Keir Starmer

[Gnasher]

18 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Speaking of NHS privatisation. 

 

 

 

 

 

She did indeed, as the above example shows. Well said Paul. 

 

 

And John.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

12 hours ago, Arniepie said:

corbyn was broadly in favour of taking some industries back into public ownership and without a doubt, it was yet another stick to beat him with.

Yes, but there's a difference between being asked do you think the [insert industry] should be run by the public or private sector - and the argument from Corbyn's team was and remains that nationalisation is popular - and being asked 'do you think we should be spending hundreds of billions to renationalise in this period of economic instability and upcoming recession and possible recession'. I personally want public ownership within all of those spaces, but I don't think we necessarily have to do it in an ideological way, we need to do what's best for the future of the country and the people who'll be living in it over the long term. Oil and gas are things we need to be moving away from, so I would be way more in favour of starting a green energy company that puts the oil and gas out of business than I would spending hundreds of billions compensating already extremely wealthy people, then the energy market is owned by the public sector - or at least has a big stake in it - and you're doing something good for the environment.  Being left wing doesn't mean you have to be stupid or tied to the past. It's just some choose that way. 

 

Corbyn was beaten with a stick because of it, but not because it wasn't popular and there wasn't sizable support for nationalised industries (when asked the same question)

[Jack the Sipper]

On 29/12/2022 at 09:13, sir roger said:

Who the fuck are these nonentities that you guys keep dragging up as your 'standard bearers' of the left ?

I doubt more than 1000 lefties could even pick Bastani and the Novara woman out of a police line up.

 

Seeing as the left are all horrible people working against the Labour party, do you reckon McDonnell, Corbyn, Abbott, Sultana, Burgon and Byrne are the types of traitors who would co-ordinate an ' on the hour every hour ' resignation plot from a shadow cabinet and work hard in the background to nobble any chance of an election victory ?

 

I don't think Bastani, Owen Jones or Ash Sarkar are standard bearers of the left, but they are prominent media commentators on the left with large online followings. And they all have a few things in common: their undying support and allegiance to Corbyn, and their rabid criticism of Starmer, much of it completely without merit, and often when the Tories are on the ropes (look at the Bastani tweet I stuck up above). Has to be said that their views are very often mirrored by people on here, no matter what the posters may say about the commentators themselves. 

 

In fact, I don't think there is a standard bearer for the left in Britain. If only! Probably the closest to one that there's been in a generation is Corbyn, but on the biggest political issue in a generation, Brexit, he turned from a lifelong Eurosceptic backbencher to campaigning to remain in the EU as Labour leader. All the while we had half of the left arguing his old position about a capitalist's club (and Bob Crow arguing about cheap foreign labour lowering wages), with the other half saying that Brexit was intertwined with Little England and bigotry and that the cheap foreign labour argument was symptomatic of that bigotry! Even now, it seems the only things that unite the left are the things they're against, like Starmer.

 

The likes of Bastani and co, with their obsession with Corbyn, Starmer, and marginal causes, are just as representative of the left in this country as anyone is. 

 

As for asking if I think the likes of Abbot would organise a coup, probably not, on the basis that they wouldn't have the numbers to make it work. But if you're implying they have some underlying loyalty to Labour and its leader that the rest of them don't, then I disagree completely. All of them are serial rebels, both in the House and in the media. Corbyn, I think, was the most rebellious MP of his lifetime, or certainly among them. 

[Section_31]

18 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

I don't think Bastani, Owen Jones or Ash Sarkar are standard bearers of the left, but they are prominent media commentators on the left with large online followings. And they all have a few things in common: their undying support and allegiance to Corbyn, and their rabid criticism of Starmer, much of it completely without merit, and often when the Tories are on the ropes (look at the Bastani tweet I stuck up above). Has to be said that their views are very often mirrored by people on here, no matter what the posters may say about the commentators themselves. 

 

In fact, I don't think there is a standard bearer for the left in Britain. If only! Probably the closest to one that there's been in a generation is Corbyn, but on the biggest political issue in a generation, Brexit, he turned from a lifelong Eurosceptic backbencher to campaigning to remain in the EU as Labour leader. All the while we had half of the left arguing his old position about a capitalist's club (and Bob Crow arguing about cheap foreign labour lowering wages), with the other half saying that Brexit was intertwined with Little England and bigotry and that the cheap foreign labour argument was symptomatic of that bigotry! Even now, it seems the only things that unite the left are the things they're against, like Starmer.

 

The likes of Bastani and co, with their obsession with Corbyn, Starmer, and marginal causes, are just as representative of the left in this country as anyone is. 

 

As for asking if I think the likes of Abbot would organise a coup, probably not, on the basis that they wouldn't have the numbers to make it work. But if you're implying they have some underlying loyalty to Labour and its leader that the rest of them don't, then I disagree completely. All of them are serial rebels, both in the House and in the media. Corbyn, I think, was the most rebellious MP of his lifetime, or certainly among them. 

 

I do find part of the issue is trying to define what's meant by 'the left'. 

 

It's become a toxic brand due to the working class's perception of some of the commentators you mention and the views they espouse. 

 

It's been thrown in with 'woke', being pro immigration etc.

 

I think both right and left have are essentially trying to appeal to the same people now, but going about it in different ways and with different bolted on additional policies.

 

Sanders said of Trump in the run up to the election "he's identified many of the problems but none of the solutions". 

 

I actually think the picture has shifted massively and one of the reasons for the huge backlash against Truss was that there's no appetite for seeing brazen free rein given to the super rich (that's not to say they won't get it, just that there's no tolerance for it among the population- in stark contrast to the 80s).

 

I think the mood of the general public now is something on the blue Labour side of centrism. Imo.

 

 

[sir roger]

34 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

All of them are serial rebels, both in the House and in the media. Corbyn, I think, was the most rebellious MP of his lifetime, or certainly among them. 

 

Aye, I'll never forgive him for his treason when you guys were pushing for the abstention against Austerity.

 

Have a look at Corbyn and Starmer's shadow cabinets to see who had / has Labour's best interests at heart.

[Jack the Sipper]

2 hours ago, sir roger said:

 

Aye, I'll never forgive him for his treason when you guys were pushing for the abstention against Austerity.

 

Have a look at Corbyn and Starmer's shadow cabinets to see who had / has Labour's best interests at heart.

 

You guys? What, centrists?  Starmerites? It's getting beyond tedious me having to tell everyone on this site who views politics through the prism of personalities that I supported Corbyn as leader, just as I'm supporting Starmer as leader now. 

 

And don't you think that every single Labour MP who revolted against Corbyn thought they had Labour's and the country's best interests at heart? Why are Corbyn's numerous rebellions against the leadership somehow more out of loyalty to Labour than any other MP? because you agreed with the things he was rebelling against? 

 

And why do you think Corbyn had the right to expect loyalty as leader when he showed none to Labour leaders as a backbencher? Don't you think he made a rod for his own back there?

[Gnasher]

On 30/12/2022 at 12:25, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

You're a nobody; there's no chance you could upset me. I'd happily see your throat slit and wouldn't raise an eyebrow. You're now trying to deflect that you can't count, that you were completely wrong - again - and you're now banging on about Sultana. Anyway, that's it from me you fruit loop, you're on ignore. Somebody let me know if he dies in a horrible way so that I can celebrate. 

 

You really need to think twice before writing posts promoting violence on the Internet like that chump.  

[sir roger]

3 hours ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

You guys? What, centrists?  Starmerites? It's getting beyond tedious me having to tell everyone on this site who views politics through the prism of personalities that I supported Corbyn as leader, just as I'm supporting Starmer as leader now. 

 

And don't you think that every single Labour MP who revolted against Corbyn thought they had Labour's and the country's best interests at heart? Why are Corbyn's numerous rebellions against the leadership somehow more out of loyalty to Labour than any other MP? because you agreed with the things he was rebelling against? 

 

And why do you think Corbyn had the right to expect loyalty as leader when he showed none to Labour leaders as a backbencher? Don't you think he made a rod for his own back there?

 

If Labour mps during Corbyn's leadership felt they could not support his lead on Parliamentary votes on ideological grounds  I would have no issue with that, although realistically most of the present shadow cabinet probably think a scruple is a new chocolate bar.

 

If however you are equating that with working in secret to hobble Labour candidates  that they didn't like, colluding with the right wing press to maximise the effect of shadow cabinet resignations and having their pet Gen Sec take the elected leader to court and waste members funds in a futile attempt to stop him being re-elected then I am sorry I can't agree.

 

I understand that the 12 years of horrible Tory rule can tempt an abandonment of almost every principle in a ' power at all costs ' direction, but I see it at best achieving a short term ' kinder Tory ' period while the public at large see up close what Starmer is like and a refreshed Conservative party work towards long term power again.

 

( In passing, I do appreciate your keeping to the topics even though we disagree fundamentally, Jack, as it is getting a bit nasty on here )

[Captain Howdy]

2 hours ago, sir roger said:

 

If Labour mps during Corbyn's leadership felt they could not support his lead on Parliamentary votes on ideological grounds  I would have no issue with that, although realistically most of the present shadow cabinet probably think a scruple is a new chocolate bar.

 

If however you are equating that with working in secret to hobble Labour candidates  that they didn't like, colluding with the right wing press to maximise the effect of shadow cabinet resignations and having their pet Gen Sec take the elected leader to court and waste members funds in a futile attempt to stop him being re-elected then I am sorry I can't agree.

 

I understand that the 12 years of horrible Tory rule can tempt an abandonment of almost every principle in a ' power at all costs ' direction, but I see it at best achieving a short term ' kinder Tory ' period while the public at large see up close what Starmer is like and a refreshed Conservative party work towards long term power again.

 

( In passing, I do appreciate your keeping to the topics even though we disagree fundamentally, Jack, as it is getting a bit nasty on here )

Think I’ve posted this before but Brown tells a good story, basically when Cameron thought the leave vote was gaining momentum he asked Brown if he would be willing to organise all Living Labour leaders past and present to share a platform in a remain show of unity. All of them agreed except for Jeremy Corbyn, he told Brown he wouldn’t share a platform with Blair under any circumstances…. So he’d share a platform with Hamas and the IRA but not Tony Blair. Make of that what you will.

[Arniepie]

12 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yes, but there's a difference between being asked do you think the [insert industry] should be run by the public or private sector - and the argument from Corbyn's team was and remains that nationalisation is popular - and being asked 'do you think we should be spending hundreds of billions to renationalise in this period of economic instability and upcoming recession and possible recession'. I personally want public ownership within all of those spaces, but I don't think we necessarily have to do it in an ideological way, we need to do what's best for the future of the country and the people who'll be living in it over the long term. Oil and gas are things we need to be moving away from, so I would be way more in favour of starting a green energy company that puts the oil and gas out of business than I would spending hundreds of billions compensating already extremely wealthy people, then the energy market is owned by the public sector - or at least has a big stake in it - and you're doing something good for the environment.  Being left wing doesn't mean you have to be stupid or tied to the past. It's just some choose that way. 

 

Corbyn was beaten with a stick because of it, but not because it wasn't popular and there wasn't sizable support for nationalised industries (when asked the same question)

Tbf in 2019 we all know the election was fought about 1 issue and 1 issue alone so I suppose what has stance on renationalisation didn't really matter.

And 3 years later its a moot point anyway I guess. 

I am always reminded of the video angry posted of Giles brandwith(sp?) going round Tunbridge Wells or somewhere, asking people's on policies which they all agreed on,until they found out they were cotbyn policies 

Which is indicative of the type of simpleton Starmer has to win over

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, Arniepie said:

Tbf in 2019 we all know the election was fought about 1 issue and 1 issue alone so I suppose what has stance on renationalisation didn't really matter.

And 3 years later its a moot point anyway I guess. 

I am always reminded of the video angry posted of Giles brandwith(sp?) going round Tunbridge Wells or somewhere, asking people's on policies which they all agreed on,until they found out they were cotbyn policies 

Which is indicative of the type of simpleton Starmer has to win over

 

 

 

Yeah, though he lost in 2017 too. And I agree, winning the votes of simpletons ain’t a pretty business. 

[Gnasher]

On 30/12/2022 at 12:25, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

You're a nobody; there's no chance you could upset me. I'd happily see your throat slit and wouldn't raise an eyebrow. You're now trying to deflect that you can't count, that you were completely wrong - again - and you're now banging on about Sultana. Anyway, that's it from me you fruit loop, you're on ignore. Somebody let me know if he dies in a horrible way so that I can celebrate. 

 

Would you talk to me like that in real life?

 

Or are you just a coward?

[Numero Veinticinco]

There's been a few policy announcements over previous weeks. They don't get talked about in this thread as, ya know, somebody might accidentally agree with one of them. I did think this was interesting enough to post though. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jan/02/labour-plans-overhaul-of-jobseeking-with-more-power-for-councils

 

''

“To grow our economy, every place needs an economic plan. We want to grow the economy across the country and make sure everybody feels the benefit. You cannot do that without local places being in the lead,” McGovern told the Guardian.

 

“At the moment, too much of DWP’s policy is made in a high-handed way from Whitehall, whereas we want to learn the lesson from the places that do it best and make sure every place has a really good plan for jobs for all its people.”

 

Brown’s Commission on the UK’s Future said the devolution of Jobcentre Plus should mean they become a hub for local employers – open to those looking to upskill, re-enter the workplace later in life or after childcare responsibilities, or start businesses and resources for civil society, trade union and private sector support.

 

It said that health services should have closer connections to job support and they should be data hubs for local market information.

 

Blunkett’s learning and skills report also recommends funding people to study with agreed providers and that the DWP “should allow people to study full or part-time, whilst on benefits for an agreed course”.

[Bjornebye]

NV there 'assuming' as usual that everyone who doesn't wank over his bum boy is against all Labour policies. 

 

[Gnasher]

The cutthroat razor mobs will out in force after this...

 

I blame Redfield and Wilton. Or twitter, or jumbely crobbin, or someone else.

 

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

On 02/01/2023 at 14:37, Numero Veinticinco said:

There's been a few policy announcements over previous weeks. They don't get talked about in this thread as, ya know, somebody might accidentally agree with one of them. I did think this was interesting enough to post though. 

 

 

No, I think it's because no-one noticed.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

No, I think it's because no-one noticed.

 

Yeah, maybe. I mean, it was all in the papers and national news, and people on here notice every time he glances at a union jack, but sure, nobody noticed. Maybe it just wasn't on Twitter. 

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

No, I think it's because no-one noticed.

 

No its because as announcements go its an irrelevant announcement to  people's fucking lives. 

 

People are dying on waiting lists, starving outside food banks and unable to heat homes, yet posh lad makes a silly dig about Twitter  

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

Yeah, maybe. I mean, it was all in the papers and national news, and people on here notice every time he glances at a union jack, but sure, nobody noticed. Maybe it just wasn't on Twitter. 

 

Clown.

[Jairzinho]

51 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

Yeah, maybe. I mean, it was all in the papers and national news, and people on here notice every time he glances at a union jack, but sure, nobody noticed. Maybe it just wasn't on Twitter. 

Righto.

 

[Section_31]

Which Labour politician do people think would be more popular with Joe Sixpack than Starmer, out of interest? 

[Gnasher]

18 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Which Labour politician do people think would be more popular with Joe Sixpack than Starmer, out of interest? 

 

Burnham or any other Labour politican willing to stop the continuing scandal of privatisation. Our energy/rail/water bills are the highest in Europe, not only can the public no longer afford it the costs to consumers are prohibiting growth within the wider economy.

[Section_31]

13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Burnham or any other Labour politican willing to stop the continuing scandal of privatisation. Our energy/rail/water bills are the highest in Europe, not only can the public no longer afford it the costs to consumers are prohibiting growth within the wider economy.

 

Do you think Burnham would be more popular than Starmer though, I mean with the man and woman in the street, not just existing Labour voters? I'm not so sure. 

[Jairzinho]

6 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Do you think Burnham would be more popular than Starmer though, I mean with the man and woman in the street, not just existing Labour voters? I'm not so sure. 

 

I'm not convinced either of them are/would be popular with Joe Six Pack. I think the plan isn't really to get them to vote, it's just to bore them sufficiently into not bothering to vote Tory.

 

I don't know that it would be possible to have a politician that could get them on board whilst also getting the more crucial support of Times readers in marginal seats.

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Do you think Burnham would be more popular than Starmer though, I mean with the man and woman in the street, not just existing Labour voters? I'm not so sure. 

 

I think he would, I think he'd be less divisive. I take your general point on the lack of political talent about at the moment though (on all sides).. if that was your general point. Parliament as a whole is grim.