Lucas has not improved.

[silverlining]

I'm not one to generally rely on argument from authority, but I have a hard time accepting that the Internet headcases and Roy Hodgson are right, and the likes of Kenny Dalglish, Rafa Benitez and the last two Brazil managers are wrong.

 

Hodgson picked him all the time, and ignored Purslow's "hints" that he should be sold.

 

So another thing the budgie-faced old cunt got wrong.

[zigackly]

I'm not one to generally rely on argument from authority, but I have a hard time accepting that the Internet headcases and Roy Hodgson are right, and the likes of Kenny Dalglish, Rafa Benitez and the last two Brazil managers are wrong.

 

Have any of them said he's anything more than a decent defensive midfielder who represents the best option for their team at the time, to the extent that replacing him is not a priority?

 

If I look at some of the midfielders we have had playing for us, I'm afraid I find it difficult to see him in the top twenty. And that's being generous.

 

By no means, I should stress, am I suggesting that he is shit, or a cunt, or a shitcunt.

[Jairzinho]

Have any of them said he's anything more than a decent defensive midfielder who represents the best option for their team at the time, to the extent that replacing him is not a priority?

 

If I look at some of the midfielders we have had playing for us, I'm afraid I find it difficult to see him in the top twenty. And that's being generous.

 

By no means, I should stress, am I suggesting that he is shit, or a cunt, or a shitcunt.

 

The same applies to our defenders and forwards, and Gerrard aside, the rest of our midfielders.

[silverlining]

Have any of them said he's anything more than a decent defensive midfielder who represents the best option for their team at the time, to the extent that replacing him is not a priority?

 

If I look at some of the midfielders we have had playing for us, I'm afraid I find it difficult to see him in the top twenty. And that's being generous.

 

By no means, I should stress, am I suggesting that he is shit, or a cunt, or a shitcunt.

 

Top 20 in our history?

 

He's not even Top 20 in the league currently. Fuck me.

[zigackly]

The same applies to our defenders and forwards, and Gerrard aside, the rest of our midfielders.

 

I think Suarez might have got a game in most of our teams, but I do take your point. He's still no world beater though, and gets an undue amount of praise for a player who's not much more than average in my opinion. I think the reasons for that are twofold, and one of them would start a fight, but I also think the fact he has improved so much in recent years has exaggerated his worth in many eyes.

[moof]

Top 20 in our history?

 

He's not even Top 20 in the league currently. Fuck me.

 

Go on then, name 20 central midfielders in the PL who are better than Lucas right now.

[zigackly]

He's not even Top 20 in the league currently. Fuck me.

 

I suspect that's going a bit far the other way.

[silverlining]

Here's more than 20 midfielders miles better than Lucas in the Premiership. As you can see, most clubs have at least one. We have three.

 

Gerrard

Adam

Henderson

Feillani

Arteta

Tiote

Cabaye

De Jong

Milner

Toure

Barton

Modric

Parker

Meireles

Ramires

Rodwell

McCarthy

Mulumbu

Petrov

Essien

Wilshere

Cleverley

[Bobby Hundreds]

Here's more than 20 midfielders miles better than Lucas in the Premiership. As you can see, most clubs have at least one. We have three.

 

Gerrard

Adam

Henderson

Feillani

Arteta

Tiote

Cabaye

De Jong

Milner

Toure

Barton

Modric

Parker

Meireles

Ramires

Rodwell

McCarthy

Mulumbu

Petrov

Essien

Wilshere

Cleverley

 

To be honest I would take most of those players. That Tiote looks some player.

[TheResonator]

People deriding him are very harsh in my opinion. He was our player of the season last year, the young player of the year the year before, and this season he has made the most tackles in the premiership so far and I think he finished last year with the most tackles as well, didn't he?

 

Given all that, I don't know where the countless other 'better' players in the league, in his position, are. For those claiming that, exactly how much football do you watch? Cause I know there are players out there like Tiote who look good on highlight reels, but there really aren't any World Class defensive midfielders in the premiership at the moment, in my opinion. I'd bracket Lucas with the likes of Song, Mikel, De Jong, Sandro, and Carrick, all of whom have different strengths and weaknesses but none of whom are clearly head and shoulders above the others.

 

As for the Hamann comparison, it's completely unfair, given that Hamann arrived when he was at his peak and Lucas came as a young player with no experience of the league, thrust into a role he hadn't played before.

 

The other thing that ought to be noted is that Lucas was nowhere near the player he is now when he arrived. However, if you look around the internet at large, it contains a large amount of people who totally refuse to revise any opinion they propagate, such as silverlining, who has built his whole online reputation around continually insulting Lucas' ability.

 

The idea that we can get by without a DM if 'we're on the front foot' is nonsense. Our centre backs are too slow. We need to play a deep back line and if we do that without a dedicated DM, there will be way too much space between the defence and midfield - that's the reality of the situation we are in now. Adam is defensively suspect and Henderson bottles a tackle. Gerrard's positioning and covering is considerably behind Lucas' - not to mention that Gerrard is at his best in attack - so I don't really know why it would make sense for those three to play in tandem. Totally unexceptional midfields would have a field day with those three up against our current 11 without a DM.. We have enough problems as it is with Adam in centre mid, and that's with Lucas in the side who has, I'll point out, made more tackles than any other player so far this season.

 

It isn't like Lucas is amazing or a world beater, but he is a very good, competent defensive midfielder and his work ethic and love for the club are absolutely spot on. His role within the team is nowhere near as problematic as our slow defence or our apparent inability to finish chances, so I don't really understand why he is called into question for a performance in a match in which we did not concede and did not allow the opposition to create any goalscoring opportunities from open play. It just smacks of the agenda of people who are desperate to be proven right.

Edited October 17, 2011 by TheResonator

[Jairzinho]

I think Suarez might have got a game in most of our teams, but I do take your point. He's still no world beater though, and gets an undue amount of praise for a player who's not much more than average in my opinion. I think the reasons for that are twofold, and one of them would start a fight, but I also think the fact he has improved so much in recent years has exaggerated his worth in many eyes.

 

I don't think anyone thinks he's a world beater. Whatever one of them is. People defend him for various reasons. One is the one you've alluded to, he was signed by Senor Heezgone. Another is a reaction to our more retarded cuntish fans, the ones that are fucking made up when he has a poor game, so they can be proved right for a couple of weeks a year. Another, and probably my main reason, is not really understanding why he has, or rather still is, being singled out.

 

We've got lots of stuff wrong with our side, lots of players nowhere near good enough to play for a side that wants to win the title, and yet we still have fans who think Lucas is one of the biggest problems. He's whats getting in the way of dominating football for the next ten years. I just don't get it. Perhaps its because some of the other weak links are players we've just signed.

 

We've got no right winger in the entire squad, a back four not capable of playing with any cohesion outside of our own 18 yard box, none of our midfielders can tackle, and our forwards waste chance after chance in every single game.

 

Lucas gets hammered for not scoring enough goals, for not getting enough assists, for not being fast enough, for not having Xavi's passing range, for not being the greatest tackler ever, for not being as sexy as Alonso (he's isn't, admittedly.) Its seems some people watch the game, notice all of the problems of our entire team and then decide the holding midfielder should sort them out.

 

You're right, he's not as good as Hamann. Who knows, maybe he'll be closer when he's 26, the age Hamann was when we signed him.

[zigackly]

I don't think anyone thinks he's a world beater. Whatever one of them is. People defend him for various reasons. One is the one you've alluded to, he was signed by Senor Heezgone. Another is a reaction to our more retarded cuntish fans, the ones that are fucking made up when he has a poor game, so they can be proved right for a couple of weeks a year. Another, and probably my main reason, is not really understanding why he has, or rather still is, being singled out.

 

All of the above, yes. Including the bits I've snipped.

 

You're right, he's not as good as Hamann. Who knows, maybe he'll be closer when he's 26, the age Hamann was when we signed him.

 

I was more getting at the idea that a good defensive midfielder can't be appreciated than trying to make a direct comparison between the players. That would just be silly.

 

I agree with you that the amount of shit he gets is tiresome but it really does irk me when people claim his poo tastes like ice cream as a reaction to it.

 

The truth lies somewhere in the middle as usual.

 

By the way, being our "best" player in a complete train wreck of a season is hardly an accolade. Neither is making a lot of tackles, as although it's good to make a tackle it's better not to need to by forcing an error with your positioning. I'll leave that in by the way, but it's an example of me getting wound up by a weak defence of a player when I actually don't have any real gripe with him otherwise.

Edited October 17, 2011 by zigackly

[brucespanner]

To be honest I would take most of those players. That Tiote looks some player.

 

The Barcodes have bought very well, Cabaye, Ben Arfa and Ba all look like they could make the step up to CL level, been quite impressed with them when I've seen them.

[TheResonator]

A

By the way, being our "best" player in a complete train wreck of a season is hardly an accolade. Neither is making a lot of tackles, as although it's good to make a tackle it's better not to need to by forcing an error with your positioning. I'll leave that in by the way, but it's an example of me getting wound up by a weak defence of a player when I actually don't have any real gripe with him otherwise.

 

The role of a defensive midfielder is to disrupt play when we are out of possession and to protect our defence when we're under threat, so I don't understand how you can spin the amount of tackles he makes into something inconsequential. If he is making a tackle, he is near a player with the ball, who has received the ball, and we have a chance of winning back possession, so of course it is valid to point to it as an asset.

 

In terms of his being our best player of the season amidst the 'trainwreck', it's not as good as being the best player in a premier league winning season, but it still means he garnered more plaudits from the people who support the team than any other player, doesn't it?

 

Finally, what is 'weak' is your argument that you're in here to redress the balance of people saying 'his poo tastes like ice cream'. Can you show me somewhere that someone has done that, recently? Because this thread came back onto the top of the forum following criticism of his play in a match in which we did not concede a goal or any real chances from open play when he was on the pitch - but in which, nevertheless, he was unexceptional - which caused the usual blerts to pipe up with condemnations of his ability in lost attempts to prove themselves right. Then the people who think he's a good lad who gets on with it, has improved a lot, and is doing well for us come in to support him because we are supporters of the club and you're in here claiming people are heralding him as the second coming. What the fuck?

 

If you don't think he's great then fine, say so, as you're entitled to, but I can't remember anybody on this website claiming he is a world class player, whilst - on the other hand - there are a good few people who are willing to stick the boot into him every chance they get, with little or no reason.

 

He's just a scapegoat to some people. That isn't right.

[moof]

Here's more than 20 midfielders miles better than Lucas in the Premiership. As you can see, most clubs have at least one. We have three.

 

Gerrard

De Jong

Toure

Modric

Parker

Meireles

Wilshere

 

i'll give you those 7

 

The rest he's on par with (or better than) imo.

 

You've been waiting for him to have a poor game for fucking ages so you can prove you were right.

 

You though Henderson was shite last week, now 1 decent sub performance and he's suddenly quality?

 

You crazay man!

[Jairzinho]

i'll give you those 7

 

The rest he's on par with imo.

 

And even out of those seven, only four could play as a holding midfielder.

 

Which is surely all that is actually relevant?

 

Would people prefer Modric was our holding midfielder? Don't get me wrong, he's ace. But as someone to protect the back four?

[WaltonRed]

He shrinks when Gerrard plays with him and he needs to get over it

[moof]

And even out of those seven, only four could play as a holding midfielder.

 

Which is surely all that is actually relevant?

 

True, I can't believe he came out with Mulumbu and fucking Stilian Petrov haha!

 

Utterly mongtastic.

[zigackly]

The role of a defensive midfielder is to disrupt play when we are out of possession and to protect our defence when we're under threat, so I don't understand how you can spin the amount of tackles he makes into something inconsequential. If he is making a tackle, he is near a player with the ball, who has received the ball, and we have a chance of winning back possession, so of course it is valid to point to it as an asset.

 

I'm not saying it's inconsequential, but facile stats like that are hugely misleading. You can run more than anyone else down blind alleys. You can complete every pass you make but your pass selection can still be shit. Similarly the number of tackles you make is not always indicative of success. I'm sure Sissoko used to regularly tackle the same player three times in a row for example. It's a brute force approach to analysis which assumes every rose as sweet. It winds me up no end. I would prefer a defence of him based on what you see in him whilst watching him. His energy and tendency not to hide for instance.

 

In terms of his being our best player of the season amidst the 'trainwreck', it's not as good as being the best player in a premier league winning season, but it still means he garnered more plaudits from the people who support the team than any other player, doesn't it?

 

I remember Danny Murphy being voted player of the season once. Since then I've always taken it with a slight pinch of salt. Reasons why I think Lucas got it last year: improvement, consistency and lack of huge gaffes. For me it's pure insanity for anyone not to realise that our player of the season was actually Suarez by a golden mile.

 

Finally, what is 'weak' is your argument that you're in here to redress the balance of people saying 'his poo tastes like ice cream'. Can you show me somewhere that someone has done that, recently?

 

Perhaps you should accustom yourself to the concept of exaggeration as a literary device. There have been plenty of examples of people overplaying his talents or writing long essays reaching for ways to defend him however, which to me he does not entirely warrant. He's a good lad, he's improving and right now he is worth a place in our first eleven, but that is not to say that he's the type of quality we should be looking for long term. On the other hand, as you rightly point out, there are arguably bigger priorities for reinforcement. Just depends how you view the game though. For some the spine is where you absolutely must get it right.

 

He's just a scapegoat to some people. That isn't right.

 

I completely agree with that, but it's simple to dismiss people using him as a scapegoat because it's clearly quite unjustified. People going to huge lengths to defend him against the slightest criticism get my radar twitching though. He was awful on Saturday, and I'm not saying that because I hate him or as a campaign to oust him from the team, but because it's true. I expect the international break played a big part in that.

[Jairzinho]

True, I can't believe he came out with Mulumbu and fucking Stilian Petrov haha!

 

Utterly mongtastic.

 

I actually don't even know who Mulumbu is. I'm sure he's excellent though. I thought Petrov had retired.

 

But my real hope is that we sign Joey Barton in January.

[moof]

I actually don't even know who Mulumbu is. I'm sure he's excellent though. I thought Petrov had retired.

 

But my real hope is that we sign Joey Barton in January.

 

A man can dream. *sigh*

[silverlining]

i'll give you those 7

 

The rest he's on par with (or better than) imo.

 

You've been waiting for him to have a poor game for fucking ages so you can prove you were right.

 

You though Henderson was shite last week, now 1 decent sub performance and he's suddenly quality?

 

You crazay man!

 

I said Henderson had been largely shite in the games he's played so far and didn't deserve to be starting out wide or just behind Suarez, when we had Kuyt and Bellamy to play there more effectively.

 

Which is correct.

 

I also said that we should use him as Adam's "legs" in a central position and see how he fares there, in acentral midfield of him, Adam and Gerrard. I said this several times, before the game on Saturday, because it's our best midfield.

 

Which is also correct.

[moof]

You've been calling him Horrenderson since the fucking Stoke game.

[TheResonator]

I'm not saying it's inconsequential, but facile stats like that are hugely misleading. You can run more than anyone else down blind alleys. You can complete every pass you make but your pass selection can still be shit. Similarly the number of tackles you make is not always indicative of success. I'm sure Sissoko used to regularly tackle the same player three times in a row for example. It's a brute force approach to analysis which assumes every rose as sweet. It winds me up no end. I would prefer a defence of him based on what you see in him whilst watching him. His energy and tendency not to hide for instance.

 

I think that that is true of some statistics, but your example of Sissoko is poor. Statistics paint an incomplete picture, but when your job is to disturb opposition players then the amount of duels you are involved in is indicative of how close you are to players who are in possession on the other team, and how often you are disrupting them.

 

I could make all the arguments on the world based on what I see, but they would be largely wasted on people who simply see the game in a different way.

 

I remember Danny Murphy being voted player of the season once. Since then I've always taken it with a slight pinch of salt. Reasons why I think Lucas got it last year: improvement, consistency and lack of huge gaffes. For me it's pure insanity for anyone not to realise that our player of the season was actually Suarez by a golden mile.

 

Suarez was the most influential player by a country mile, but he only played for about 3 & 1/2 months. I think that in respect of that it was fair that it went to Lucas. Suarez will get it this year, unless Gerrard plays the rest of the season at the level he did in years past.

 

Perhaps you should accustom yourself to the concept of exaggeration as a literary device. There have been plenty of examples of people overplaying his talents or writing long essays reaching for ways to defend him however, which to me he does not entirely warrant. He's a good lad, he's improving and right now he is worth a place in our first eleven, but that is not to say that he's the type of quality we should be looking for long term. On the other hand, as you rightly point out, there are arguably bigger priorities for reinforcement. Just depends how you view the game though. For some the spine is where you absolutely must get it right.

 

I'm well aware of exaggeration as a literary device. It's not the first time I've seen you claiming to redress the balance. You do not do that, you principally just add more weight to the negative arguments and justify it by saying people are eulogising him. You seldom argue against anybody who is insulting his ability. Again, it's bollocks to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle. You might find essays excusing his slightest of errors on RAWK, but not here, so why are you posting about it here?

 

I completely agree with that, but it's simple to dismiss people using him as a scapegoat because it's clearly quite unjustified. People going to huge lengths to defend him against the slightest criticism get my radar twitching though. He was awful on Saturday, and I'm not saying that because I hate him or as a campaign to oust him from the team, but because it's true. I expect the international break played a big part in that.

 

I don't think he was awful but he wasn't great. I'm sure you're right the break played a part in it, but his critics haven't tempered their criticism with that in mind, have they? It's fair enough to say he's had a poor game, but people come in here and talk about how he's not good enough for a top 4 club, he's holding us back, he's shit... etc., etc., when his contribution on Saturday was fairly innocuous and would be unworthy of comment from pretty much any other player. He plays a blinder like he did against Chelsea last season or the Mancs, and it's either glossed over or 'it has to become a more regular thing'... it is nowhere near a balanced portrayal of his worth as a player,

[silverlining]

You've been calling him Horrenderson since the fucking Stoke game.

 

And also saying he should be playing in the middle, or not at all.

 

I mean, he's been horrendously disappointing without a doubt, but then so has Downing. So has Carroll.

 

Our two best signings have been at the lower-priced end: Adam and Enrique. Both have had decent starts to their Anfield careers, although Adam was taking a lot of shit before the Man Utd game, but that was largely because a CM Partnership of him and Lucas is one of the worst in the league.