Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Numero Veinticinco]

11 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Some phrases missing from the various criticisms of Corbyn. 

 

"I've read Hobson's book..."

"When I read Corbyn's foreword..."

"Like most commentators, I've always condemned the anti-Semitism in this book.."

"I spoke to Jeremy in 2011, to say I was disappointed in his foreword..."

 

It's just another bullshit round of noise-making because there's an election today. I was actually unsure of who to vote for in my ward, but these desperate pricks have convinced me to vote Labour. 

Have you read the book? 

[RobbieOR]

Look at O'Brien's tweet yesterday about not voting labour. That's why he's a cunt. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, RobbieOR said:

Look at O'Brien's tweet yesterday about not voting labour. That's why he's a cunt. 

I didn't see it, what did it say? If it was just about not voting Labour then... I'm not sure why that makes somebody a cunt? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

12 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Have you read the book? 

Of course not. Nobody except hard-core, full-time policy nerds has read it.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

Of course not. 

Well, it works both ways doesn't it. I'd say that if you're going to defend him by saying it's all noise, then criticise those who are throwing shit for not having read it, then you should be held to that same standard. I skimmed it, but I'm not reading the entire thing because I'm not interested in it. However, the bits I've seen are worthy of mention in a 2011 foreword. That's a fair criticism of Corbyn, in my view. However, it's unfair to hold him to every word of a book just because he wrote the foreword. It certainly doesn't make him a raving antisemite. 

[Rico1304]

1 hour ago, RobbieOR said:

Well there is a fairly good chance people won't be still using foodbanks if he does instead of fighting a battle that is never going to be won.

Jesus Christ.  That’s unbelievable.  

[Strontium]

17 minutes ago, RobbieOR said:

Look at O'Brien's tweet yesterday about not voting labour. That's why he's a cunt. 

 

He's a Remainer, not sure why you would expect him to vote for a Brexit party.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

He's a Remainer, not sure why you would expect him to vote for a Brexit party.

Probably because that party is the only party that offers any chance - ANY chance - of remaining. Probably. 

[Strontium]

Needless to say, I don't agree. Especially if the rumours are to be believed, and Labour and the Tories are close to agreeing a joint Brexit policy.

[RobbieOR]

13 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

He's a Remainer, not sure why you would expect him to vote for a Brexit party.

 

That isn't why. He said he couldn't look a Jewish person in the eye voting for Labour. By defecting away from Labour he's still shitting on people on the poverty line, nurses, midwifes, immigrants who have been failed by the current Tory government. 

[Captain Turdseye]

He works for the same radio station that employs Nigel Farage, the bad meff. 

[Strontium]

17 minutes ago, RobbieOR said:

 

That isn't why. He said he couldn't look a Jewish person in the eye voting for Labour. By defecting away from Labour he's still shitting on people on the poverty line, nurses, midwifes, immigrants who have been failed by the current Tory government. 

 

His exact words were: "...right now, if I voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, I wouldn't be able to look a Jew, an EU citizen, anyone set to be hurt by Brexit or myself in the eye again."

 

It's patently clear that his biggest issue is Labour's duplicity over Brexit, and invoking scares about poverty and the NHS is not going to wash with people like him (or me).

[AngryOfTuebrook]

41 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, it works both ways doesn't it. I'd say that if you're going to defend him by saying it's all noise, then criticise those who are throwing shit for not having read it, then you should be held to that same standard. I skimmed it, but I'm not reading the entire thing because I'm not interested in it. However, the bits I've seen are worthy of mention in a 2011 foreword. That's a fair criticism of Corbyn, in my view. However, it's unfair to hold him to every word of a book just because he wrote the foreword. It certainly doesn't make him a raving antisemite. 

I'm criticising those who say "This is an anti-Semitic book" without having read it - despite the fact that (prior to this week) the critical consensus (even among people who would go on to be Corbyn critics) seems to be that it's a progressive book. 

 

I don't need to read it to do that.  I'm making no claims about the book one way or another.  I'm looking for those who now - and only now! - claim that it's anti-Semitic to provide better evidence than a few bad sentences on page 64.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

29 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

Needless to say, I don't agree. Especially if the rumours are to be believed, and Labour and the Tories are close to agreeing a joint Brexit policy.

Quite.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'm criticising those who say "This is an anti-Semitic book" without having read it - despite the fact that (prior to this week) the critical consensus (even among people who would go on to be Corbyn critics) seems to be that it's a progressive book. 

 

I don't need to read it to do that.  I'm making no claims about the book one way or another.  I'm looking for those who now - and only now! - claim that it's anti-Semitic to provide better evidence than a few bad sentences on page 64.

Well, you claimed it was bullshit round of noise making . To do that... well, you already know. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

His exact words were: "...right now, if I voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, I wouldn't be able to look a Jew, an EU citizen, anyone set to be hurt by Brexit or myself in the eye again."

 

It's patently clear that his biggest issue is Labour's duplicity over Brexit, and invoking scares about poverty and the NHS is not going to wash with people like him (or me).

Scare stories about poverty and the NHS????

 

Pull your fucking head out of your arse, for one minute.  There's a real world out there and your Tory chums are running it into the fucking ground.

 

People are dying as a direct result of the economic choices of this bastard Government and only a Labour Government can stop that.

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Quite.

 

It's Labour themselves who have suggested that a deal is close.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, you claimed it was bullshit round of noise making . To do that... well, you already know. 

To do that... I need to recognise a pattern of bullshit noise-making, every time it looks like Labour might be gaining some ground.

 

If it looks and smells like bullshit and it's delivered by a bull walking away saying "I'd leave it 10 minutes if I were you" then you don't need to be a genius to recognise what it is.

 

When people come out with rehashed versions of the same tired nonsense, a reasonable response is to require them to provide evidence.  I've no need to waste my time trying to disprove their rubbish.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and time and again the liars have failed to provide it.  This time looks no different.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

To do that... I need to recognise a pattern of bullshit noise-making, every time it looks like Labour might be gaining some ground.

 

If it looks and smells like bullshit and it's delivered by a bull walking away saying "I'd leave it 10 minutes if I were you" then you don't need to be a genius to recognise what it is.

 

When people come out with rehashed versions of the same tired nonsense, a reasonable response is to require them to provide evidence.  I've no need to waste my time trying to disprove their rubbish.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and time and again the liars have failed to provide it.  This time looks no different.

You’re being obtuse. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

It's Labour themselves who have suggested that a deal is close.

The question is, on whose terms?

 

Make no mistake, if Labour come out of there having welched on the Party policy on a customs union, rights for EU citizens, workers' rights, etc. then I'll do a full 180 and probably go full FBPE or something.  If they come out with something in line with the policy set by Conference, then I'd argue with anyone who tries to portray that as in some way collaborating with the Tories.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

You’re being obtuse. 

And you're acutie.

 

I'm really not being obtuse.  I'm just disagreeing with you.  I've never claimed that the book is either anti-Semitic or not anti-Semitic.  I'm saying that the people who make claims about the book (claims which don't appear to have been made, at least not widely, in the 117 years since the book was published) are the ones who need to justify their claims.  

 

To summarise:

I'm not making claims about a book; I don't need to read it.

Other people are making claims about a book; they do need to read it.

 

What's obtuse about that?

[Strontium]

One person's compromise is another person's collaboration.

 

All I will say is that if my party was doing a Brexit deal with the Tories, they wouldn't be my party for much longer.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

As a slight aside to this issue of Hobson, I've been reading David Aaronovitch's Voodoo Histories book, and the first chapter is about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's a really interesting insight into not only how anti-semitic tropes were prevalent at the time - and spread across the political spectrum - but how fabrications can become solidified when disseminated by the right people.

[RobbieOR]

31 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

His exact words were: "...right now, if I voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, I wouldn't be able to look a Jew, an EU citizen, anyone set to be hurt by Brexit or myself in the eye again."

 

It's patently clear that his biggest issue is Labour's duplicity over Brexit, and invoking scares about poverty and the NHS is not going to wash with people like him (or me).

 

As I said, it's a self centred view and a fuck you to the rest of society if you fall for that shit.  

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

And you're acutie.

 

I'm really not being obtuse.  I'm just disagreeing with you.  I've never claimed that the book is either anti-Semitic or not anti-Semitic.  I'm saying that the people who make claims about the book (claims which don't appear to have been made, at least not widely, in the 117 years since the book was published) are the ones who need to justify their claims.  

 

To summarise:

I'm not making claims about a book; I don't need to read it.

Other people are making claims about a book; they do need to read it.

 

What's obtuse about that?

You claimed it was bullshit. You're guilty of pre-judging with an agenda just the same as they are. You're being a hypocrite. 

 

Whatever. I'm actually bored to my balls with this. The sooner Corbyn is fucked off the better. Hopefully the entire LibDem and Tory party can follow him down a hole, too. One big enough for Labour and TiG to fall down into, then all the rest of us can jump into the fiery inferno along with them and finally be done with this entire charade. It's so fucking tedious.