The Roma repatriation

[Section_31]

This is Romania exporting their own social problems,this isn't a Uk or Irish or French run issue.Romania are doing today what Tunisia and Morrocco did in the 50's and 60's.We have enough social issues to deal with without exporting the dregs of some other society.Anytime you want to see the fuckers at work ,feel free to pop round to my place,it'll enlighten you.

 

Typical of this bullshit bleeding heart responses right through this thread though,if you agree with the French stance you are a bigoted racist who wants the gas chamber,if you're a helen lovejoy you're obviously righteous.

 

I think you're confusing two separate issues there. Immigration is an issue, one I have serious concerns about, but it's not one of race. That's completely different from simply making a sweeping statement about all of these people, as AngryofTubruck says, the minute you start the whole 'them and we' talk, it's a slippery slope. That's why people use pejorative words to describe people they don't like, gypo or nigger - once you reduce people to a word, it's easier to dismiss them.

 

Again, Gav, I'm sure you know that Irish immigrants fleeing poverty and famine had almost exactly the same reputation in their host countries as the reputation you're ascribing to the Roma. There's a whole back catalogue of anti-Irish cartoons from the era, describing them as - among other things - untrustworthy troublemakers and 'white negros'.

 

It was no more true of them than it is of the Roma, being ripped off by a skint four-year-old pick pocket does not change that fact.

[Yerma'satexan!]

My mate from work is a Kosovan Romani. I just had lunch with her now and this topic came up. She's frickin' ace, smart as fuck (works as a geophysicist) and hot as heck. I've known her for about a year now and she only disclosed her lineage to the rest of our mates recently for fear of discrimination. You like to think Europe would know better by now, sadly it doesn't.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Yerma'satexan!
.

[isr]

This is Romania exporting their own social problems,this isn't a Uk or Irish or French run issue.

 

The way gypsies from Romania are looked down upon now is not too disimilar to how gypsies (or travellers, or whatever the local term for them is in that area) are treated elsewhere. Including the UK and Ireland.

 

Anytime you want to see the fuckers at work ,feel free to pop round to my place,it'll enlighten you.

 

I grew up in the west of Ireland. I don't need the likes of you to "enlighten me". I saw plenty of gypsies, good and bad.

 

Typical of this bullshit bleeding heart responses right through this thread though,if you agree with the French stance you are a bigoted racist who wants the gas chamber,if you're a helen lovejoy you're obviously righteous.

 

Bogots are bigots. In this current "age of enlightenment" the only difference is that there are now only selected groups of people to whom one can publically express bigotry against, and get away with it.

 

If you feel you're a "bigoted racist", then my condolences.

[dudek#1]

Was in Romania only four days ago for a week (previoulsy Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia etc etc) and my view of the Roma has changed somewhat. Yes, they are a pain in the arse and the ones you see in bus and train stations are sometimes smelly and dirty and you find yourself trying to not make eye contact to avoid being pestered. But the ways they try to get money out of you borders on the comedic and you have to raise a smile. I have had no problems with them at all. Seems that it is only xenophobes and thick fucks who do.

[Tyler Durden]

Why is it when anything like this happens people start mentioning the fucking gas chambers? They are being removed from a country in which they have no home, legal right to be there, or jobs and they are being given £300 pound and a plane ticket for their troubles.

 

Its not like the French are removing any respectable Romani (of which im sure there must be some living there) from their homes and packing them off, its the ones who are living in shanty towns who are involved in crime/begging.

 

That doesnt mean im backing what they are doing but it just winds me up when people bring up something which was and is pretty much regarded as one of the worst acts in mankinds history because some Romani are being sent on their way with a wedge in their pockets, there is a slight difference.

[Yerma'satexan!]

Why is it when anything like this happens people start mentioning the fucking gas chambers? They are being removed from a country in which they have no home, legal right to be there, or jobs and they are being given £300 pound and a plane ticket for their troubles.

 

Its not like the French are removing any respectable Romani (of which im sure there must be some living there) from their homes and packing them off, its the ones who are living in shanty towns who are involved in crime/begging.

 

That doesnt mean im backing what they are doing but it just winds me up when people bring up something which was and is pretty much regarded as one of the worst acts in mankinds history because some Romani are being sent on their way with a wedge in their pockets, there is a slight difference.

 

To be fair, a lot of Romani were killed in the gas chambers, the forgotten victims if you will. Current estimates are that roughly 600,000 Roma were exterminated by the Nazi's, roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of their numbers in all of Europe and as much as 70% of those in areas where Nazi control had been established the longest.

 

TBH I find Romani people fascinating; their nomadic existence, their culture, their mythology, superstitions and taboos and above all, their refusal to be incorporated in modern society and with what they consider to be it's suspicious and corrupted principles.

 

And herein lies the biggest problem of all. They want their culture to be recognised and to be integrated into non-gypsy society without fear of discrimination. But they are naturally suspicious and so they should be. It is estimated at the time of abolition just over a century ago that well over half the entire gypsy population of Europe was enslaved, and thus, subjected to this economy for the previous five hundred years. This continued in Eastern Europe meanwhile in Western Europe the Roma were transported to Africa, the Americas and India for no other reason than they were “gyspies“. While their ex-owners were compensated to the sum of 96 francs per slave at the time of abolition, nothing was forthcoming from the Romanian government for the freed slaves themselves, no orientation programs set up to integrate the newly-liberated into society, no assistance with housing or health care. The Roma were left to fend for themselves in a hostile environment, totally unequipped to deal with the anti-Roma laws in effect everywhere throughout Europe and the world, with an increasing numbers now in Italy and of late, France.

 

Then there was the Holocaust. The Roma were chosen for total annihilation just because of their race. Over half a million Roma, almost the entire Eastern European Roma population, was wiped out during the Holocaust. And in the same way, nothing was done to help Roma after the war. None were called to testify at the Nuremberg Trials or any of the subsequent war crime hearings, and no reparation has ever been forthcoming. No Roma were invited to participate in the formation of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council, established by President Carter in 1979 to honour the memory of all who perished in the Third Reich and, despite three years lobbying in Washington on the part of a number of American Romani organizations to protest against this, the Office of Presidential Appointments voted in 1986 to exclude once again any Roma representation on the 65-member council.

 

Even nowadays, a high ranking Romanian politician explained the Roma situation by referring to America. "You know," they say, "The gypsies are like your Negroes: foreign, lazy, shiftless, untrustworthy and black.” While the enslavement of Gypsies has been abolished for over a century, equally inhumane forms of oppression continue to be perpetuated into the present day. In many ways, little has changed since the end of the Second World War; the persecutions continue. Official statements calling for the sterilization, deportation and even extermination of the Roma are still being released today in both eastern and western European countries. In Italy, a recent law has introduced the compulsory fingerprinting of all Roma people. The several hundred thousand Romani Americans are the only ethnic minority in the country against whom laws are still in effect, and who are portrayed negatively in school textbooks. And yet this Gypsy has been created out of the Romani population by non-gypsies, and become institutionalized in Euro-American folklore, and it is real “gypsies” who suffer because of it. But these crimes against humanity are seldom documented. Yet the world does not appear ready to believe that the enslavement of the Roma ever happened, or that it was significant enough to warrant being brought to the attention of the larger community. In Romani, there is the saying that "he who wants to enslave you will never tell you the truth about your forefathers." A people which have been denied access to the means by which other persecuted groups have been able to fight back - schooling, settled housing, opportunities for civil and political organization - remain at the mercy of the oppressive governments, the popular press and the Red Mist and Gav's of this world. But to juxtapose this, it is also this secret, mythical world which has also enabled the Roma to oppose globalisation and to hold on to it’s traditions without being assimilated.

 

Among the Roma there are activists who see the gains made by other minority groups and want to share in these gains. They ask for the respect of the non-Roma world and for equal job opportunities. The first step must be education. It is believed by some authorities that more than 95 percent of the Roma in America are illiterate. This number may be higher in Europe. However, before education is possible, non-Roma people will have to overcome their long hostility toward and misunderstanding of the Roma, and Roma parents will have to overcome their fear of corruption by non-Roma.

 

Although the Roma have largely adapted to living surrounded by foreign cultures, their social organization fosters the separation of Roma from non-Roma. This separation places Roma at a greater disadvantage than other, less separatist ethnic groups. While other ethnic groups have been denied equal rights in the past, the Roma have tended to stay apart by choice. Many Roma are slowly integrating and participating in the mainstream of European and American culture without compromising their identity. The advent of mass media has made it increasingly difficult for the Roma to maintain a separate cultural identity. Television follows them even if they migrate. The stress on literacy, which varies substantially among different Romani groups, seems to compound the problem. Although illiteracy, according to non-Roma standards, may help the Roma preserve their ethnic identity by isolating them, it also handicaps them in modern society. Illiteracy among many tribes prevents the cultural and intellectual values of the non-Roma from infiltrating and undermining traditional Roma society, maintaining the Romani sense of dignity and need for autonomy. Although they need and depend on contacts with their host countries as a source of their livelihood, the Roma do not want to be part of these societies in any sense that would involve compromise of their basic beliefs. Many Roma fear that over time integration could lead to assimilation, and the eventual disappearance of the Roma.

 

So as it stands they have to live torn between the romantic pariah status of their people and the embrace of a dominant culture which can hardly conceive of such a monster as an educated gypsy.

[Hermes]

 

TBH I find Romani people fascinating; their nomadic existence' date=' their culture, their mythology, superstitions and taboos [b']and above all, their refusal to be incorporated in modern society and with what they consider to be it's suspicious and corrupted principles. [/b]

 

 

Comical. How long do you think they'd survive sitting on the pavement with their hand out if there was nobody from the corrupt modern society to put something in it?

Edited September 1, 2010 by Hermes

[setreal]

Some years ago I translated a brochure for an exhibition in Berlin with photographs by Joakim Eskildsen who travelled to several countries visiting "Roma"-settlements.

These are some of the pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yerma'satexan!]

Comical. How long do you think they'd survive sitting on the pavement with their hand out if there was nobody from the corrupt modern society to put something in it?

 

How insightful. Aren't we a clever cloggs?

[rubble-rouser]

To anyone who uses the phrase 'do-gooder' as a term of abuse, what woudl you rather be? A do-gooder or a do-nothinger? I'm sure someone once said something along the lines of good people being do-nothingers will help badness. Maybe it was better phrased. I'm embarassed NOT to be a do-gooder when I don't give enough to charity, don't take time out to take a stance on issues, don't speak out against a tide of iognorance or bigotry and generally take the easy option - I'm embarassed when that happens - which it usually does - because it makes me no better than the likes of Red Mist and Hermes. And if my heart bleeds it's because I'm alive.

 

 

The scouser/roma analogy is apt. Where do you draw the line when it comes to matters of race/tribe etc? People are people and I'd rather share this planet with an intelligent, bleeding-heart, do-gooder gypsy than a bigotted, do-nothing pure English, pure scouse racist scumbag.

 

And to think I only logged onto the GF to look at titties (of women being exploited).

[Red Mist]

To be fair' date=' a lot of Romani were killed in the gas chambers, the forgotten victims if you will. Current estimates are that roughly 600,000 Roma were exterminated by the Nazi's, roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of their numbers in all of Europe and as much as 70% of those in areas where Nazi control had been established the longest.

 

TBH I find Romani people fascinating; their nomadic existence, their culture, their mythology, superstitions and taboos and above all, their refusal to be incorporated in modern society and with what they consider to be it's suspicious and corrupted principles.

 

And herein lies the biggest problem of all. They want their culture to be recognised and to be integrated into non-gypsy society without fear of discrimination. But they are naturally suspicious and so they should be. It is estimated at the time of abolition just over a century ago that well over half the entire gypsy population of Europe was enslaved, and thus, subjected to this economy for the previous five hundred years. This continued in Eastern Europe meanwhile in Western Europe the Roma were transported to Africa, the Americas and India for no other reason than they were “gyspies“. While their ex-owners were compensated to the sum of 96 francs per slave at the time of abolition, nothing was forthcoming from the Romanian government for the freed slaves themselves, no orientation programs set up to integrate the newly-liberated into society, no assistance with housing or health care. The Roma were left to fend for themselves in a hostile environment, totally unequipped to deal with the anti-Roma laws in effect everywhere throughout Europe and the world, with an increasing numbers now in Italy and of late, France.

 

Then there was the Holocaust. The Roma were chosen for total annihilation just because of their race. Over half a million Roma, almost the entire Eastern European Roma population, was wiped out during the Holocaust. And in the same way, nothing was done to help Roma after the war. None were called to testify at the Nuremberg Trials or any of the subsequent war crime hearings, and no reparation has ever been forthcoming. No Roma were invited to participate in the formation of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council, established by President Carter in 1979 to honour the memory of all who perished in the Third Reich and, despite three years lobbying in Washington on the part of a number of American Romani organizations to protest against this, the Office of Presidential Appointments voted in 1986 to exclude once again any Roma representation on the 65-member council.

 

Even nowadays, a high ranking Romanian politician explained the Roma situation by referring to America. "You know," they say, "The gypsies are like your Negroes: foreign, lazy, shiftless, untrustworthy and black.” While the enslavement of Gypsies has been abolished for over a century, equally inhumane forms of oppression continue to be perpetuated into the present day. In many ways, little has changed since the end of the Second World War; the persecutions continue. Official statements calling for the sterilization, deportation and even extermination of the Roma are still being released today in both eastern and western European countries. In Italy, a recent law has introduced the compulsory fingerprinting of all Roma people. The several hundred thousand Romani Americans are the only ethnic minority in the country against whom laws are still in effect, and who are portrayed negatively in school textbooks. And yet this Gypsy has been created out of the Romani population by non-gypsies, and become institutionalized in Euro-American folklore, and it is real “gypsies” who suffer because of it. But these crimes against humanity are seldom documented. Yet the world does not appear ready to believe that the enslavement of the Roma ever happened, or that it was significant enough to warrant being brought to the attention of the larger community. In Romani, there is the saying that "he who wants to enslave you will never tell you the truth about your forefathers." A people which have been denied access to the means by which other persecuted groups have been able to fight back - schooling, settled housing, opportunities for civil and political organization - remain at the mercy of the oppressive governments, the popular press and the Red Mist and Gav's of this world. But to juxtapose this, it is also this secret, mythical world which has also enabled the Roma to oppose globalisation and to hold on to it’s traditions without being assimilated.

 

Among the Roma there are activists who see the gains made by other minority groups and want to share in these gains. They ask for the respect of the non-Roma world and for equal job opportunities. The first step must be education. It is believed by some authorities that more than 95 percent of the Roma in America are illiterate. This number may be higher in Europe. However, before education is possible, non-Roma people will have to overcome their long hostility toward and misunderstanding of the Roma, and Roma parents will have to overcome their fear of corruption by non-Roma.

 

Although the Roma have largely adapted to living surrounded by foreign cultures, their social organization fosters the separation of Roma from non-Roma. This separation places Roma at a greater disadvantage than other, less separatist ethnic groups. While other ethnic groups have been denied equal rights in the past, the Roma have tended to stay apart by choice. Many Roma are slowly integrating and participating in the mainstream of European and American culture without compromising their identity. The advent of mass media has made it increasingly difficult for the Roma to maintain a separate cultural identity. Television follows them even if they migrate. The stress on literacy, which varies substantially among different Romani groups, seems to compound the problem. Although illiteracy, according to non-Roma standards, may help the Roma preserve their ethnic identity by isolating them, it also handicaps them in modern society. Illiteracy among many tribes prevents the cultural and intellectual values of the non-Roma from infiltrating and undermining traditional Roma society, maintaining the Romani sense of dignity and need for autonomy. Although they need and depend on contacts with their host countries as a source of their livelihood, the Roma do not want to be part of these societies in any sense that would involve compromise of their basic beliefs. Many Roma fear that over time integration could lead to assimilation, and the eventual disappearance of the Roma.

 

So as it stands they have to live torn between the romantic pariah status of their people and the embrace of a dominant culture which can hardly conceive of such a monster as an educated gypsy.[/quote']

'kin 'ell. The gypo colleague whose knickers you're trying to get into would be well impressed by that.

 

In all seriousness though, if so many of them weren't out committing crime or sending their kids out to steal and beg, nobody would have a problem with the Roma, despite their isolationist culture.

[Yerma'satexan!]

They are ace pictures them. Cheers. The girl lying down and the girl in the last one look proper Indian still. Which for those that didn't know is where the Roma originally emigrated from in the 11th century.

[Section_31]

Is this attitude even far removed from what we get from region to region in Britain though? You see it in subtle ways, I was reading an article in the Mail a few weeks ago (I was bored) about some BBC chief who was refusing to move from London to Salford, and they were comparing each town side-by-side, house prices, high street shops, crime etc, with stuff like 'single mothers pushing prams, kids eating sausage rolls' and all that 'tongue in cheek' humour our southern brethren are so noted for. It appears to be innocent, but hides a sneering and downright nasty superiority complex which is only one step away from this shite.

[Hermes]

Some years ago I translated a brochure for an exhibition in Berlin with photographs by Joakim Eskildsen who travelled to several countries visiting "Roma"-settlements.

These are some of the pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'd have been better taking soap than pictures.

[setreal]

To wash off the dark skin?