Legal advice

[Duff Man]

Morning all,

 

I'm wondering if any of the forum's great legal minds can offer a little advice on a matter I'm currently involved in, which is now at the stage of a court summons. Any help at all would be much appreciated.

 

Last year I started commuting by train for the first time in fucking ages. I'd been driving to work for about 5 years before that. The second day I travelled in, I was a little late getting to the station, and the train was already at the platform. There wasn't enough time to buy a ticket, so I ran towards the entrance, where two Arriva staff were stood. I asked them both if I could buy a ticket at the station I was travelling to, and was assured I could. They gestured me through and I got on the train.

 

I got to the station, and subsequently had my details taken for not purchasing a ticket, even after explaining that their own staff had instructed me to board the train without one. Apparently there is now a policy which says you must buy a ticket if you're travelling from a station that has ticket selling facilities. That's fine, but you can't have staff at those very stations telling people the exact opposite. The upshot is I have now been charged with "entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket to entitle travel:"

 

I feel properly wronged here, and would really like to fight them on it,  but obviously I don't have the resources they do, and would hate to end up with a whopping great legal bill at the end of it. If I accept the charge now, it's £150 and the case is dropped. But it's more the principle of the thing. It's basically a racket, and they're setting people up.

 

What I want to know is, do I have a leg to stand on? If I got a decent solicitor, what would my chances be of winning? I realise this is difficult to assess, but hopefully the legal types on here would be able to offer a slightly more informed estimation than I can.

 

Cheers

[Rico1304]

5 yrs hard time being bummed in the showers by Mr. Big (who's in with the wardens)

[Kloppite]

Morning all,

 

I'm wondering if any of the forum's great legal minds can offer a little advice on a matter I'm currently involved in, which is now at the stage of a court summons. Any help at all would be much appreciated.

 

Last year I started commuting by train for the first time in fucking ages. I'd been driving to work for about 5 years before that. The second day I travelled in, I was a little late getting to the station, and the train was already at the platform. There wasn't enough time to buy a ticket, so I ran towards the entrance, where two Arriva staff were stood. I asked them both if I could buy a ticket at the station I was travelling to, and was assured I could. They gestured me through and I got on the train.

 

I got to the station, and subsequently had my details taken for not purchasing a ticket, even after explaining that their own staff had instructed me to board the train without one. Apparently there is now a policy which says you must buy a ticket if you're travelling from a station that has ticket selling facilities. That's fine, but you can't have staff at those very stations telling people the exact opposite. The upshot is I have now been charged with "entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket to entitle travel:"

 

I feel properly wronged here, and would really like to fight them on it, but obviously I don't have the resources they do, and would hate to end up with a whopping great legal bill at the end of it. If I accept the charge now, it's £150 and the case is dropped. But it's more the principle of the thing. It's basically a racket, and they're setting people up.

 

What I want to know is, do I have a leg to stand on? If I got a decent solicitor, what would my chances be of winning? I realise this is difficult to assess, but hopefully the legal types on here would be able to offer a slightly more informed estimation than I can.

 

Cheers

Do what I done.

 

In 1999 I got caught by those inspectors who give you a 10 quid on the spot fine. I didn't have the ten quid so was taken to court. I got a phone call telling me I was in court the next day but told them it wasn't me someone had used my details. They said I could prove my innocence as it was on camera . I said it wasn't me cant go to court as I am in work so they will have to deal with it in my absence.

 

Never heard anything else about it.

[Duff Man]

Unfortunately I've already corresponded with them, so can't now say it was somebody else.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Just pay it.

 

You're claiming that the staff told you you could pay at the other end. I'm not doubting this, but I'm guessing that this is an excuse they've heard many times from people who had no intention of paying (which I'm in no way saying is you) and got caught out.

 

He who asserts must prove. Do you have any evidence of this discussion when you were told you could pay at your destination? CCTV? Names of the staff? Witness statements from them confirming your account? If not, it might just be viewed by the court/tribunal as a story they've heard loads of times before.

 

Plus, I'd imagine the court will look at the law before the word of Arriva staff members when looking at your obligation to pay. What rank were these staff? Did they have the necessary authority to permit you to board the train without payment? Did their word really trump your legal obligation to ensure you had a valid ticket before travelling? I'd imagine these are all questions the court will look at.

 

I'd really just pay it. Not sure if it would show up on your record etc if you lost the case or if you'd incur costs etc, but it's a risky stratergy when your case appears to rest on your word against there's and an unsubstantiated claim that you were told you could pay at the other end.

 

The same happened to me once, so I feel your pain. £150 seems steep though. Has it increased due to your unwillingness to pay?

[Duff Man]

Thanks for info, NT, useful stuff.

 

 

Just pay it.

You're claiming that the staff told you you could pay at the other end. I'm not doubting this, but I'm guessing that this is an excuse they've heard many times from people who had no intention of paying (which I'm in no way saying is you) and got caught out.

He who asserts must prove. Do you have any evidence of this discussion when you were told you could pay at your destination? CCTV? Names of the staff? Witness statements from them confirming your account? If not, it might just be viewed by the court/tribunal as a story they've heard loads of times before.

 

No, but the same guys are still stood at the platform gesturing ticket-less people on to the trains. I doubt they'd be prepared to testify for me, though,

as it would probably put their jobs in danger.

 

 

Plus, I'd imagine the court will look at the law before the word of Arriva staff members when looking at your obligation to pay. What rank were these staff? Did they have the necessary authority to permit you to board the train without payment? Did their word really trump your legal obligation to ensure you had a valid ticket before travelling? I'd imagine these are all questions the court will look at.

 

I'm pretty sure that's why they're put there, to ensure everyone has a ticket. But they're not doing that, they're doing the exact opposite.

 

 

I'd really just pay it. Not sure if it would show up on your record etc if you lost the case or if you'd incur costs etc, but it's a risky stratergy when your case appears to rest on your word against there's and an unsubstantiated claim that you were told you could pay at the other end.

The same happened to me once, so I feel your pain. £150 seems steep though. Has it increased due to your unwillingness to pay?

I agree about it being risky. That's what I'm trying to ascertain, really; just how risky it is. I really feel like they're just extorting people with the way they're behaving, and it's pretty fucking outrageous.

 

Re the amount, apparently that's pretty low. In some other areas of the country are being charged as much as a £1000. EDIT - and no, I haven't refused to pay, yet. I can admit to the charge, and if my plea is accepted the fine will be £150.

 

I've no problem with them adopting a policy like this, by the way, but all their staff have to be on message. Otherwise they're basically entrapping people.

[Duff Man]

I'm also a little worried that if I plead guilty, they'll try and impose a further fine. The wording is as follows:

 

If you inform the Clerk of the Court that you wish to plead guilty to the charge(s) of:

 

Entered a train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket to entitle travel:

 

Set out in the summons herewith, without appearing before the Court and the Court proceeds to hear and dispose of the case in your absence under section 12 of the Magistrates' Court Act 1980, the following Statement of Facts will be read out in open Court before the Court decides whether to accept your plea. The Court will not, unless it adjourns the case after convicting you and before sentencing you, permit any other statement to be made by or on behalf of the prosecutor with respect to any fact relating to the charge(s)

 

The fare avoided is £3.70 and compensation of this amount is claimed together with the sum of £150.00 towards the prosecution costs.

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I think the £150 is an offer to settle before court. I'd imagine that would be that and the proceedings would cease and no further fine will be sought.

 

If you go to court and plead guilty/get found guilty, as it's the Magistrates Court, a further punitive fine will very highly likely follow. It will be calculated on the attached basis.

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculator/

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Here's the magistrates court sentencing guidelines for the offence in question.

 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/railway-fare-evasion/

 

It's a Level 3 fine (if it goes to court, found/plead guilty) which I believe is approx. £1,000.

[Duff Man]

Cheers, NT. It's a summons so to me that says it's definitely going to court? There is no mention of fines in the letter I've been sent. I assume they're imposed by the court after it has been decided whether or not I'm guilty. Is that correct?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Cheers, NT. It's a summons so to me that says it's definitely going to court? There is no mention of fines in the letter I've been sent. I assume they're imposed by the court after it has been decided whether or not I'm guilty. Is that correct?

It is.

[Rico1304]

When you first get on the wing punch the biggest bloke you can find otherwise the sisters will make you their bitch.

[Duff Man]

It is.

 

Crikey. As I said, I feel completely wronged here. I was following the instructions of their own staff (Arriva's). It's outrageous, really.

[Kloppite]

Crikey. As I said, I feel completely wronged here. I was following the instructions of their own staff. It's outrageous, really.

You will have the opportunity to speak to a solicitor free of charge so you will be able to explain to him the situation and he will give you advice.

[Red74]

Crikey. As I said, I feel completely wronged here. I was following the instructions of their own staff (Arriva's). It's outrageous, really.

Stick to your guns mate and fight it. I was renewing my sons season ticket at the station the other month and it was taking the fella ages to get the tickets to print out correctly. There was a queue forming behind me who were getting a bit agitated and the fella serving me told them all to just get on the train and tell whoever asks that the train was already on the platform and the queue was too long to wait for a ticket, so it may not be as uncommon as people think.

[Kevin D]

Send them a letter explaining that they don't have the authority to sentence you, because Duff Man knows no king or queen, but the king in the North whose name is Stark.

[Duff Man]

You will have the opportunity to speak to a solicitor free of charge so you will be able to explain to him the situation and he will give you advice.

Yeah, beginning to look like it'd be pretty unwise not to speak to one.

 

 

Stick to your guns mate and fight it. I was renewing my sons season ticket at the station the other month and it was taking the fella ages to get the tickets to print out correctly. There was a queue forming behind me who were getting a bit agitated and the fella serving me told them all to just get on the train and tell whoever asks that the train was already on the platform and the queue was too long to wait for a ticket, so it may not be as uncommon as people think.

 

Having had a look around the web this morning, it seems like it's happening all over the country.

[Red74]

Yeah, beginning to look like it'd be pretty unwise not to speak to one.

 

 

 

 

Having had a look around the web this morning, it seems like it's happening all over the country.

Exactly, you wouldn't have done it if you hadn't been told it'd be ok. There must be a few forums out there with the proper advice, as if the only time I've been in a train station in 20 years and heard it said then I can't be the only person other than you. No fucking way would I be paying a £150 fine for a £3 fare tho. Totally disproportionate

[Captain Turdseye]

I thought they'd done away with the Springfield monorail after all the shit it caused last time.

[jimmycase]

They're really clamping down on this now with more than a couple of people fined 600 quid and a criminal records for having no ticket or rushing to catch the train. Its fucking diabolical because before you could pay on the train whether the station had ticket facilities or not. More than once Ive been told by station staff it was ok to get on the train because there was a massive queue in the booking window.

 

Unless you have the names of the staff who told you it was ok to board and witnesses (very unlikely I know) its going to be very difficult to defend. If I were you, Id reluctantly pony up the money. If you try and fight, you may get a bigger 'fine' and criminal record which just isnt worth it.

[Rico1304]

You only do two days.

[KMD7]

This would have been an ace Simon thread

[polymerpunkah]

 

No, but the same guys are still stood at the platform gesturing ticket-less people on to the trains. I doubt they'd be prepared to testify for me, though,

as it would probably put their jobs in danger.

 

If I were going to fight it, the first thing I'd be doing is getting footage of this.

 

And sound too, if I could.

 

Several days of it.

[G Richards]

Pay the fine and leave it. It's deeply unsatisfying, but less bad than a larger fine and possible record. 

 

Then again...

 

Another option might be to pay the fine and then go after them. Record examples of them doing this to other people, then you have some solid evidence to bring your own prosecution. Perhaps the whole thing will swing completely around and they will end up paying sizable costs and a hefty penalty to you, and even better, the dubious practice can be stopped and their dodgy habit of entrapping people will cease. 

[magicrat]