Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Section_31]

Just so I'm clear... 

 

What's to stop us remaining in the UK and governing and improving what we actually produce and trade? 

 

I read somewhere that it's only a small majority of stuff that countries buy from us; surely that's a more wider issue? 

 

The biggest reason we can't go it alone is because our government and ruling class don't care whether we're alive or dead. 

 

If you had a centre left leader with a grand plan and some kind of proposals to allie with similar countries and trade with them them it'd be a different story, but this country has been hollowed out industrially to the point where it only makes money through shite service sector jobs and the smoke and mirrors of high finance. Unless that changes we can't really take the chance on removing any potential life support. 

[jimmycase]

Not expecting anything. It's too close to call. That's why I said "wait and see".

 

So hypothetically then, presuming Remain wins, will you support or be campaigning for the UK to join the Euro?

[Spy Bee]

I've been offered a deal. Apparently, if I let this chap take £350 out of my wallet each week, he's going to give me vouchers for £180,which I can only spend on things he's decided I can have, at shops which he's also decided for me. In return for letting me have fishing rights in my private lake (and letting me keep just two fish a year) he's going to let me buy things from his friends and family (German cars, French wine, etc). His friends and family can also come and see me whenever they feel like it, and I can send pocket money to their children back at his place. Now, should I accept this offer, (or anything similar)? Hat tip to an 'undecided' voter.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

So hypothetically then, presuming Remain wins, will you support or be campaigning for the UK to join the Euro?

Ask me in two weeks.

[moof]

I've been offered a deal. Apparently, if I let this chap take £350 out of my wallet each week, he's going to give me vouchers for £180,which I can only spend on things he's decided I can have, at shops which he's also decided for me. In return for letting me have fishing rights in my private lake (and letting me keep just two fish a year) he's going to let me buy things from his friends and family (German cars, French wine, etc). His friends and family can also come and see me whenever they feel like it, and I can send pocket money to their children back at his place. Now, should I accept this offer, (or anything similar)? Hat tip to an 'undecided' voter.

Think of it as more like child support, where a deadbeat dad (Westminster) is made to pay for his neglected offspring (South/west Wales, north England, Scotland, Northern Ireland) because if left to his own devices he would see his offspring living in abject poverty as long as his pockets were lined. You think whatever money we're saving by not paying in to the eu would go towards battling inequality in this country and funding the NHS? I don't wish to put words in your mouth but if that is so, you are sorely mistaken.

[Spy Bee]

Think of it as more like child support, where a deadbeat dad (Westminster) is made to pay for his neglected offspring (South/west Wales, north England, Scotland, Northern Ireland) because if left to his own devices he would see his offspring living in abject poverty as long as his pockets were lined. You think whatever money we're saving by not paying in to the eu would go towards battling inequality in this country and funding the NHS? I don't wish to put words in your mouth but if that is so, you are sorely mistaken.

I think we can influence that locally.

[cloggypop]

Less shitty Facebook analogies please.

[jimmycase]

Think of it as more like child support, where a deadbeat dad (Westminster) is made to pay for his neglected offspring (South/west Wales, north England, Scotland, Northern Ireland) because if left to his own devices he would see his offspring living in abject poverty as long as his pockets were lined. You think whatever money we're saving by not paying in to the eu would go towards battling inequality in this country and funding the NHS? I don't wish to put words in your mouth but if that is so, you are sorely mistaken.

 

Why do you think a Labour Government wouldnt put that money into the NHS?

[njackets]

Less shitty Facebook analogies please.

I'd rather read them than read about the Tories!

[moof]

Why do you think a Labour Government wouldnt put that money into the NHS?

We don't have a labour government.

[jimmycase]

We don't have a labour government.

 

The question was, "why do you not think a Labour Government would not spend the money on the NHS" (or other causes). The question wasnt what government is in power today?

 

Why do you not think a Labour government would not spend the money on the NHS?

[Spy Bee]

We don't have a labour government.

And even if we did, it would be a Tory Labour government. That's a decent argument, but as I have said before, it's short-termism. This is not about the government of the day, this is a long term vote. Get that right, then focus on influencing the government of the day. Get that wrong and forget influencing anything!

[moof]

And even if we did, it would be a Tory Labour government. That's a decent argument, but as I have said before, it's short-termism. This is not about the government of the day, this is a long term vote. Get that right, then focus on influencing the government of the day. Get that wrong and forget influencing anything!

See, I think you've got that backwards. Concentrate on getting someone decent in power before we rip off the safety blanket of the eu. If the end game is to oust the tories and incite a real change in the political system over here, we're better off doing it from a position where the most vulnerable are offered relative security.

 

Hypothetically, what's to stop prime minister Boris Johnson decimating workers rights, education subsidies, local projects, the agricultural industry and selling off the NHS?

[jimmycase]

See, I think you've got that backwards. Concentrate on getting someone decent in power before we rip off the safety blanket of the eu. If the end game is to oust the tories and incite a real change in the political system over here, we're better off doing it from a position where the most vulnerable are offered relative security.

 

Hypothetically, what's to stop prime minister Boris Johnson decimating workers rights, education subsidies, local projects, the agricultural industry and selling off the NHS?

 

The problem facing your philosophy is, that EU referendums dont come along every 5 years. General Elections do. Miss this opportunity to reject the EU and you'll likely be fortunate to see another one in your lifetime.

 

Im under no illusion, if we stay, the UK will be so entwined in the EU, no referendum on Earth would extracate us.

[jimmycase]

OK, hypothetically what's to stop prime minister boris scraping workers rights, education subsidies, local projects, agricultural industry and selling off the NHS?

 

First, no party would go to the polls without that lot of proposals in their manifesto. The proposals are such an anathema to the British Public they wouldnt risk springing that onto the electorate after the election. Please give me examples of numerous major social and economic policies implemented by a government without first notifying the electorate.

 

If they did publish a manifesto with that lot in it, they'd risk not getting elected. If fact, Id say it was a certainty they wouldnt get elected.

 

To push all that drastic legislation through Parliament, old boris would need a sizeable majority because despite what some may think, not all tory MPs would support such policies.

 

Even if prime minister boris got that legislation through the Commons, he's going to have to get it through the Lords. The Lords recently defeated the Government on a couple of Bills including a Finance Bill which hasnt happened since the early 20th century.

 

Even if prime minister boris cant get that through the Lords, he could use the Parliament Act to underpin the Commons superiority. Seeing as that Act has only been used 7 times ever, I think it highly unlikely prime minister boris would use it to push through such contentious legislation.

 

And even if he did, the Bills would have to gain Royal Ascent before being enacted. It would be very very unusual for the Monarch not to do this though.

 

In short, the scenario is just scaremongering.

[Barrington Womble]

 

 

The problem facing your philosophy is, that EU referendums dont come along every 5 years. General Elections do. Miss this opportunity to reject the EU and you'll likely be fortunate to see another one in your lifetime.

 

Im under no illusion, if we stay, the UK will be so entwined in the EU, no referendum on Earth would extracate us.

And you think we're not entwined now? This is why it would be such a disaster to leave. The EU is an extension of us today.

[cloggypop]

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/01/05/the-promises-boris-johnson-has-broken-as-mayor

[jimmycase]

 

And you think we're not entwined now? This is why it would be such a disaster to leave. The EU is an extension of us today.

 

Not so much that we cant extract ourselves.

 

Since the last referendum in 75 to stay in the Common Market \ EEC, the Treaty of Maastricht turned the EEC into the EU. We didnt get a vote on that. It also shows how the landscape can change without the populations support and agreement.

 

As ive said, this is likely our last chance to get out.

[cloggypop]

 



 

TORY MP WHO SAYS LEAVING EU WOULD PROTECT WAGES IS ADVERTISING JOB FOR LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE

 

FRIDAY 10 JUNE 13:53

 

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In media interviews almost daily, Tory MP Andrea Leadsom calls for Britain to leave the EU to protect wages and raise living standards here.

 

Then why can’t she offer a job for at least the national minimum wage?

 

Last night, Andrea Leadsom was on ITV’s debate on the EU Referendum, arguing that the UK does not need the EU to protect rights.

 

She added that cutting EU immigration would also raise wages in Britain.

 

But that’s hypocritical given that employers such as Leadsom herself don’t want to pay workers even the National Minimum Wage.

 

The MP is currently advertising for a job as a caseworker, for the measily sum of £170 a week.

 

That works out to £4.85 an hour.

 

The Minimum Wage rate is £5.30 for those 18 – 20 years old, and £6.70 for 21 – 24 years of age.

 

Leadsom gets away with it by calling the job an ‘apprentice’, which allows her to pay a lower legal minimum.

 

On TV last night, Leadsom said:

 

What we are finding is that… uncontrollable immigration is having a dampening effect on wages.

 

No Ms Leadsom, it’s employers like you, unwilling to pay the Minimum Wage, who are driving down wages

 

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/tory-mp-who-says-leaving-eu-would-protect-wages-is-advertising-job-for-less-than-minimum-wage/

[Barrington Womble]

Not so much that we cant extract ourselves.

 

Since the last referendum in 75 to stay in the Common Market \ EEC, the Treaty of Maastricht turned the EEC into the EU. We didnt get a vote on that. It also shows how the landscape can change without the populations support and agreement.

 

As ive said, this is likely our last chance to get out.

You clearly don't work in a business that is outward looking to Europe. I think we are way beyond the point of return and I haven't seen one single argument that is worth destabilising that. No doubt the EU wastes money etc, one trip to Brussels shows anyone that, but I'm much happier we try to change from within. As they saying goes, I'd sooner be on the inside passing out than the outside passing in.

[jimmycase]

You clearly don't work in a business that is outward looking to Europe. I think we are way beyond the point of return and I haven't seen one single argument that is worth destabilising that. No doubt the EU wastes money etc, one trip to Brussels shows anyone that, but I'm much happier we try to change from within. As they saying goes, I'd sooner be on the inside passing out than the outside passing in.

 

Good for you. Can I take it you're equally happy to give up the Pound for the Euro?

[Barrington Womble]

Good for you. Can I take it you're equally happy to give up the Pound for the Euro?

Why would you make that assumption? This is a change to the status quo and I think you need very strong and compelling reason to do that, hence why I see no reason to leave. I don't see a compelling reason today to join the euro today, but I wouldn't rule it out forever - I think we need to be a little closer both politically and economically before we should make that move.

 

[jimmycase]

Why would you make that assumption? This is a change to the status quo and I think you need very strong and compelling reason to do that, hence why I see no reason to leave. I don't see a compelling reason today to join the euro today, but I wouldn't rule it out forever.

 

Its a question not an assumption. So you're not prepared to give up the Pound for the Euro yet you want to integrate into the EU only so far? Why dont you want full integration with the EU, the Euro and Fiscal Policy?

[Barrington Womble]

Its a question not an assumption. So you're not prepared to give up the Pound for the Euro yet you want to integrate into the EU only so far? Why dont you want full integration with the EU, the Euro and Fiscal Policy?

I think I answered that in my last post.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Good for you. Can I take it you're equally happy to give up the Pound for the Euro?

Nobody's biting. Give it up.

 

If "Remain" wins, start a thread on it and see how it goes.