Goals, where are they going to come from?

[piscinin]

Has Suarez been our most wasteful player in front of goal?

 

[Code]

Why not compare Kuyt to Kuyt mate?

[chrisbonnie]

Until Suarez gets the service that Rooney does at utd, then I could never blame him

 

Our whole attacking play is non existant. We're the scary wolf to the 3 pigs, we'll huff and puff, but never blow your house down

[piscinin]

Why not compare Kuyt to Kuyt mate?

 

It was cropped out.

 

[Coro]

This is what I've been saying all season, the shots/chances we are having may range in the hundreds but they are shit chances, we don't carve teams apart, we take pot shots and snatched half chances. Whole new midfield bar Lucas is required to fix this.

 

Yeah, the majority have been scruffy chances at best.

 

Cant remember many one on ones with the oppo's keeper this season.

[sybian]

We are shite in the final third of the pitch, to slow build up, not enough players in the area,midfielders not bursting through, woefull crossing, players not anticipating the play, to many backward passes, players who play regulary who should't be wearing the shirt, fucking awful substitutions, fuck me I'm out of breath.

[piscinin]

Yeah, the majority have been scruffy chances at best.

 

Cant remember many one on ones with the oppo's keeper this season.

 

Our best chance of a goal is for Suarez to dribble through the two center halves. And then the full backs who have no-one else to worry about and then the DM who has no runs to track. And we wonder why we can't score. It's luck. Right!

 

Without the benitez straitjacket we've regressed to a set of individuals. There is not a one player who is out there saying to himself. What can I do so that Suarez gets more space in the box. It's all simplistic, I'm going to beat my man and then look up and pass to whoever is there. Playing as a collective has evaporated. They're strangers.

[Gym Beglin]

We lack a central operator with the desire and effort that someone like, say, Parker offers.

He busts a gut to get in areas to help the team, and also busts a gut to get back into position.

 

Adam isn't fit enough to do that effectively, and Jay hasn't got the quality to be a threat in the opposition box, IMHO. Shelvey is the clear winner for this role, even ahead of Gerrard IMHO. IMHO, Gerrard obviously has the quality but he either doesnt have the fitness or he doesn't have the desire to get back and do the dirty work that goes with it.

This is a big difference between this season and the tail end of last season, when Meireles was that player and did it brilliantly.

 

It would have been interesting to see how this team did this season...

 

-----------------Carroll-----------------------

 

Downing----------Gerrard------------------Suarez

 

---------Lucas--------Meireles------------------

 

---------------Back Four-----------------------

 

---------------Baldy chops--------------------

 

 

Sure, it may still have been Carroll and Downing letting us down, but maybe not to the extent it has done.

We could have always swapped Carroll for Bellamy I suppose.

 

We really did need that extra striker, so shocking that we didn't do it, what a whopper of a decision.

[Trumo]

We lack a central operator with the desire and effort that someone like, say, Parker offers.

He busts a gut to get in areas to help the team, and also busts a gut to get back into position.

 

It's not about working hard and busting a gut, it's about working smart. Parker busts a gut to recover position because he's caught out of position so often. Yes, he can help out his defenders by closing down and he can try to press his opponents. Mascherano used to do both for us (and still does for Argentina if not Barcelona) but a key difference between the two is that Mascherano has far more positional savvy, even when he's pressing play higher up the pitch. Too many people in this country wax lyrical about a player who is very obviously giving it 110%, without looking into the reasons why he's having to work so hard.

[Duff Man]

This is what I've been saying all season, the shots/chances we are having may range in the hundreds but they are shit chances, we don't carve teams apart, we take pot shots and snatched half chances. Whole new midfield bar Lucas is required to fix this.

 

Totally agree with that. We need far more than just a goalscorer.

[18-5]

Appoint Rafa and the goals will come.

[Gym Beglin]

It's not about working hard and busting a gut, it's about working smart. Parker busts a gut to recover position because he's caught out of position so often. Yes, he can help out his defenders by closing down and he can try to press his opponents. Mascherano used to do both for us (and still does for Argentina if not Barcelona) but a key difference between the two is that Mascherano has far more positional savvy, even when he's pressing play higher up the pitch. Too many people in this country wax lyrical about a player who is very obviously giving it 110%, without looking into the reasons why he's having to work so hard.

 

I see exactly what you are saying, but there still needs to be some dynamism from a central midfielder. Parker is a headless chicken a lot of the time, agreed, but it gives you momentum.

 

The problem with central midfielders is that they are the puppets and not the puppeteers, the latter is the domain of the centre backs. They dictate how much work the central midfield has to get through, if they drop deep then the central midfield have a massive job to cover most of the pitch in order to shield them and also get forward to help the forward(s).

 

When in possession, centre backs should be on or around the halfway line, and then that allows the midfielders to do all their chasing and attacking in one half of the field. As Rafa noted when commentating on Barca, this is why they are so good at closing teams down, they don't chase all over the pitch at high speed, they only do it in half a pitch, and this is because the forwards work hard and because the defenders hold a high line, and this is allied with Valdes acting as a sweeper to deal with the long balls over the defence. A perfect set-up, and just what Rafa was seeking to do with us, but Carra was not able to play that game on the halfway line, hence the beginning of the end for Rafa.

 

There does need to be more to Adam, he needs to be a better tackler, he needs to time tackles better, he needs to be able to recover and make a challenge when starting off behind a player.

 

Parker IS a cracking midfielder, and although I will listen to criticism of his positional play, I won't be knocking him for the effort and intensity he puts in, because quite frankly it's brilliant and can only drive the team to match that effort.

 

If I had to draw the perfect Premiership midfielder, it used to be Essien. Powerful, quick, clever, brave, lots of stamina, and someone who lurked on the edge of areas and got a few goals.

Now, it's Yaya Toure, without a doubt.

Others worth mentioning are Alex Song, James Milner, Cheik Tiote, and then there's those in the maybe category like Jack Rodwell, and Stuart Holden.

We need to get hold of a midfielder like these, that Tiote is a monster. Again, it was something Rafa tried to do with Sissoko who, prior to the eye injury, was a monster in our midfield. Of course, Mascherano in there as well as Alonso, and Gerrard could do it too, what a midfield he collected.

 

That's the sad thing, we're reinventing the wheel. Rafa had all this sorted, he just needed another go at it. Anyway, that's another story for another time.

[xerxes]

It was good to see Luis back on target yesterday - and for Downing to remind us that he can score, and score good goals.

[Trumo]

Same shit, different day. Kurt pointed out in the QPR match thread on the MF about bad decision making killing our season. I fully agree that bad decision making has been at the heart of the team's problems both in attack and defence this season. Defensively, we seem to get punished for every mistake we make, and at the other end we are catastrophically wasteful in punishing errors by the opposition or capitalising on our approach work. The Sunderland game on the opening day really has set the scene for us, in the league at least.

 

Kurt pointed out a moment in the QPR game where Downing tried to find Suarez with an eye-of-the-needle pass when Gerrard was in space on the right and a much better option. I can recall another moment where Kuyt received the ball centrally just inside the QPR half and had time and space to turn and run. Now granted, he doesn't have the skill or pace to get past the two centre backs, but he had room and the best option in that situation - given that we had no-one bar Suarez ready to threaten at that moment - was to carry it further and have a shot at goal, because the defenders were backing off. Suarez had drifted left to give Kuyt more space and also had to try and remain onside. Kuyt decided to try and pick him out but overhit the pass out of play. Even if he'd played it to feet, Kuyt's lack of pace meant he couldn't have received the ball back with a clear run on goal. Indeed, Suarez would have had to try and play it through the two centre backs - yet more eye-of-the-needle stuff.

 

Another issue I have - and this is something that has been apparent from the Houllier era - is that when we have a throw-in near the opposite penalty area, one of our strikers always moves to receive the ball, and 9 times out of 10 the only option is to play it back to the thrower. The other striker loiters on the edge of the penalty area so our midfield stand deeper still. Our widest midfielder on the opposite side remains at best level with our other midfielders instead of breaking into the space. The best way to explain the set up is to use rugby as an example, where the players stay behind the ball. It allows our opponents to squeeze up at the exact moment we should be penning them back. In the same situation at the other end, every single one of our opponents does the exact opposite.

 

I watch a lot of our games online, and often at half time you usually get a montage of goals from the Premier League. The actions and movements that lead to the vast majority of these goals are extremely straightforward, yet our own approach play and movements don't ever seem to match them. Because of this, we attempt more eye-of-the-needle stuff than is necessary. As I said, this is something systemic from a decade ago, and successive managers haven't cracked it.

 

It's so frustratingly simple to me. You don't need to play it wide all the time and hit Hail Mary's into the box, but if the mindset is to get numbers into the box, then by the laws of probability you increase your chances of getting a break. An average to poor ball in can be made to look like a decent one. At the moment we require a level of precision that is beyond the technical capabilities of all but the world's very best players. However, these players wouldn't look nearly as good if they were reduced to having to be so precise every single time the team attacks.

[stringvest]

If we had fletcher and Doyle instead of Kuyt and carroll, we'd have an extra 15 goals and an extra 10 point IMO.

[KevieG]

If we had fletcher and Doyle instead of Kuyt and carroll, we'd have an extra 15 goals and an extra 10 point IMO.

 

Depressing but thats probably true

[Guest TK-421]

If we had fletcher and Doyle instead of Kuyt and carroll, we'd have an extra 15 goals and an extra 10 point IMO.

 

Carroll has been in and out of the team and has 15 league starts with 3 goals. Doyle has a mere 4 goals from 21 starts in the league, so all Carroll has to do to match him is score one goal in the next 6 league starts. Carroll's and Doyle's stats are very similar, so there's nothing at all to suggest that Doyle would be more prolific over the course of a season.

[Trumo]

I don't think it's as simple as saying if we had this player or that player, he'd have got more goals and we'd be higher up the league etc. In the past decade we've had a lot of forwards who were capable of being prolific. Obviously Owen and Torres were both extremely prolific whilst with us. But players like Morientes - who thrived on chances created and had exceptional movement in the box when he was at both Real Madrid and Monaco - struggled to find space and consistently get goals. It's also not simply down to certain players not suiting our league or struggling with injury, it's a constant regardless of the quality of the personnel.

 

We are like Internazionale (apart from their title winning spell post-Calciopoli and before Mourinho left) in that no matter who we sign and how much money they cost, we spend season after season having not addressed a fundamental issue. One which makes the money spent look like a waste. With Inter the fundamental problem was a lack of a coherent playing and coaching philosophy which saw them chop and change players and coaches at great expense. With us, it's a consistent lack of collective attacking threat in numbers which has caused very good players to look very average, and average ones to look piss-poor.

 

Put Kevin Doyle in the squad and give him the coaching and drilling that all our players have got over more than a decade, and what you'll end up with is a much more ineffective version of the current Kevin Doyle.

[kalasoma]

I think I read that the QPR game yielded 17 corners for us (in contrast to the home team's 7)? With that many corners, that match was made for Carroll. I think I recall Skrtel coming up for a corner and putting it over the bar? Also, I noticed that towards the end, when we were still winning corners, none of either Skrtel or Coates were in the box and were hanging back on the halfway line. I guess at that point we were trying to protect against a fast break or protect our lead. Which didn't work in the end, obviously.

[piscinin]

I think I read that the QPR game yielded 17 corners for us (in contrast to the home team's 7)? With that many corners, that match was made for Carroll.

 

Don't kid yourself. Made for the player we thought carroll was, not the one he actually is. Coates has more goals from corners.

[kalasoma]

But you must think that out of 17 corners, with him hustling in the box trying to get his head to one of them, he'd have connected with at least 3 of them. If he didn't, he would have caused some problems for the defenders at the very least.

[piscinin]

But you must think that out of 17 corners, with him hustling in the box trying to get his head to one of them, he'd have connected with at least 3 of them. If he didn't, he would have caused some problems for the defenders at the very least.

 

Based on recent performances I wouldn't think that. Obviously neither does KK. At the start of the season our corners and set pieces were choreographed for him. Now we don't bother. Says it all.

[kalasoma]

Based on recent performances I wouldn't think that. Obviously neither does KK. At the start of the season our corners and set pieces were choreographed for him. Now we don't bother. Says it all.

 

Well then there's nothing more that can be done. I don't know where the goals are coming from and we're left scratching our heads.

[piscinin]

Well then there's nothing more that can be done. I don't know where the goals are coming from and we're left scratching our heads.

 

Well we could always go back to what was netting us 2 goals a game last year.

[kalasoma]

Well we could always go back to what was netting us 2 goals a game last year.

 

The combination of Maxi, Suarez, Meireles and Kuyt, you mean? Well Meireles isn't here and Maxi can't seem to get a game. So I'm not sure how we would go back to that. Unless of course you mean something entirely different.