World War II

[M_B]

About Hitlers decision not to attack Dunkirk - We'll never know for sure why he decided not to, but its far too simplistic to call it military incompetence.

 

It was most likely a combination of factors;

 

- He had been assured by Goering that the Luftwaffe would bomb them to submission and would prevent a withdrawal by sea.

- He didn't want his tanks involved either because he wanted to preserve them or because he was listening to his generals and was impressed by Blitzkrieg or both.

- He may have wanted to use it as a bargaining chip to bring the UK to the negotiation table.

 

Whatever his reasons, he didn't think the BEF would be able to withdraw and whilst some may call the decision incompetence, he did manage to knock the French out of the war and cause the British to retreat gloriously to safety.

[s(k)aturation]

.....and I believe it was J.P. Morgan who bailed out a bankrupt Nazi Party in 1933, or there abouts.

 

I believe you may be right.  

The US used Germany... as right wing and apple pie (or strudel) as they were... as a way of setting up a much more lucrative and "counter-ideological" enemy in the Soviet Union.

J.P. et al were securing 50 years of very tidy profit well in advance.

[magicrat]

I believe you may be right.  

The US used Germany... as right wing and apple pie (or strudel) as they were... as a way of setting up a much more lucrative and "counter-ideological" enemy in the Soviet Union.

J.P. et al were securing 50 years of very tidy profit well in advance.

 

Plenty of instances "creating monsters " through history that we have subsequently gone to war with

Sadam Hussain isnt a bad example

[s(k)aturation]

Plenty of instances "creating monsters " through history that we have subsequently gone to war with

Sadam Hussain isnt a bad example

 

Bin Laden was the CIA's star pupil, once upon time, when he was falling out of Beirut bars.

[SasaS]

One question for you WWII buffs, I could never understand why was Britain so terribly unprepared for the war? It must have been obvious that Germans were up to something, if not sooner, than definitely from 1936 and the Spanish Civil War on. Japan invaded China in 1937. Yet, five years later, Britain was seemingly caught off guard.

[M_B]

The short answer is because Britain didn't want to go to war. Nobody did except Hitler.

 

A longer answer involves a number of things

 

- Before '36 it wasn't obvious that Hitler had serious expansionist intentions. It only became obvious with the annexation of Czechoslovakia.

 

- Most thought he and the Nazi's were a reaction to German economic collapse and Communism and indeed many in the Western world supported him in that end. Communism (or rather the mass slaughter that accompanied it in Russia) was the greatest fear in the 20's and 30's - not fascism. Many perceived his enlargement of German forces as a defensive move rather than with a view for expansion.

 

- Britain had the largest navy in the world and thought itself safe from Germany. If war happened, the Navy would give them time to prepare.

 

 

When looking back on those events we do so without really understanding the conditions at the time. To us it seems obvious, but at the time it was less clear. Hitler gained power because he was a champion against Communism and promised national recovery. For many that was appealing, but few understood the real aims he harbored and the lengths he would go to.

 

 

PS - If you are interested in this and like PC games, then get yourself 'Hearts of Iron 4' when it is released.

 

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/hearts-of-iron-iv.844/

[s(k)aturation]

Indeed.

It is always worth remembering that Germany's economic collapse came about because of the crippling terms of the 1919 Armistice, where the "winners" basically gave Germany the bill for World War One and forbad it to ever re-arm again.  

So, that's a repayment they would still be making today AND no more ability to wage war, which as we all have now come to know is one of the most effective forms of employment and profit.

 

Hitler said bollocks to that, and needless to say that was appealing to drunk, emasculated Germans who were needing to cart a suitcase of cash around to merely buy a bread roll. 

 

I read an interesting comment in a history text once, opining that if Hitler had died by around 1938 he may well have gone down as the greatest statesman in German history.

[magicrat]

Indeed.

It is always worth remembering that Germany's economic collapse came about because of the crippling terms of the 1919 Armistice, where the "winners" basically gave Germany the bill for World War One and forbad it to ever re-arm again.  

So, that's a repayment they would still be making today AND no more ability to wage war, which as we all have now come to know is one of the most effective forms of employment and profit.

 

Hitler said bollocks to that, and needless to say that was appealing to drunk, emasculated Germans who were needing to cart a suitcase of cash around to merely buy a bread roll. 

 

I read an interesting comment in a history text once, opining that if Hitler had died by around 1938 he may well have gone down as the greatest statesman in German history.

 

Didn't think they had "Pret a Manger" back then

[s(k)aturation]

Didn't think they had "Pret a Manger" back then

 

Yes, and the suitcases of money were what inspired the original term, "Pret a Porter".

[Frank Dacey]

Reparations were due to be paid off in 66 years so they wouldn't still be paying them off now. The Germans were given American loans to help boost their economy in 1924 and more time to pay reparations and in 1929 the amount of reparations was cut drastically.

I'm not sure that the British weren't ready by 1940. The British and French together had more men, tanks and planes than the Germans, they just didn't use them as well.

[Lee909]

Didnt help that the French army had shitty morale and were crying the British were making them fight

[magicrat]

Yes, and the suitcases of money were what inspired the original term, "Pret a Porter".

 

Hyperinflation, can't imagine how bad that must have been

I used to go to Turkey a lot in the nineties and that was weird enough with every few weeks the Lire notes would have a few extra noughts printed on them

[s(k)aturation]

Reparations were due to be paid off in 66 years so they wouldn't still be paying them off now. The Germans were given American loans to help boost their economy in 1924 and more time to pay reparations and in 1929 the amount of reparations was cut drastically.

 

Sorry for my exaggeration, Frank.

66 years would have seemed like an eternity to the innocent unwashed who couldn't afford to put food on the table.

 

And as I mentioned earlier, the economic boosts and alteration of Versailles' terms also began to co-incide with "private" money coming from America too, which was funding Germany's "illegal" re-armament programme. 

 

Yes, things had changed by 1929 because the political interests of a new world, rather than a heart for Germany's economic plight, were afoot.

 

But no, the German burgher would not still have been paying reparations now.  Again, sorry for the exaggeration.

[s(k)aturation]

Hyperinflation, can't imagine how bad that must have been

I used to go to Turkey a lot in the nineties and that was weird enough with every few weeks the Lire notes would have a few extra noughts printed on them

 

It was bad.

 

I experienced it in the old Yugoslavia in 1989.

 

European tourists on the piss used to burn their Dinars for a bit of a lark... after they'd eaten their 4-quid spit roasted lamb or char-grilled shellfish dinners.

 

The locals were quite rightly not amused with their livelihoods being insulted so.

[halewood pete]

Just like to comment that this is a very interesting thread being well debated.

[s(k)aturation]

Didnt help that the French army had shitty morale and were crying the British were making them fight

 

My kingdom for a Richard Coeur de Lion might have been the cry at the time.

[s(k)aturation]

Just like to comment that this is a very interesting thread being well debated.

 

Thanks, Pete.  I am enjoying participating in it a lot.

 

Hats off to His Lordship for starting it, although I think I may have derailed the Artillery discussions, of which I have absolutely zero knowledge.

 

Safely tucked away back at HQ me, with my hand perennially submerged in the drinks cabinet.

[Lee909]

I like the way the thread has gone. Its good to have a good debate on the various issues of history. Even better when you get differing strong opinions but it stays a healthy debate rather the slagging matches on the FF

 

[moof]

I like the way the thread has gone. Its good to have a good debate on the various issues of history. Even better when you get differing strong opinions but it stays a healthy debate rather the slagging matches on the FF

Shut the fuck up cunt

[s(k)aturation]

We should get Stringy on here.

The perspective of someone who had already seen the ravages of The Great War first-hand might provide invaluable moderation.

[halewood pete]

I love watching or reading anything about military history,particularly the second world war and specifically naval history.seriously considered joining royal navy as a seventeen year old but opted to stay in Liverpool in the end and started work in a shipping office,but another son of halewood and friend of mine ,henry Duffy did join the navy and has had a fantastic career,ending up as commander of HMS Liverpool,and he is currently the commanding officer at the naval training school in Dartmouth.

When he brought HMS Liverpool into port here for the last time I went to see him on board and he gave me a great signed photograph of the ship ploughing through the waves which I have hung in the hallway.

I mentioned on here too a few years ago that when I worked at garston docks,one of the container ship captains which operated from garston to Belfast was a young U boat crew man during the war,and he was a great fella,I would sometimes ask him about the war and his experiences.at the weekend ,he would always come over with a few beers for the office staff while we were sorting out the stow plan,manifest,and container notes and one day the cruel sea film was on so he watched it with us for a bit,and when a part came on when the U boat crew were getting depth charged he said you could have no idea of the terror and the conditions they had to endure under attack,somtimes being hunted for days,he was acutely aware how very lucky he was to come through it,when you consider that I think the figures are out of all U boat crews 75% were killed.

He said he had no fear now of the sea,and in the winter,he would sail in the most atrocious storms,whereas the other ships captain,also German was married to an English woman and they had a shop on the Wirral so he would much rather stay put for the bad weather. The U boat mans crew,who were all Filipino used to moan in the winter about sailing if the other ship didn't ,but they all thought the world of him,he was a very kind man .His name was Herbert null and I'm guessing he must be dead now cos I'm going back thirty odd years here.happy days on garston docks !

[KopOut]

I love watching or reading anything about military history,particularly the second world war and specifically naval history.seriously considered joining royal navy as a seventeen year old but opted to stay in Liverpool in the end and started work in a shipping office,but another son of halewood and friend of mine ,henry Duffy did join the navy and has had a fantastic career,ending up as commander of HMS Liverpool,and he is currently the commanding officer at the naval training school in Dartmouth.

When he brought HMS Liverpool into port here for the last time I went to see him on board and he gave me a great signed photograph of the ship ploughing through the waves which I have hung in the hallway.

I mentioned on here too a few years ago that when I worked at garston docks,one of the container ship captains which operated from garston to Belfast was a young U boat crew man during the war,and he was a great fella,I would sometimes ask him about the war and his experiences.at the weekend ,he would always come over with a few beers for the office staff while we were sorting out the stow plan,manifest,and container notes and one day the cruel sea film was on so he watched it with us for a bit,and when a part came on when the U boat crew were getting depth charged he said you could have no idea of the terror and the conditions they had to endure under attack,somtimes being hunted for days,he was acutely aware how very lucky he was to come through it,when you consider that I think the figures are out of all U boat crews 75% were killed.

He said he had no fear now of the sea,and in the winter,he would sail in the most atrocious storms,whereas the other ships captain,also German was married to an English woman and they had a shop on the Wirral so he would much rather stay put for the bad weather. The U boat mans crew,who were all Filipino used to moan in the winter about sailing if the other ship didn't ,but they all thought the world of him,he was a very kind man .His name was Herbert null and I'm guessing he must be dead now cos I'm going back thirty odd years here.happy days on garston docks !

Both sides endured a kind of hell on earth during convoy action in ww2.

 

In the earlier "happy times" as the uboat crews called them, it amounted to nothing more than the slaughter of British civilians, but as the Royal Navy got its act together, the tables were turned and young Germans died horrible deaths plunging hundreds or even thousands of meters into watery graves.

 

The Cruel Sea is a great film, but my all time favourite would be Wolfgang Peterson's Das Boot, based on a true story and filmed in an original type VII Uboat.

[ben48]

Das boot was brilliant as you say.

[VladimirIlyich]

I love watching or reading anything about military history,particularly the second world war and specifically naval history.seriously considered joining royal navy as a seventeen year old but opted to stay in Liverpool in the end and started work in a shipping office,but another son of halewood and friend of mine ,henry Duffy did join the navy and has had a fantastic career,ending up as commander of HMS Liverpool,and he is currently the commanding officer at the naval training school in Dartmouth.

When he brought HMS Liverpool into port here for the last time I went to see him on board and he gave me a great signed photograph of the ship ploughing through the waves which I have hung in the hallway.

I mentioned on here too a few years ago that when I worked at garston docks,one of the container ship captains which operated from garston to Belfast was a young U boat crew man during the war,and he was a great fella,I would sometimes ask him about the war and his experiences.at the weekend ,he would always come over with a few beers for the office staff while we were sorting out the stow plan,manifest,and container notes and one day the cruel sea film was on so he watched it with us for a bit,and when a part came on when the U boat crew were getting depth charged he said you could have no idea of the terror and the conditions they had to endure under attack,somtimes being hunted for days,he was acutely aware how very lucky he was to come through it,when you consider that I think the figures are out of all U boat crews 75% were killed.

He said he had no fear now of the sea,and in the winter,he would sail in the most atrocious storms,whereas the other ships captain,also German was married to an English woman and they had a shop on the Wirral so he would much rather stay put for the bad weather. The U boat mans crew,who were all Filipino used to moan in the winter about sailing if the other ship didn't ,but they all thought the world of him,he was a very kind man .His name was Herbert null and I'm guessing he must be dead now cos I'm going back thirty odd years here.happy days on garston docks !

Very interesting.

I could listen to stories from people who have actual real life experience of these events all day. I feel ashamed how old people are treated in this country in particular when we can learn so much. Both my Nans lived into their early 90s and I was always fascinated by their experiences and enjoyed them relating stuff from their youth. They never spoke too much about it but when they did I would listen and imagine a whole different world,and world view.

An alternate view from a German or Japanese who lived through the War would be invaluable and I loved the film Letters from Iwo Jima because it tried to do exactly that.

[Alan Sex]

We should get Stringy on here.

The perspective of someone who had already seen the ravages of The Great War first-hand might provide invaluable moderation.

I heard he fought in South Africa.

 

Don't get him started on that, he can be such a Boer.