were bad managers. I don't think many on here would suggest otherwise. Some elsewhere did when the managers were actually managing, calling them every name under the sun and sneering at everything they did, but now, miraculously, the same characters profess a deep and abiding respect for their work. It takes all sorts, I guess. With Houllier I think it's his curious personality that baffles some these days - sometimes extremely charming, and sometimes astonishingly petty. He left with such grace it's been a pity to hear some of the things he's said since then.

 

That is the way of Forums.

 

Benitez got virtually everything wrong in his last season here, which meant that some posters subsequently refused to give him any credit whatsoever for the tings he did get right.

 

In fact, I seem to recall one particularly dreadful poll in which many peopel seemed to think that getting rid of Benitez WAS MORE IMPORTANT than getting new owners.

 

That, right there, is insanity.

 

Personally, I think Benitez did do enough wrong to merit the sack, and I could

also see why Houllier was shown the door, but neither manager was "shit" or a "cunt" and they don't deserve to be abused or have their achhievements belittled.

[RobbieOR]

The way Fowler was treated done it for me. He should never have been sold and he was a much better player than Heskey. I think selling Fowler may have been the beginning of his downfall.

[Dicko]

neither manager was "shit" or a "cunt" and they don't deserve to be abused or have their achhievements belittled.

 

No they shouldn't have their achievements belittled, and they weren't shit.

Unfortunately though unlike Evans & Rafa, subsequently Houllier has been doing a fair impression of acting like a cunt.

 

I think it's fair to say that unlike the other two his bitterness & pettiness have all but consumed him.

[gkmacca]

Well, even Ged's critics wouldn't claim that he consciously tried to weaken his own team, so it was in his interests to get Fowler 'right' and keep him in the team. That's why the simplistic conspiracy theories either need more detail or are only partially convincing. Another (part of the) explanation would surely be thatRobbie wasn't entirely blameless. I honestly don't know enough about what really happened to make a serious judgment. Up until now the whole topic has been like Rashomon remade by someone addicted to crack and Special Brew.

[silverlining]

Well, even Ged's critics wouldn't claim that he consciously tried to weaken his own team, so it was in his interests to get Fowler 'right' and keep him in the team. That's why the simplistic conspiracy theories either need more detail or are only partially convincing. Another (part of the) explanation would surely be thatRobbie wasn't entirely blameless. I honestly don't know enough about what really happened to make a serious judgment. Up until now the whole topic has been like Rashomon remade by someone addicted to crack and Special Brew.

 

Well, I think selling Fowler for £11m was good business. He had flashes at Leeds of the brilliance we all know he had, but after the last bad knee injury (I think it was in the derby) his mobility was never the same, and his tenedency towards porkiness probably didn't help.

 

Tragically for Robbie and us, he was at his peak from 18-24, and it was all downhill from there.

[silverlining]

No they shouldn't have their achievements belittled, and they weren't shit.

Unfortunately though unlike Evans & Rafa, subsequently Houllier has been doing a fair impression of acting like a cunt.

 

I think it's fair to say that unlike the other two his bitterness & pettiness have all but consumed him.

 

I don't think David Ginola would argue with that

[gkmacca]

Well, I think selling Fowler for £11m was good business. He had flashes at Leeds of the brilliance we all know he had, but after the last bad knee injury (I think it was in the derby) his mobility was never the same, and his tenedency towards porkiness probably didn't help.

 

Tragically for Robbie and us, he was at his peak from 18-24, and it was all downhill from there.

 

Yes. And on top of all that he upset Dunk. There's no way back from that.

[Antynwa]

The thing with Ged is that we didn't get rid of him fast enough, he left a sour taste in the mouth of some Liverpool Fans, I feel about Benitez now what I felt when Houllier left.

 

But as time goes by I remember Ged fondly, despite me being a massive critic of his. I don't think many people could doubt his heart was in the right place (excuse the pun) the fella nearly died managing us and that deserves respect.

 

He gave us our pride back, Benitez may have took what Ged done and put us on another level in Europe. But it was Ged, who gave us something to smile about after years of shit. He gave us legends like Gary Macca, Riise (Pleb), Babbel, Hyypia to name a few, he gave us the treble and moments like the Derby win in '01.

 

I can look fondly upon Ged, and as I said, despite the fact I was a massive critic of his. I still love the fella and I was gutted that it went sour in the end.

 

I hope he does well with Villa.

 

In another 5 or so years I might say the same about Benitez ;) Although those wounds are somewhat more fresh. The Jaffa Cake eating.wanke.......

[silverlining]

The thing with Ged is that we didn't get rid of him fast enough, he left a sour taste in the mouth of some Liverpool Fans, I feel about Benitez now what I felt when Houllier left.

 

But as time goes by I remember Ged fondly, despite me being a massive critic of his. I don't think many people could doubt his heart was in the right place (excuse the pun) the fella nearly died managing us and that deserves respect.

 

He gave us our pride back, Benitez may have took what Ged done and put us on another level in Europe. But it was Ged, who gave us something to smile about after years of shit. He gave us legends like Gary Macca, Riise (Pleb), Babbel, Hyypia to name a few, he gave us the treble and moments like the Derby win in '01.

 

I can look fondly upon Ged, and as I said, despite the fact I was a massive critic of his. I still love the fella and I was gutted that it went sour in the end.

 

I hope he does well with Villa.

 

In another 5 or so years I might say the same about Benitez ;) Although those wounds are somewhat more fresh. The Jaffa Cake eating.wanke.......

 

 

Trans: as time goes by you become less of a stupid cunt

[dirty_sanchez]

The way Fowler was treated done it for me. He should never have been sold and he was a much better player than Heskey. I think selling Fowler may have been the beginning of his downfall.

 

That's revisionist bollocks Robbie. Selling Fowler when he did is the best piece of transfer business that Liverpool ever did. We sold him for a great price when his form was tailing off and his subsequent career showed that.