Islamic Positive Thread

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Yes. It's like asking him to prove the sun is hot. Especially when you already replied to a quote about crucifying people waging war on Islam (because you felt it apparently more honest to pretend that people can't define "waging a war" on an idea any way they want, and that single quote wouldn't quite easily justify ISIS actions).

 

You don't seem to be able, or willing, to grasp the point that the "good" Muslims are claiming to be the actual, proper muslims, because they follow a nice bit of the book. They aren't. They are no more "proper" than the ones who pick the bad bits of the book. That you keep pretending that there isn't text that would justify all sorts of horrible shit, or that people have to go and fetch it for you, is childish.

 

You are taking a position. Your position is that you are demanding proof of the above, and as such need convincing that it is the case. Which, as I say, makes you either deeply naive or someone that isn't an honest actor here in the conversation.

 

But all that is pretty irrelevant. All you need to have a 100% solid claim of being the most proper Muslim ever is to say you are. That's how religion works. Nobody gets to tell you that god isn't talking to you and nobody else, or that you're not the one practicing the lord's word.

I'm struggling to see why you're not getting this (or why you're getting so worked up about it).  Rico suggested that there are verses in the Quran which justify indiscriminate killing.  I've never read the Quran, but I have my doubts, for two reasons

1.  There are no shortage of people like Rico, eager to tell everyone about every negative aspect of Islam, and yet I've never heard that one.

2.  There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.  If the Quran was telling them all to kill people indiscriminately, then I'm sure we would have heard about this before now.

 

Rico can settle this.  He claims the scriptural support for indiscriminate killing is there; let him show it.

[Jairzinho]

If the Quran was telling them all to kill people indiscriminately, then I'm sure we would have heard about this before now.

 

 

Either that or we'd all be dead.

[Stu Monty]

We're done here mate. I'm not going to keep trying to convince you that there's not nasty things in the Quran (despite you already having seen something that someone could quite easily make an argument justifies killing the heathens that are waging war on Islam). It's like administering medicine to the dead.

 

If I decide you are waging war on Islam with your posts I can crucify you. Your interpretation of things is irrelevant. I've read those words and decided it is my god's will. End of story.

[Rico1304]

Again, I'm not taking any position. Rico (who, let's face it, enjoys poring over the negative aspects of Islamic scripture much more than is healthy) reckons that the Quran provides justification for indiscriminate murder; why else would he accuse the authors of that poster of "cherry-picking"?

 

He's claiming that such verses exist. Is it unreasonable to ask to see them?

I don't know any Islamic scripture, apart from the fact the verse after the often quoted one is well, less than nice.

 

In the same way I know that the story of Lot and his wife is followed by a rarely mentioned incident where Lot's daughters get him pissed and rape him. Or the bit before when Lot offers his daughters to be raped instead of the Angel - lovely book.

 

The Quran contains verses that allow murder, slavery, chucking gays off roofs, choping hands off etc etc etc. You say it's only when under attack, they say otherwise. They've got Muslim scholars and Imams saying they are justified, you are a bloke from Tuebrook so no doubt your jurisprudence counts for more. Fucking hilarious.

[moof]

Are all the Muslims Isis are killing waging war on Islam?

 

If they were only killing infadels then fair enough, you can argue they got that from the book. Pretty sure the book says fuck all about incessantly slaughtering men, women and children who worship almighty allah.

 

Which is the point AoT is making. Which is why Isis aren't really "proper" Muslims. Whatever the fuck that means.

[Stu Monty]

Are all the Muslims Isis are killing waging war on Islam?

 

If they were only killing infadels then fair enough, you can argue they got that from the book. Pretty sure the book says fuck all about incessantly slaughtering men, women and children who worship almighty allah.

 

Which is the point AoT is making. Which is why Isis aren't really "proper" Muslims. Whatever the fuck that means.

 

No, it isn't the point AoT is making. At all.

 

Nobody gets to tell someone that they aren't a proper Muslim, or that their interpretation of the book is the wrong one. That is the central, unavoidable point here. Bad or Good, their interpretation is just as valid. And the fact their god hasn't struck them down is a pretty solid vote of confidence too.

[Bruce Spanner]

Are all the Muslims Isis are killing waging war on Islam?

 

If they were only killing infadels then fair enough, you can argue they got that from the book. Pretty sure the book says fuck all about incessantly slaughtering men, women and children who worship almighty allah.

 

Which is the point AoT is making. Which is why Isis aren't really "proper" Muslims. Whatever the fuck that means.

 

 

These being my favourites...

 

 

 

Korani Islam Korani is a stream within Islam that is Zionist, loyal to the State of Israel, and believes that loving the Jews is a religious duty. They believe that the Jewish people are the Chosen People, and that the Holy Land belongs to them.

There is no disparity between Zionism and Islam. According to the Koran, only the Jews have a divine right to the Land of Israel. Every Korani Muslim is a true Zionist. And there are many, though most will not openly identify as such for fear of reprisals.

Today, there are many streams within Islam. But during the time of the Prophet Mohammed, Islam split into just three streams: the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Korani. The majority of Muslims are now Sunni. Every Muslim that truly believes in the Koran is Korani. The difference between the two is that while the Sunnis prioritize the sayings and actions of Mohammed [recorded in the Hadith], the Korani focus solely on the Koran. * Mohammed's remarks against the Jews do not appear in the Koran, but rather in the Hadith.

They believe that Israel should not divide the land, but also that its borders will actually expand. The Holy Land is actually the entire area from Iraq to Egypt. The Koran defines the borders of this land. The establishment of a Greater Kingdom of Israel covering this area is a Koranic prophesy.

In the Koran there are 20 verses stating that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews. Every Muslim knows that the Al Aqsa Mosque [on the Temple Mount] is only referenced in vague terms, and its location is not revealed. In fact, it is most likely in Saudi Arabia.

In 1967, when the Temple Mount fell into Israel's hands, there were no `Palestinian' people and the Temple Mount had never been under Palestinian control. It is a minor dispute that the Palestinians have succeeded in turning into a religious war

 

It's pathetic that we are even discussing religion as a relevant thing and not something consigned to antiquity in the age of electricity, but hey-ho.

[Bruce Spanner]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

[Rico1304]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

Emo Philips

[Bruce Spanner]

Emo Philips

 

Yeah, always makes me chuckle.

[skend04]

I don't know any Islamic scripture, apart from the fact the verse after the often quoted one is well, less than nice.

 

In the same way I know that the story of Lot and his wife is followed by a rarely mentioned incident where Lot's daughters get him pissed and rape him. Or the bit before when Lot offers his daughters to be raped instead of the Angel - lovely book.

 

The Quran contains verses that allow murder, slavery, chucking gays off roofs, choping hands off etc etc etc. You say it's only when under attack, they say otherwise. They've got Muslim scholars and Imams saying they are justified, you are a bloke from Tuebrook so no doubt your jurisprudence counts for more. Fucking hilarious.

That sounds like the biblical version. Pretty sure of what little i know there's no mention of what happens after Zoar in the Quran let alone a bout of incest to repopulate the world. Also a bit disingenuous to say that his daughters were offered up for a raping good time when most scholars agree that it was a plea to lawfully marry the women of Sodom rather than try and bum some angels that were ready to smite the town.

[Rico1304]

That sounds like the biblical version. Pretty sure of what little i know there's no mention of what happens after Zoar in the Quran let alone a bout of incest to repopulate the world. Also a bit disingenuous to say that his daughters were offered up for a raping good time when most scholars agree that it was a plea to lawfully marry the women of Sodom rather than try and bum some angels that were ready to smite the town.

Yes, that's the biblical version - offered as balance as I usually get hammered.

[Rico1304]

Yes, that's the biblical version - offered as balance as I usually get hammered.

And you do realise you're arguing about something that didn't happen.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

We're done here mate. I'm not going to keep trying to convince you that there's not nasty things in the Quran (despite you already having seen something that someone could quite easily make an argument justifies killing the heathens that are waging war on Islam). It's like administering medicine to the dead.

 

If I decide you are waging war on Islam with your posts I can crucify you. Your interpretation of things is irrelevant. I've read those words and decided it is my god's will. End of story.

I have never said that.

 

Of course there are "nasty things" in the Quran, as there are in other scriptures.  That's a given.  I was asking Rico to back up a specific point he made, that's all.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

 

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

 

One of my favourite bits in Life of Brian is the way they no sooner decide to follow Brian than they split into factions, following the gourd or the sandal.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Yes, that's the biblical version - offered as balance as I usually get hammered.

Best thing to do on a Monday night.

[Rico1304]

Hadith on the gays

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Did you miss this AoT?

[Rico1304]

I have never said that.

 

Of course there are "nasty things" in the Quran, as there are in other scriptures.  That's a given.  I was asking Rico to back up a specific point he made, that's all.

Which specific point I made by the way - can you link me?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Which specific point I made by the way - can you link me?

*sigh*

I can understand how you've forgotten.  It seems so long ago and we were all so carefree then.

 

There was a billboard in the USA saying "ISIS, you suck" with a reference to a verse in the Quran that says "life is sacred".  You accused them of cherry-picking, citing your cherry-picked interpretation of the following verse (but ignoring the one after that) to make your point that the actions of ISIS are consistent with the Quran.

 

You've found some horrible stuff from the Hadith there (matched by the violent anti-gay stuff in the Jewish and Christian scriptures) and your point would stand if persecuting gay people was the only appalling thing that ISIS do.  My point is that ISIS kill people - gay or straight, Muslim, Christian or Jewish - indiscriminately.  I very much doubt that indiscriminate killing is supported by the Quran.

[Rico1304]

*sigh*

I can understand how you've forgotten. It seems so long ago and we were all so carefree then.

 

There was a billboard in the USA saying "ISIS, you suck" with a reference to a verse in the Quran that says "life is sacred". You accused them of cherry-picking, citing your cherry-picked interpretation of the following verse (but ignoring the one after that) to make your point that the actions of ISIS are consistent with the Quran.

 

You've found some horrible stuff from the Hadith there (matched by the violent anti-gay stuff in the Jewish and Christian scriptures) and your point would stand if persecuting gay people was the only appalling thing that ISIS do. My point is that ISIS kill people - gay or straight, Muslim, Christian or Jewish - indiscriminately. I very much doubt that indiscriminate killing is supported by the Quran.

Oh right, so it wasn't a point I made. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

However, it's plain, as Monty as pointed out, that ISIS interprete the Koran's violent verses to justify their actions. It's impossible to ignore, but you can try to contort your way out of it. Hilariously ISIS acknowledge people like you in their propaganda.

 

Edit -'your point about me cherry picking is bollocks. I didn't cherry pick a quote, I provided the very next fucking verse.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Definitely not obsessed.

 

Definitely goes on about other religions to the same extent.

 

Haha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha

[Rico1304]

Definitely not obsessed.

Definitely goes on about other religions to the same extent.

Haha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha

You're a strange boy.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

You're a strange boy.

Says the bloke who repeats himself over and over about muzzies for about 2 years.

 

That's fucking strange!

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

What do we want?

 

A pew survey!

 

When do we want it?

 

Now! (But, preferably not one that you've already posted about 15 times before in this thread)

 

Chortle!

[Rico1304]

Says the bloke who repeats himself over and over about muzzies for about 2 years.

That's fucking strange!

If it'd been white Christian fundamentalists being apologised for I'd have done the same stuff. But you can't see that boy.