Time for change.

[Guest Peter_Evo]

Time for change.

 

Yesterday’s at best pathetic, at worst apathetic, performance has now swayed those, including me, who were either pro-Houllier or teetering on the brink. Before yesterday there was a definite divide, maybe 50-50, but yesterday confirmed that we do indeed need a change. There is no way on earth now we are going to make even the bad enough fourth place. The time for change should, in my opinion, be made immediately. If it is not then Houllier will spend, when the transfer window opens in January, what I believe to be a very limited budget on the sort of second rate players, mainly foreigners, we already have at the club who whilst doing their best (I think) are clearly not good enough for the standards required of this Football Club. Changing the Manager now would mean that the new incumbent could buy the players HE wants, get rid of the players HE doesn’t want and weed out the deadwood. There is plenty of that at the club at the moment.

 

Houllier is so stubborn that even if he does stay after January he will probably not spend the money, preferring to believe in his own deluded mind that everything is okay, with the idea of saving it to strengthen the team in the summer. That would be disastrous thinking on his part because when we finish in around about eight place, which is a slightly higher position than our performances have merited this season so far, then surely Mr. Moores, like most of the fans, will cry enough at the end of the season anyway. That, by then, will be too late as the jewels in our wobbly crown, Owen and Gerrard, may well have decided also that enough is enough and get off to roam far greater, more successful, pastures. I have never thought that until now, preferring to believe that nobody of the stature of those two players will leave our club until I see them with another club’s shirt on, but am now genuinely fearful that we might indeed be watching these two great players last season at Liverpool Football Club.

 

Who is to blame – the players or the Manager? A bit of both I think. Certainly players who we know can do it and do so on a regular basis for their countries have vastly under-performed while wearing the Liverbird on their chest. It doesn’t help though when up to half-a-dozen of those players per game are played out of position. Prime example: Heskey left-wing, Smicer lone striker at Newcastle last week. That decision alone finally convinced me that the man had lost his marbles.

 

Houllier clearly no longer has the capabilities to get the players in his charge to perform. His tactical naivete and stubbornness are clear for all to see. Can anybody tell me how a tactical plan that involves two centre-halves (I know one of them is a donkey but it’s not his fault the Manager picks him there) and a holding player in front sees the said holding player left as the last man when the opposition break away from our corner and score? Let’s get someone in now and breathe a bit of life back into the club as Gerard himself did when he took sole charge.

 

I am genuinely concerned that should Ged stay, and let’s not forget, whatever we think of him as a Manager, he is a good man, it will be injurious to his health. The man just does not look well at all. I would hate for the decision to be taken out of his hands by the sort of life-threatening illness he suffered a couple of years ago. At worst, obviously, all this could kill him. Let’s hope a decision is taken by either him or the Board that will ensure anything like that doesn’t happen.

 

Who do we replace Ged with? Nobody has the perfect answer but I certainly hope that it isn’t, but feel it probably will be, Phil Thompson. I know Phil loves the club as much as any fan but if we think Houllier is negative then Thommo is worse. Remember the latter half of his tenure as temporary Manager during Ged’s illness? I do! We were boring to the brink of narcolepsy. People were slagging him off and calling for his head during a 1-1 draw at Highbury.

 

We have four players at the club that Ged could have built a team around but has summarily failed to do so; Owen, Gerrard, Kewell and Kirkland. Somebody else must be given the chance, indeed will probably be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect, to do that.

 

Let’s not cry injuries either. All clubs have injuries; some just manage to overcome them, probably because they have top-class replacements, better than others. Moaning about injuries is not the Liverpool way, but clearly lots of things are not being done the Liverpool way at the moment, so let’s just get on with it. Let’s be honest too – do we think that yesterday’s performance would have been any better if Owen and Kewell had been playing? I certainly don’t! There just seems to be a general malaise now in the club that even fielding our strongest team in every match would probably not yield an improvement.

 

Please don’t hit me with charges of treachery or faithlessness. I love Liverpool Football Club with a will and a passion. It is THE major thing in my life. Being honest and telling it how I feel it is cannot, I feel, be called treachery or faithlessness under any circumstances. I have supported Houllier with a blind faith while he has been under fire for the past twelve months. The Evo eyes have now opened to how it really is. No longer can I use my usual line of, “Oh, two or three wins strung together will see an entirely different picture and everything and everybody will be happy again” because I just can’t see us doing anything like that at the moment. I have to be honest and admit that, at the moment, we, at best, are just another mediocre, mid-table team who might snatch the odd win now and again. It’s not good enough for LFC and I hold the Manager to be the one individual most to blame for this current state.

 

It breaks my heart to write this piece as I want to remember Ged for the good times not the stultifying crap we’ve had to put up with for the past twelve months and more. Sometimes though a spade has to be called a spade. It would be best for all concerned with this Football Club we love so much should Ged do the decent thing and make a dignified exit now before the inevitable ignominy of dismissal.

 

Peter Evo.

[Rashid]

I'd kill myself if we got Thommo in as manager. I prefer Houllier to him.

[dave u]

Welcome aboard Evo :thumbup:

 

I'm just finishing off my match report, and it reads a lot like the above.

 

There's nothing treacherous about it mate. Slagging off the manager doesn't make you any less of a fan, despite what some would say. Nobody would question your loyalty and devotion to LFC, and for you to make a statement such as you just have will make a lot of people sit up and take notice.

 

I've taken a bit of stick on other forums for my stance on Houllier, and poor old John B has been hammered for his views on the boss.

 

Think we're in the majority now though.

 

If there's anyone reading this who thinks he is still the man for the job then please post a reply and tell us why.

 

Evo says he felt the split was 50/50 before yesterday. I disagree, I'd have said it was 70/30 in favour of those who want him out. After yesterday, you're probably looking at 90/10 at least.

[Cunny]

sums up my feelings exactly Evo

before yesterday I was teetering on the brink concerning GH but now he has to go.

yesterday was a defining point for many fans

he has now lost the majority of fans and by the looks of it the players.

 

yesterday was as bad as anything I've seen

[Big Noel]

Wouldn't disagree with any of the above.

 

In a way, I felt sorry for Souness and Evans because many of their players didn't give a shit and would happily pick up their £20k a week in exchange for zero effort and zero pride in the shirt.

 

The worrying thing at the moment is that the players (H***** apart) seem to be giving it everything, but are clearly lacking guidance and have run out of ideas.

 

If GH does go now, the summer of 2002 will be seen as the turning point. Giving away world class talent and good local prospects in exchange for second rate squad players was a monumental mistake. And this isn't just in hindsight- we all said it at the time. Has he made a good decision since?

[Cunny]

Liverpool have now won just 15 of 41 Premiership matches since they topped the table last November, 13 months which have seen Houllier’s future questioned.

 

is this still a blip?

is it still a period of plateau?

is it all down to injuries and bad luck?

 

is it bollocks!

[Rashid]

I'm still scared that Thommo might take over. Jesus Christ I am petrified.

 

The man that said Murphy is as good as Beckham and Heskey the new Ronaldo!

 

Oh God No.

[Anubis]

Agree a change is now needed, but should it be sooner than the summer? It may be difficult to prise someone away from their club mid-season. I have to say I couldn't see Thompson in charge, but then I can't see O'Neil either.

 

I was in the camp that thought GH should be given this season to prove us wrong, but the last two games have convinced me that it is time for a change. I understand the injuries, but in neither game have we made the best use of the players available - and things obvious to the fans seem to have escaped Houllier.

[Guest Red Hell]

Well I think we are all in agreement that a change is of the utmost importance and the sooner the better.

 

But unfortunately the decision lies with the board and can anyone honestly believe they will ask GH to move upstairs before the end of the season?

[johnb]

I have taken stick on this and other Forums, but it's incidental really compared to the big picture of Liverpool. I don't give a shit about me - I care about Liverpool.

 

It was understandable that after the great days we had under GH, people would want to remain loyal.

 

The breaking-point came at different times for us all - I began having doubts around the pre-Christmas derby last year; these were strengthened by Palace and then Celtic was the final straw.

 

Add to the terrible football and failure in results the fact that he tried to fob it off with some devious manipulation of facts meant that I've not been willing to cut him any slack for close on nine months - as my posts have shown.

 

As we still had a slim chance of Champions League football in the run-in, there was no real value in getting rid. But when we came fifth, that should definitely have spelt the end.

 

But thanks to the board's intransigence - now a decade-old, we stuck with him and the consequences are now showing.

 

Loyalty is well and good - but it's loyalty to the Club - not an individual. Those Apologista who've refused to budge (and there are still some out there!) may now see that we were not shit-stirring or criticising for the sake of it, but doing so because the Club we all love was obviously only going one way under Gérard.

 

I'll always say we owe him a great amount, but we don't owe him a job. He's had his chance and it must now be over.

[Hermes]

If Thompson was appointed manager then all of you without a ticket can apply for mine. I would not return until he left. It's bad enough having him on the line.

 

If you think a new manager would instigate a clear-out you are deluding yourselves. They are all on fat salaries that a potential buyer would not be prepared to match, they won't take a pay cut either.

[Redexile]

I said at the time of RE's sacking that as the other half GH should also have gone, I also said I didn,t feel he was the right man to bring back the glory days. I took a lotta stick during the treble year and I hoped the man would prove me right.

I have been a red for over 40 years and before leaving the UK in the early 80's spent many happy times on the Kop watching my team play with pride and passion. Yesterdays display (which I had the misfortune to watch live) was an insult to all my memories and all the former players who knew what it meant to wear the liver bird on their chest. ( gerrard/semmy/sammy and kirkland apart)

This morning I woke up having dream that foullier had resigned only to tune into Sky and find it was just a dream. Not only that but he thought we were unlucky!!!!I'll have some of whatever he's taking to see me thru Christmas for fucks sake

:( It's time for Moores to do the righ thing, thank GH for all he has done and thenfind the right man for the job.

 

BTW all those slagging off O'neil I have watched Celtic in the champions league regularly this year (partly because Celtic park's atmosphere reminds me of Anfield in the 70's and 80's)For a bloke managing a team with players in some positions who are clearly donkeys he has done well, remember they outplayed us at Anfield last season too. I couldn't see him putting up with :baa:

[Hermes]

"For a bloke managing a team with players in some positions who are clearly donkeys he has done well".

 

He bought them didn't he? Celtic were outclassed by us in Glasgow, that seems to have been forgotten. They may be in the Champions League every season but I'll give him credit when they progress beyond the group stage. Anything less than that achieved with Celtic counts for nothing, it's a Mickey Mouse league.

[johnb]

Originally posted by Hermes

it's a Mickey Mouse league.

 

As opposed to the Premiership.

 

Two-horse race in Scotland - has it not been the same in England for years?

[Hermes]

2002/03

 

1st Celtic 97 points

2nd Rangers 97 points

3rd Hearts 63 points

 

 

2003/04 so far

 

Celtic 46 points

Rangers 38 points

Hearts 29 points

 

As I said, a Mickey Mouse league with 4 meaningful league games a season. Bolton beating Chelsea away? Show me a similar league result in Scotland. Apart from Rangers and Celtic the rest are 3rd Division standard. The results in Europe prove it season after season. Who was the last Scottish team apart from Celtic/Rangersto progress passed 3 rounds of the UEFA Cup.

[johnb]

Never mentioned Chelsea.

 

United and Arsenal are as far ahead of Liverpool as Rangers and Celtic are ahead of Hearts or whoever.

 

What will it take for people to realise that we are scarcely better than a mid-table team Dave?

 

That's why I said in August I thought we'd finish 7th or 8th.

 

We're really really really woeful.

[Truered]

We all care passionality for are team, that same passion is not there in the mangement team.

 

They use an excuse culture pure and simple.:(

[Uncle Travelling Matt]

Come on lads, I think we are taking the negativity too far here, the table is not lying, we are in the middle, but do any of you really believe that our first 11 and our squad should be mid table? I have been a Houllier supporter, I have backed him so far but am now starting to turn, I agree with SM about the last two games "in neither game have we made the best use of the players available". But to suggest we are the 8th or 9th best team in the league is bollox, we are in the top 4, and if we don't finish there and if he hasn't gone already then Ged will go. How can you complain about us finishing mid table if you believe we have a mid table squad. We are under achieving because we are 9th but we are much better than that.

 

Everyone also seems to be forgetting that before the last 3 or 4 games, we had actually been playing some good football this season, personally I think Houllier's lack of confidence in the players who come in show in the tactics we play with. The game at Newcastle was there to be taken last week, Newcastle were poor but we sat back and let them make us look worse......I wasn't at the game yesterday so can't really comment but from the lads I've spoke to who were there, they say it was the worst for years.....thats pretty f#ckin bad, using the injured players as an excuse doesn't wash because the negative tactics are why we are performing as bad as we are.

 

The Celtic comparison for Martin O'Neil is sh*te too, you really think Heskey wouldn't get a game under O'Neil? He plays Hartson every week and was Heskey's mentor before his move to us. O'Neil would be a bad move. If the board decide on a change, it will be a total change, Thomo will go too. For me, there is only one man who could come in with the right passion, experience and love for our club to get things right..........and I'd walk a million miles for one of his goals!

[fagus]

i think its neither realistic nor desireable for kenny to come back,lets look foward not back,perhaps its time to go for an manager with potential even if it meant some players pissing of,lets build a new dynasty,it may take time and it may be painful but i think we need to except we are just another side at the moment

[dave u]

I'd rather stick with Houllier than bring back Dalglish.

 

Never look back. Look at the blues with Kendall. Would you really want to see Kenny's reputation tarnished?

[chorlton]

if GH did go, and most of think he will unless he turns things around very sharply.

 

How about Strachen, yeah he's an ex manc, and no this is'nt because he beat us yesterday.

 

I like him because he seems to sign well for the money he has, did well with Keane and had coventry playing some good stuff before they went into a tailspin, and villa nicking they're players, having to sell keane didnt help. For the money he had i thought he did really well. He seems to know when to change the style to get a result and has done a good job at southampton. He also seems to buy well.

 

Other then that i can't think of anyone who we might get. Its just a random thought because we cannot dismis a manager without having a replacement ready.

[Pawlu]

Spot on Evo.

 

I was thinking how much like Tottenham in the Eighties we have become. At the time they had quality players like Gary Lineker, Paul Gascoigne and Chris Waddle with the fans thinking they were still a great team but in the end they never managed to rise above mid-table.

 

I think Tommy Smith said the right things this weekend when he pointed out that we have some very good players but the rest are average at best.

 

Igor Biscan, E**** H*****, El Hadj, Vladimir Smicer are the kind of players you would expect to see at the likes of Blackburn whilst Danny Murphy and even JAR are good squad players. That Salif Diao can't even get into the team says it all about his quality.

 

Like Evo, before Saturday I was still reluctant to say that Houllier should go now. My view was that he should be given till the end of the season and that changing mid-way through the season would only harm the team. However, looking at what Eddie Gray is doing at Leeds and what has happened at Inter perhaps it wouldn't be too bad to change now.

 

As for finding a suitable replacement and how difficult that would be, Liverpool is still one of the few big teams around in world football and I'm sure that there are plenty of coaches who would be more than eager to take over. I really can't understand those who say that it would be difficult to find the right man. Looking at the Premier league, Alan Curbishley has proven to be an excellent manager whilst abroad there are the likes of Ronald Koeman.

[Redexile]

I'm not saying O'neill would be the man to lead us forward but he's done well at clubs where he hasn't had the resources that GH has had. Hermes he may have bought some of those donkeys but he's bought on limited funds, next time they play check the work rate.Like Strachan's team they all work for each other can you say the same about some of the buys we've made??

I see today his arrogance is shining through again with his comments that those at the ground on Saturday understand what he's doing whilst those on the phone in's don't. So those boo's were from the Southampton fans who were pissed off that they broke there streak of not scoring away since September???

[Guest Phil C]

"I have taken stick on this and other Forums, but it's incidental really compared to the big picture of Liverpool. I don't give a shit about me - I care about Liverpool."

 

one word John .

 

"ego" :smile:

 

I can only speak for myself as a fence sitter but the reason I remeber you getting stick at the time was unlike what Evo has written "in it killing him to say it " you gave the impression you where enjoying it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :whatever:

 

could have been my ignorance who knows ?

 

hope your keeping well , haven't been on the net for a while and miss reading your posts , always interesting :sick:

take care

culchie :smile:

[johnb]

Originally posted by Phil C

I can only speak for myself as a fence sitter but the reason I remeber you getting stick at the time was unlike what Evo has written "in it killing him to say it " you gave the impression you where enjoying it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :whatever:

 

Yeah, I've really enjoyed seeing us being defeated and things going so bad cos I've only spent the 3,000 euros doing 25 flights to see us this season. :whatever:

 

But hey, who cares, as long as my "ego" is satisifed by GH failing? :whatever:

 

Some day I'll be a superfan like most of you on here. I can't wait. :thumbup: