Tail between the legs time...

[Liverpool lad]

I fancy us to get dicked by Blackburn

[RedKnight]

You went to Arsenal thinking we'd get a result? I can't remember the last time I thought that.

[redfromtubebar]

Sadly, Rafa lost his way. I think the politics and the board room drama at the club eventually overwhelmed him and he took his eye off the ball as far as the football side of things go. Before anybody comes back at me, let me state that I'm aware that Rafa played the politics game too, eventually to his detriment, but a focused Rafa Benitez was fantastic for us.

 

I think it's now a case of 'what might have been' as far as Benitez goes. When the American's arrived, we were on an upward curve and appearing in our second CL final under Benitez. Without all the distractions, I think things would have turned out differently under him as there is no doubt that he's a top, top coach under the right conditions.

 

In the end, Rafa had to go. As for returning in the future, maybe, but not for a while. I think somebody else deserves a go at it now.

[Jose Jones]

Yea, it was "minus only two players", but one of them just happened to be the player of the season that year and pretty much dictated how we played and everything went through him.

 

It's a ridiculous idea wanting Rafa to come back, in my opinion. It was the correct decision to get rid of him, and the incorrect decision to get Hodgson. The latter can't be solved by trying to fix the former.

 

I hold my hands up and say that I was one of the many people who would have said something like "anyone could do better than Rafa is doing at the moment" at the end of last season. Hodgson isn't doing any better. Not much has changed at all.

 

Indeed.

Even looking at the ownership crap he had to deal with Rafa has a fairly large part in the debacle of this season - his last few transfer dealings were awful.

If he'd got more of those right perhaps he'd still be here, but he didn't.

 

If we'd had one quality attacking player out of the 35 million quid spent on Keane and Aquilani, and one decent full back out of the 25 million quid spent on Johnson and Dossena, the team would be a lot stronger.

 

This isn't excusing Roy - as he's taken a team that was underperforming and had a few holes in the squad and basically made us play even worse - but Rafa wasn't turning shit into gold last season either.

[Lucky Pierre]

You went to Arsenal thinking we'd get a result? I can't remember the last time I thought that.

You didn't have the thought that we could keep it tight at the back and steal a goal late on?

[Carradona]

Good point, can't argue with that at all.

 

 

It is really a ridiculous idea wanting Rafa back, but to someone who thought it was a ridiculous idea suggesting that the club would be better off without him, surely you can look at Inter, see how he's getting on with players, and the board, and accept that we're jealous of Inter right now who have a top coach who we let go?

 

 

Apart from 11 league positions. Fans being vocal at a home and away match about replacing the manager. And the quality of football. Maybe not the style - still the same negative dire shite admittedly - but the 'controlling' the game Benítez was slagged off for. Also the optimism of the fans. I went to OT and the Emirates last year thinking we could nick a result. This season I've come out of the Blackpool match with more money than I went in with as I knew we would lose, and I can't see us taking any points against Blackburn next week.

 

The only reason I'm jealous of Inter is because they won the treble last season and I'm jealous of success. Not because of their manager. We both know how we feel with regards to Benitez, so there's not much point in going over that again, Cris.

 

With regards to fans being vocal against the manager, the same thing happened under Benitez. His substitutions were getting booed (even two seasons ago I can remember booing at home to Fulham because of a sub he made). I know you go the game, so surely you will remember the fans being vocal then too.

 

But yea, I'm worried about what's happening on the pitch. It's hard not to be. We can't hold onto the ball. We can't create anything. And like you said, we certainly can't control the game.

 

I can't see us getting the three points against Blackburn. That fat headed cunt Allardyce will have his team set up exactly in a way that will play into their hands.

[RedKnight]

You didn't have the thought that we could keep it tight at the back and steal a goal late on?

 

Err no, because we always get well beaten and outplayed there. Only in 2008 out of the last 8/9 years have I felt confident of going to Arsenal and winning.

[chauncey]

Indeed.

Even looking at the ownership crap he had to deal with Rafa has a fairly large part in the debacle of this season - his last few transfer dealings were awful.

If he'd got more of those right perhaps he'd still be here, but he didn't.

 

If we'd had one quality attacking player out of the 35 million quid spent on Keane and Aquilani, and one decent full back out of the 25 million quid spent on Johnson and Dossena, the team would be a lot stronger.

 

All valid points and difficult to argue, however the thing which irks me is that The Media have used these legitimate criticisms as a crutch for Roy (and continued to do so even after today's debacle). These attempts to mask more pertinent flaws are harming the team by absolving Roy of responsibility.

 

The Rafa excuse is wearing thin.

[Carradona]

Err no, because we always get well beaten and outplayed there. Only in 2008 out of the last 8/9 years have I felt confident of going to Arsenal and winning.

 

Because Benitez wasn't on the touchline? ;)

[piscinin]

Because he had alienated a large number of the key players, he had helped to generate a poisonous atmosphere inside and outside the club, he had constantly caused distractions to the team with his discussions about offers and interest from other clubs, his ridiculous attempts at messing with Ferguson's head, which damaged him (and us) far more than it did Ferguson, and he couldn't motivate or organise the team. We are absolutely shit this year, but we weren't much better last year. We were in a downward spiral, and short of replacing half a dozen players, including our best and most influential, it wasn't going to change.

 

You sound exactly like a Valencia fan the season before they won La Liga for the second time in three years.

[RedKnight]

Because Benitez wasn't on the touchline? ;)

 

Haha no, the Champions League game and subsequent league game against them.

[Lucky Pierre]

Err no, because we always get well beaten and outplayed there. Only in 2008 out of the last 8/9 years have I felt confident of going to Arsenal and winning.

We got outplayed and came away with 3 points at a lot of places under Rafa and Ged. That's how I grew up knowing Liverpool's style of football to be for a while!

[Il Fenomeno]

Thank god we have Roy Hodgson, Joe 'Better than Messi' Cole & Paul Konchesky to weather this storm.

[Jose Jones]

All valid points and difficult to argue, however the thing which irks me is that The Media have used these legitimate criticisms as a crutch for Roy (and continued to do so even after today's debacle). These attempts to mask more pertinent flaws are harming the team by absolving Roy of responsibility.

 

The Rafa excuse is wearing thin.

 

Yeah it's annoying, but that's what a lot of the press do these days, you very rarely get a reasoned and balanced analysis - there's always got to be an angle.

[dave]

Never thought he should have gone, but I respected people who gave constructed views as to why they think he should, even though I disagreed with them.

 

I just hope that maybe those people who claimed "anyone would do better with this team than Rafa" have seen the error in their ways.

 

Key point for me.

 

Also the latest one is "who was better than Hodgson" or now "who else is there who could replace Hodgson"

 

There were (in the summer) and are (now) quite a few options to replace this manager.

 

Kenny, Pelligrini, Lippi, Hiddink, Martin ONeill (hate this choice personally) etc

 

Need someone in who is in for the long haul and who will give youth a chance and try actually bring the team together, get some belief and win some bloody football matches.

[Liverpool lad]

Instead of just throwing names up can we have a list of those approached by the club and were genuinely interested in coming here?

[dave]

Far as I know Pelligrini defo met with somebody on the board/recruitment panel (possibly with Kenny)

[dave]

This was in the summer btw.

[Steve Holt]

I never wanted Rafa to go. I thought we owed it to him to give him one more season. I certainly never thought we were in any position to be appointing another manager of his calibre. I said so on here til I was blue in the face. But I got shouted down plenty by whoppers spitting feathers about how it didn't matter who we got in, we're Liverpool FC we'll find someone, anyone would be better than this cunt.

 

Well now look.

 

I would give anything to have him back. Fuck Gerrard. Fuck Carra. If they had a problem with him THEY should have been the ones to leave.

[Benitaur]

Rafa's Valencia was 5th the season before he won La Liga the second time

 

Fergie's Mancs were 6th the season before he won their first league title under him

 

I would have given Rafa another season IMO. He nearly won it the season before. He was in the midst of finally getting his own people in re the Academy and his own medical staff. He was finally given the power from bottom to top, the way Wenger is, so he could build from youngsters upwards with the technical and tactical training that he found lacking in Premiership players.

 

He was building for the long term, the way Wenger does. IMO the long term strategy was to buy the best youngsters and build teams from the youth. Buying stars every year isn't a long term, sustainable strategy.

 

IMO Rafa was perfect, if you are planning on building a stadium, and still challenge for trophies. He was our Wenger, and he did better than Wenger did for the same period he was here.

 

Saying it was time for him to go is remarkably short sighted, and has led to the position we are in right now.

 

With a positive transfer budget, I would be interested to see how Rafa does, as he has not been backed for 2 seasons, having to make a profit every transfer window.

 

I would not be complaining too, if Roy is managing and we are currently in the top 6. That would justify Rafa's leaving, seeing that any decent manager could do a better job.

 

As for the many lists of managers, its quite disturbing the lack of quality managers available

 

Capello and Hiddink are both not long term solutions, and I suspect are not interested in club football anymore

 

MON will be no better than Roy. Both only play counter attacking football

 

Dalglish is interesting for sentimental reasons. However, I don't know if he can cope with the current competition and current managerial responsibilities. I also want to remember him with fondness, and would hate to see him fail

 

Pellegrini also interests me. Gets his teams playing good football. However, he too is in the 60s age group and may or may not be here for the long haul.

 

Mourinho, not a chance. We don't have the financial backing for him to simply tweak to win. He too is never a manager who wants to build long term. Just win and go to the next ego challenge

 

I wouldn't reject any of them except for MON. I wouldn't take any of the young English managers bandied about either. Not unless they suddenly prove a surprise, like challenge for the title this year with some unfancied team, finishing above Chelsea or the Mancs.

[ngogswilly]

I fucking hate Martin O'Neill the fucking goblin faced bollox.

 

But at this point I'm convinced he'd at least get something out of the players.

Roy has driven me to the point of actually being open to the idea of appointing O'Neill.

 

I will forever dislike Roy for that.

[Steve Holt]

Rafa's Valencia was 5th the season before he won La Liga the second time

 

Fergie's Mancs were 6th the season before he won their first league title under him

 

I would have given Rafa another season IMO. He nearly won it the season before. He was in the midst of finally getting his own people in re the Academy and his own medical staff. He was finally given the power from bottom to top, the way Wenger is, so he could build from youngsters upwards with the technical and tactical training that he found lacking in Premiership players.

 

He was building for the long term, the way Wenger does. IMO the long term strategy was to buy the best youngsters and build teams from the youth. Buying stars every year isn't a long term, sustainable strategy.

 

IMO Rafa was perfect, if you are planning on building a stadium, and still challenge for trophies. He was our Wenger, and he did better than Wenger did for the same period he was here.

 

Saying it was time for him to go is remarkably short sighted, and has led to the position we are in right now.

 

With a positive transfer budget, I would be interested to see how Rafa does, as he has not been backed for 2 seasons, having to make a profit every transfer window.

 

I would not be complaining too, if Roy is managing and we are currently in the top 6. That would justify Rafa's leaving, seeing that any decent manager could do a better job.

 

As for the many lists of managers, its quite disturbing the lack of quality managers available

 

Capello and Hiddink are both not long term solutions, and I suspect are not interested in club football anymore

 

MON will be no better than Roy. Both only play counter attacking football

 

Dalglish is interesting for sentimental reasons. However, I don't know if he can cope with the current competition and current managerial responsibilities. I also want to remember him with fondness, and would hate to see him fail

 

Pellegrini also interests me. Gets his teams playing good football. However, he too is in the 60s age group and may or may not be here for the long haul.

 

Mourinho, not a chance. We don't have the financial backing for him to simply tweak to win. He too is never a manager who wants to build long term. Just win and go to the next ego challenge

 

I wouldn't reject any of them except for MON. I wouldn't take any of the young English managers bandied about either. Not unless they suddenly prove a surprise, like challenge for the title this year with some unfancied team, finishing above Chelsea or the Mancs.

 

 

To be fair to Pellegrini he is 57 so he could have the better part of a decade left in him yet.

 

Also Joachim Lowe is someone I'd like to see in club management. He isn't just a man who had a talented grup of players at the world cup. He and Jurgen Klinsmann were instrumental from as far back as 8 years ago in revolutionising the way German clubs taught their young players to play. Your Ozils and Mullers are as good as they are because of framework set in place but men like Lowe.

[Benitaur]

To be fair to Pellegrini he is 57 so he could have the better part of a decade left in him yet.

 

Also Joachim Lowe is someone I'd like to see in club management. He isn't just a man who had a talented grup of players at the world cup. He and Jurgen Klinsmann were instrumental from as far back as 8 years ago in revolutionising the way German clubs taught their young players to play. Your Ozils and Mullers are as good as they are because of framework set in place but men like Lowe.

 

You're right about Pellegrini. I was mistaken as I thought I read somewhere that he was 60.

 

Yep, Joachim Lowe is interesting too. He is the same age as Rafa 50. However, although he has done fantastic things with Germany, his club record isn't great.

 

Spain vs Germany in the semis was exactly what I would expect between a Rafa coached side vs a Lowe coached side, ie possession football vs counter attacking football.

 

I have a suspicion a Lowe coached side won't do so well vs the Barcalonas and Arsenals of this world.

[llego]

Spain vs Germany in the semis was exactly what I would expect between a Rafa coached side vs a Lowe coached side, ie possession football vs counter attacking football.

 

I have a suspicion a Lowe coached side won't do so well vs the Barcalonas and Arsenals of this world.

 

This is a misleading statement.

 

Both Loew and Rafa essentially share the same philosophy on attacking- that is, exploit those golden moments right after the opposition loses the ball, using a quick transition from defense to attack, to score goals with incisive movement and speed. Call it counterattacking but it's more developed than that, because the rest of their strategy does not involve sitting back and waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. Rather it is more about pressing, forcing errors high up on the pitch, and possession at the back to control the tempo.

 

Really there are many similarities between Loew's and Rafa's tactical philosophies, with Rafa perhaps emphasizing possession more and Loew preaching a slightly more offensive outlook.

 

What neither of these men play is the purely possession-based, systematic tikki-takka of Spain and Barcelona, where passing is emphasized over movement, shape is generally conservative, and the ball is relentlessly pinged around the danger zones until a gap appears.

[Sandman]

Not much has changed at all.

 

 

We're 19th!