Rivalries aside, dot cotton's right, isnt he?

[ritchie]

Milan, Inter, Napoli, Sevilla, Atletico, Newcastle, Roma, Sunderland, Lazio, Dortmund have bigger stadiums than Juventus. So what?

Juventus with a lower wage bill than us and a typically lower transfer spend. Juventus have 2 European Cups to Milan's 7. Cheating aside (which explains their lack of success in Europe in comparison to their domination of Serie A over the years) they've always been very well run by the Agneli family but have never had massive matchgoing support. Massive nationwide fanbase but traditionally the second club in Turin.

 

Italy have lagged badly behind with stadium development themselves.

 

We got completely left behind by United in the 90s and early 2000s. Even ignoring the commercial stuff, it's the stadium where we really got left behind.

[ritchie]

If any reader didn't know which club you were talking about... they'd be forgiven for thinking it was Leeds or similar.

 

Things aren't as amazing as they once were at Liverpool, but it's really not as bad as half of you make out.

 

You've been at the very top of the world for a good period, and then had to endure an otherwise 'falrly successful' period, the very 'depths' of which took you down to 8th and your trophy haul was limited to 'just' 17 trophies including European Champions.

 

You don't know you're born.

That's like someone saying to Villa fans they don't know they're born because they've been in the top flight for decades while others haven't.

 

Without wishing to sound like Brendan Rodgers without hope (and expectancy) you're nothing. You're one of those moribund outfits just plodding along in the middle of the table every year. Or Everton. They were told to be grateful for the genius of David Moyes for a decade, even though they never had a prayer of winning anything.

 

But if we are going to just accept our lot as an also ran then 30 quid tickets all round please rather than the 59 quid a pop. Hull and co can charge us 20 quid and the top 4 the 50 bob.

[FanchesterCity]

That's like someone saying to Villa fans they don't know they're born because they've been in the top flight for decades while others haven't.

 

Without wishing to sound like Brendan Rodgers without hope (and expectancy) you're nothing. You're one of those moribund outfits just plodding along in the middle of the table every year. Or Everton. They were told to be grateful for the genius of David Moyes for a decade, even though they never had a prayer of winning anything.

 

But if we are going to just accept our lot as an also ran then 30 quid tickets all round please rather than the 59 quid a pop. Hull and co can charge us 20 quid and the top 4 the 50 bob.

 

I understand where you're coming from, and there's no right or wrong to either view, but essentially, you're coming 'down' from a position of being at the top, whilst most are still looking up and wondering what the hell you're moaning about... did you think it would last forever?

How many titles SHOULD you have won in the PL era and why? Why should you expect more? (rhetorical questions, not aimed at you!)

 

Someone drew a parallel with a fading movie star loosing her looks and wondering why she's not getting the parts any more, knowing her time has been and gone, but struggling to accept it. Obviously it's not a great parallel, but there are similarities. However, Liverpool are hardly dead and buried, and they can come back, unlike the movie star.

 

At the moment, it's not your time. It's been United's time for 25 years much to everybody's chagrin, and we don't know what the next 25 years will bring, but there's no divine right for anybody to be at the top.

 

You do still have hope don't you? It's just that your expectations are so incredibly high in many ways. You'll say they aren't, but you're livid after a few years of no trophies, or being runners up then 5th. I don't think it's a loser's mentality to be more realistic in accepting that the football landscape has changed (rightly or wrongly) and the competition's getting tougher.

 

Relative to Liverpool's expectations, things aren't good at all, but relative to the wider game, things are hardly terrible. It's a matter of perspective really I suppose.

 

You could never keep winning at the level you once did, so the question that arises from that is... what COULD you reasonably expect? 17 trophies in 25 years is (arguably) a fair expectation surely?

 

United may well have to face this very same issue (all being well) - a reign coming to an end, and then working out where they'll settle if / when others take over. Top 2? top 4? top 10?

 

If you asked most fans where their 'natural' position would be if the money disappeared, or they had a similar size stadium to rivals, or the same 'luck' - most would think their natural position in life is higher than their current one.

But there is no 'natural position' is there? it's a myth. We were 1st and now we are 2nd, you were the best in Europe and now you're not.

 

I suppose the issue is a subtle difference between a fan saying 'we want to be' vs 'we should be'. There is no 'should' (imo).

[General Dryness]

For the record, I've got a good handle on what's good and what's bad about Liverpool FC.

 

I just don't need to hear it from that fucking chud Neville. When I think of him, all I can think of is him scoring against us and running up to our supporters almost pulling the badge off his shirt and frothing at his deformed mouth. Cunt.

[Harry Squatter]

Great post. I totally agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Convenient to brand his greed as simply incompetence. Does this undeserved respect to him stems from the fact that he is local?

 

As I said on another topic, the difference with Juventus -a similar on many levels Club- is that the Agnelli family would never sell Juventus to Loan sharks in order to maximise their profits. They are too classy and perhaps too rich to do it.

 

Moores has no class.

 

 

 

 

Milan, Inter, Napoli, Sevilla, Atletico, Newcastle, Roma, Sunderland, Lazio, Dortmund have bigger stadiums than Juventus. So what? We suffer from low self esteem.

 

We lack ambition and leadership.

 

It is an embarrassment to have Ian Ayre as the Club's CEO.

 

It's not David Moores greed I am talking about, he basically ran the club on autopilot while he was in charge.

 

Building a shit Centenary Stand when Liverpool owned all the houses in the road behind Kemlyn Road.

 

Bringing in Gerard Houllier to work alongside Roy Evans rather than having the guts to move him on. A season wasted and lots of money.

 

Failing to build on the 5th European Cup win. By that I don't mean selling shirts etc, buying 2/3 players who would have gone straight into the team rather than spending virtually the same as any other season.

 

Dithering over a stadium move at a time when grounds were being built cheaply.

 

Having no real ambition or plan to move the club forward.

 

Deciding in 2007 that he had no money and never sounded anyone out with any serious money. He didnt check who the two cunts were because he had no idea how to use the Internet.

[Section_31]

For the record, I've got a good handle on what's good and what's bad about Liverpool FC.

 

I just don't need to hear it from that fucking chud Neville. When I think of him, all I can think of is him scoring against us and running up to our supporters almost pulling the badge off his shirt and frothing at his deformed mouth. Cunt.

Correct, even if it was Scholes or Irwin or some fuck saying it I wouldn't be as arsed, but Neville is in the same league as Ferguson and Crerand when it comes to pure manc biasaed cuntery.

 

Also, for the record, there's a difference between a shit team and a shit club.

 

Ajax are a great club, even though I've seen better footy at Sefton Park than I've seen in the Dutch league.

[Grinch]

What a load of shit.

 

We were within a whisker of the title a year ago. Poor investment of the Suarez money leaves us where we are. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Oh, and by the way United- welcome to the slippery slope that is being all righteous and delighted at NOT WINNING anything. Get used to it. Looking forward to the first Van Gaal meltdown when the pressure hits next year having spent shitloads of cash and more games.

 

Rodgers may be irksome when he faces the press and comes out with all the cliches in the wake of an embarrassing defeat. I have a feeling Van Gaal will shoot from the hip and be top drawer entertainment.

 

So fucking do one all the Neville sympathisers

 

Lets hope the club does there part, gets rid of Rodgers, doesn't cock up yet another manager appointment, spends wisely in the summer and then perhaps we can laugh at van Gaal's top drawer entertainment from a higher league position.  This season has been proper Evertonian stuff, making fun of their spending, results whilst our own club has been much worse in every department.

[Tony Moanero]

Another thing as well... I watched Gerrards last game with a few lads who support different teams and it was me with another red. The whole standing on the pitch with Carra and Redknapp was an absolute embarrassment.

Why?

[Curly]

Meaning people would rather have 4 or 5 threads about 'should rodgers stay or go' or a couple of threads whether this or that player should be ditched.

 

This place is so predictable at times. Take dryness' comments for example. Classic head up arse stuff you get on here. neville's a manc, yeah like we didnt know. Lots on fans I know who go to Anfield actually say how much they think he's one of the best pundits out there.

 

But never mind because we cant go listening to other opinions no matter how unpalettable they may be, eh?

 

The fact this isnt 'news' should be a massive wake up for some.

On the Sterling thread you were castigating him for being greedy and leaving, saying it was his doing and the club weren't in the wrong for any aspect. Now, you're posting articles from Gary Neville which points out what most have known for 10-15 years, using it to criticise the club and show understanding to Sterling leaving.

 

Are you honestly not on a wind up? If no, you're off your fucking tits.

[ratcatcher]

On the Sterling thread you were castigating him for being greedy and leaving, saying it was his doing and the club weren't in the wrong for any aspect. Now, you're posting articles from Gary Neville which points out what most have known for 10-15 years, using it to criticise the club and show understanding to Sterling leaving.

 

Are you honestly not on a wind up? If no, you're off your fucking tits.

 

You chat shit. Two separate threads with a tennuous link. But you'd rather have 4 threads about rodgers, 3 threads about ayre etc, etc.

 

Do you ever wonder why you're so fucking myopic?

[Paco]

If any reader didn't know which club you were talking about... they'd be forgiven for thinking it was Leeds or similar.

 

Things aren't as amazing as they once were at Liverpool, but it's really not as bad as half of you make out.

 

You've been at the very top of the world for a good period, and then had to endure an otherwise 'falrly successful' period, the very 'depths' of which took you down to 8th and your trophy haul was limited to 'just' 17 trophies including European Champions.

 

You don't know you're born.

its the fact that yet again we ve followed up a 2nd place finish in the league with a season of falling out of champions league places completely.

 

we never seem to learn from our mistakes in this league.

[ratcatcher]

its the fact that yet again we ve followed up a 2nd place finish in the league with a season of falling out of champions league places completely.

 

we never seem to learn from our mistakes in this league.

 

Or maybe football isnt quite so predictable after a once every so often shot?

[dennis tooth]

Putting the obvious rivalries aside, its a well constructed article and, he's right isnt he? Even now we have fans saying 'the Kop must remain the biggest stand' or 'the owners have to increase the size of the kop to be the biggest once the new Main Stand is complete.'

 

OK, the size of a stand doesnt affect performances on the pitch although Bill Shankly, god bless him, may say different, it is symptomatic of parts of the fanbase being more bothered about image or impression rather than what goes on, on the pitch.

 

If we or more correctly the current and future owners do not address the club's plight, we will just become the top club in the second tier of the Premier League.

 

I know some fans think its about selling the soul of the club to move on as needed and in some ways, I can empathise with that. But the club has in the past shown its prepared to be at the vanguard of change in football. Why have we suddenly become more resistent to making the changes needed to stay out there in the front?

 

Liverpool are stuck in the past and in danger of becoming a provincial club It is no surprise Raheem Sterling wants bigger and better things elsewhere - a proud club is failing to think beyond the confines of its city

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Liverpool's fans are a great asset to the club - but the club must find a way of embracing the future Photo: EPA

 

 

 

By Gary Neville

1:40PM BST 22 May 2015

 

558 Comments

 

 

Raheem Sterling has been in the eye of a storm this week following the revelation that he wants to leave Liverpool, but while there is a lot to be said about the way the story has developed, the harsh reality for the club is that this situation has been 15 years in the making.

 

When it comes to representing young players, the onus should be on protecting and supporting them; maintain your dignity and keep out of the headlines.

 

But has Raheem Sterling really let Liverpool down by suggesting he wants to leave or is he just a kid who wants to play football and win trophies?

 

 

 

 

There is a wider context to this story and it centres on how Liverpool have gone from being from one of Europe’s great superpowers to one which is in danger of becoming a provincial club.

The prospect of losing Sterling will be a major concern for everybody connected to the club, but the uncomfortable truth is that this is nothing new for Liverpool.

Just look back over the past 10-15 years and count the number of players who have left Anfield to pursue bigger and better things elsewhere.

Steve McManaman, Michael Owen, Javier Mascherano, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres and Luis Suarez have all gone.

^{Luis Suarez followed the route of so many other star players by leaving Liverpool}

Steven Gerrard is also being allowed to leave and, although his circumstances are different, there is no way in a million years that Liverpool should be allowing him to pack up and sign for LA Galaxy.

If you compare Liverpool to Manchester United over the same period of time, I can think of only one player - Cristiano Ronaldo - who left when he wanted to go, rather than when Sir Alex Ferguson wanted it to happen.

The comparison with United is valid because, regardless of the recent successes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester City, English football’s biggest, most historic, successful and best supported clubs are Liverpool and Manchester United.

If you travel to Ireland, Scandinavia, Malta, Thailand or wherever, the red shirts of Liverpool and United vastly outnumber those of every other club.

 

But while United have been happy to shout from the rooftops about how big they are and promote the legend and mythology of the club on a global scale for years Liverpool seem to have been stuck in their own mud.

Liverpool have begun to realise the commercial value of their brand on a worldwide basis, but they are years behind the biggest European clubs and, for me, their problems - which have been given a public face this week by the Sterling situation - are a direct result of that failure to think beyond the confines of their city.

Let me give you an example which highlights the difference between Liverpool and Manchester.

When Gerrard was preparing for his final game at Anfield last week, Jamie Carragher told me that whenever Steven goes out in Liverpool he simply cannot escape the attention or go about his business without being aware of the suffocating pressure that comes with being a Liverpool player in the city.

^{Anfield puts on a show for Steven Gerrard - but the pressures of playing there can be suffocating}

I spent almost 20 years playing for United and, like the rest of my team-mates at Old Trafford, could walk through Manchester quite easily without feeling as though I was living in a goldfish bowl.

I can’t think of any United or City players who would socialise or go for a meal in Liverpool, but I know of several Liverpool or Everton players who do exactly that in Manchester.

Liverpool has an incredibly community-minded mentality and in many ways that spirit, pride, passion and togetherness is one of the city's great strengths.

I joked with Jamie last Monday that, if Andy Burnham ends up as Labour leader and then Prime Minister, Jamie would be announced as Defence Minister, Kenny Dalglish Scottish Secretary, Ian Rush in charge of Wales, HS2 going direct to Liverpool, and the Trident nuclear deterrent protecting that city only.

It was a back-handed compliment about the unity of the city and how Liverpudlians will always defend themselves and fight passionately for their beliefs.

^{Steven Gerrard talks with fellow Liverpool legends Jamie Carragher and Jamie Redknapp}

It is a very emotional city and, again, in many ways this is a strength, but for Liverpool Football Club, all of those qualities have become weaknesses which have contributed to the position they now find themselves in with Sterling.

Take Anfield for example.

It is a wonderful old stadium, with a fantastic history and atmosphere, but when I drive towards it through the narrow streets which surround it, you just feel that it is in the wrong location and that it is another symbol of Liverpool looking to the past rather than the future.

^{The streets around Anfield are not suited to a modern Premier League stadium}

I have lost count of the times Liverpool have unveiled plans for a new stadium at Stanley Park, only to end up staying at Anfield because of the history of the place and the fervour of the Kop. In the early 90s when United made their move, Liverpool should have been on their coat tails.

But Anfield has held them back because every other big club - with the exception of Chelsea, who are owned by a Russian billionaire - has moved forward already, either by vastly increasing their current stadium or building a new one.

The emotional ties are given too much weight - that emotion played its part in the performance that led to Crystal Palace winning at Anfield in Gerrard’s farewell game last Saturday - and they are not helping Liverpool.

^{The emotions got to Liverpool's players on the occasion of Steven Gerrard's last home game}

Arsenal left Highbury, another famous, traditional old ground, to move into the 21st century at the Emirates, City left Maine Road for the Etihad and, in Europe, the clubs who jostled for European Cups with Liverpool in the 1980s and beyond have all put the past behind them and moved on.

Bayern Munich have a new stadium, Ajax have a new stadium, Juventus have a new stadium, while United, Real Madrid and Barcelona are playing in huge arenas which have moved with the times. With five European Cups it is these clubs that Liverpool should be neck and neck with.

Only now are Liverpool increasing the size of Anfield, but will it enable them to close the gap enough for them to compete with the top clubs and prevent players like Sterling wanting to leave?

^{Expansion work is underway at Anfield - but is it too late?}

Liverpool need a visionary with the ambition to take the club into the 21st century. They even decide transfers by Committee. How can that be an efficient, clean process with clear accountability?

Great football clubs like Liverpool will never go away, but they need to find a way to arrest the slide and make themselves a team that players want to play for rather than one they try to leave in search of bigger things elsewhere.

If Sterling leaves, then that will be another star player who has decided that Liverpool is a club that is unable to match their ambitions.

I might be the last person that Liverpool fans want to hear this from, an outsider who played for their biggest rivals, but these are things that need saying.

Did you know Telegraph Sport has a Liverpool Facebook page?

 

Despite my United past, I have enormous respect and admiration for Liverpool Football Club, but it is time to put the past aside.

If they can get it right and look beyond the confines and restrictions that lie within their own city, Liverpool can remain one of the world's most successful football clubs and Sterling and the others that have wanted to leave would be banging on the door to sign for them.

 

Bollocks to a stadium it didnt matter when we won in Istanbul. City got a new stadium is entirely a co incidence when youve got oil rich owners. Got a fucking top manager. Stay where we are fuck the corporates.

[joeyk]

Welcome home parades - 1999, Manchester- 500k. 2005, Liverpool - 1,000,000.

We'll be back.

[Bjornebye]

Gary Neville wears gas masks when his wife bums him. 

[stringvest]

Welcome home parades - 1999, Manchester- 500k. 2005, Liverpool - 1,000,000.

We'll be back.

 

desperate stuff joey, but I admire your pluck

[General Dryness]

Bollocks to a stadium it didnt matter when we won in Istanbul. City got a new stadium is entirely a co incidence when youve got oil rich owners. Got a fucking top manager. Stay where we are fuck the corporates.

 

Dennis mate, I know you're a maverick loose cannon and that. But when an article is the whole subject of the thread you're posting in, theres no need to quote the article.

 

I'm not that bothered, but my scroll wheel wants you garrotted. Think on lad.

[redinblack62]

.

[kirkbyred1]

 

I love anfield and im glad we re redeveloping it finally.

 

The emirates is an amazing place but it looks like an airport from the outside.

 

The thing about going to anfield up through the streets etc is that it should be part of the process of defeating teams. I d like to think a lot of teams will have lost the game before they get off the bus because of the claustrophobia but then again even if we d built stanley park you d still have to go through the same street

 

that and "the mythical liverpool way" is what's holding us back. We will start next season with Rodgers as manager cos it's not the liverpool way to call for managers heads. Well look We're this way has got us. 5-0 down to Stoke at half time and no tithe in 25 years

[Tony Moanero]

.

Agreed.

[Curly]

You chat shit. Two separate threads with a tennuous link. But you'd rather have 4 threads about rodgers, 3 threads about ayre etc, etc.

 

Do you ever wonder why you're so fucking myopic?

Your posts run round in circles, you don't stick to any of your points when they interlink with other points and you never answer questions. Just look at you ignoring Dennis Tooth's questioning on the Mike Gordon thread?

 

You do know myopic doesn't mean opposite to you by the way?