Is Klopp another Rodgers?

[Major Tom]

Is Setreal German for shithead?

[Section_31]

 

 

You won't get me, you're Ian Ayre, there are RULES for Ian Ayre. 

[Russ Atmosphere]

Klopp's team being a bit shit this year has almost put him in the running for the Liverpool job - Rodgers shitness having the opposite effect.

[setreal]

Is Setreal German for shithead?

 

Rough night, Major?

[ritchie]

Dortmund will finish 5th - or worse - in a two horse race.

 

Dortmund were one of 4 German teams in the CL knockouts this season (won their group) and Wolfsburg who've just spent £50m on Schurrle and De Bruyne weren't one of them.

 

People need to stop acting like the Bundesliga is the SPL or something. It's a top 3 European league and Dortmund's budget is often below the likes of Leverkusen and Wolfsburg who have outside investment and is not in the same league as Bayern's. By their budget and what their squad cost they should never have got to a CL final. Also no German team not called Bayern Munich have had any sustained succcess in Germany for decades because as soon as they win titles Bayern start buying up their best players and they fall away.

[setreal]

Is Setreal German for shithead?

 

Ah, I see. Apologies.

 

 

[cuppatea]

We finished ahead of Man Utd last season and they went and produced the 2nd biggest single window transfer outlay in the history of the sport (2nd only to the summer Real Madrid bought Ronaldo and Kaka). We finished ahead of Chelsea and they brought in 3 of the best players from the Spanish champions and another Spanish international who would walk into any side in the country. We finished ahead of Arsenal and they spent £35m on our number 1 transfer target, who has since set the league alight. There's only 1 team in Germany with that kind of financial power and Dortmund are light years behind them.

 

The difference between Germany and England is we have 4 financial juggernauts to contend with (all with more player pulling power than us), who will throw money at the problem any time they feel their place in the top 4 is under threat. In Germany a good transfer window can catapult you up the league and the teams around you generally lack the resources to do much about it. And all it takes for an unfancied side to win it is Bayern to under-perform.

[Russ Atmosphere]

We finished ahead of Man Utd last season and they went and produced the 2nd biggest single window transfer outlay in the history of the sport (2nd only to the summer Real Madrid bought Ronaldo and Kaka). We finished ahead of Chelsea and they brought in 3 of the best players from the Spanish champions and another Spanish international who would walk into any side in the country. We finished ahead of Arsenal and they spent £35m on our number 1 transfer target, who has since set the league alight. There's only 1 team in Germany with that kind of financial power and Dortmund are light years behind them.

 

The difference between Germany and England is we have 4 financial juggernauts to contend with (all with more player pulling power than us), who will throw money at the problem any time they feel their place in the top 4 is under threat. In Germany a good transfer window can catapult you up the league and the teams around you generally lack the resources to do much about it. And all it takes for an unfancied side to win it is Bayern to under-perform.

Where do we figure on that list?

[Lee909]

I know we have spent 215ml in three years

[cuppatea]

Where do we figure on that list?

 

5th. Although I'd say we're hamstrung slightly by the fact there are about a dozen clubs in Europe and 4 in England with more pulling power than us. Having a world class transfer kitty only gets you so far when no world class players are willing to come to you.

[Russ Atmosphere]

I know we have spent 215ml in three years

Which on the upside helped fund a title challenge and qualify for the Champions league, and on the downside could see us arrive back at roughly the same league position where Rodgers took over after leading the worst European campaign in the history of the club, being the first Liverpool manager in the modern era not to win a trophy in his first 3 years, and still with a large number of the players needing to be replaced because he doesn't like them.

[kalasoma]

We finished ahead of Man Utd last season and they went and produced the 2nd biggest single window transfer outlay in the history of the sport (2nd only to the summer Real Madrid bought Ronaldo and Kaka). We finished ahead of Chelsea and they brought in 3 of the best players from the Spanish champions and another Spanish international who would walk into any side in the country. We finished ahead of Arsenal and they spent £35m on our number 1 transfer target, who has since set the league alight. There's only 1 team in Germany with that kind of financial power and Dortmund are light years behind them.

 

The difference between Germany and England is we have 4 financial juggernauts to contend with (all with more player pulling power than us), who will throw money at the problem any time they feel their place in the top 4 is under threat. In Germany a good transfer window can catapult you up the league and the teams around you generally lack the resources to do much about it. And all it takes for an unfancied side to win it is Bayern to under-perform.

Are you suggesting that Dortmund took advantage of Bayern underperforming for 2 consecutive seasons?

[Lee909]

 

 

Having a world class transfer kitty only gets you so far when no world class players are willing to come to you.

 

 

Pay them and they will come

[ritchie]

We finished ahead of Man Utd last season and they went and produced the 2nd biggest single window transfer outlay in the history of the sport (2nd only to the summer Real Madrid bought Ronaldo and Kaka). We finished ahead of Chelsea and they brought in 3 of the best players from the Spanish champions and another Spanish international who would walk into any side in the country. We finished ahead of Arsenal and they spent £35m on our number 1 transfer target, who has since set the league alight. There's only 1 team in Germany with that kind of financial power and Dortmund are light years behind them.

 

The difference between Germany and England is we have 4 financial juggernauts to contend with (all with more player pulling power than us), who will throw money at the problem any time they feel their place in the top 4 is under threat. In Germany a good transfer window can catapult you up the league and the teams around you generally lack the resources to do much about it. And all it takes for an unfancied side to win it is Bayern to under-perform.

 

By the same token how many years would it take Dortmund to spend what Rodgers has? How much has Klopp spent in 7 years? Less than £215m Rodgers has spent in 3? He's also lost several of his best players in that time because Dortmund are not a big money club.

 

What's the excuse for being outplayed by the likes of Basle and Besiktas in Europe? Teams with fractions of our budget and Rodgers getting well out-thought by the likes of Billic and Sousa.

[JermainePennant]

Dortmund were one of 4 German teams in the CL knockouts this season (won their group) and Wolfsburg who've just spent £50m on Schurrle and De Bruyne weren't one of them.

 

People need to stop acting like the Bundesliga is the SPL or something. It's a top 3 European league and Dortmund's budget is often below the likes of Leverkusen and Wolfsburg who have outside investment and is not in the same league as Bayern's. By their budget and what their squad cost they should never have got to a CL final. Also no German team not called Bayern Munich have had any sustained succcess in Germany for decades because as soon as they win titles Bayern start buying up their best players and they fall away.

Yes the German league has got stronger in the past few years and what has happened to Dortmund during that period.

 

Reading one of the posts defending him it seems that for atleast three seasons Klopp has failed to replace key players leaving and the best one he lost was one that came from Dortmund youth system and was not a player he signed.

 

I had a look last night to see who they got past in the cl to get to the final and found that the great teams they got past were Malaga and shakter before beating a Madrid side that was doing shit in Europe for years.

 

Seeing as a lot of our fans put last season down to Suarez I wonder who they give credit to for that game considering Lewandoski scored 4 goals in one game.

 

This guy is far from the messiah that some are making out, Rafa to name one manager we could get pisses all over him and Klopp didn't fare to well when facing him.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcjijx0ywxo

[setreal]

Are you suggesting that Dortmund took advantage of Bayern underperforming for 2 consecutive seasons?

 

Definitely in the first season, in the course of which Van Gaal was sacked for underperforming. In the second season, Heynckes' return, Bayern had less issues but Dortmund were very strong. 

[ritchie]

Yes the German league has got stronger in the past few years and what has happened to Dortmund during that period.

 

Reading one of the posts defending him it seems that for atleast three seasons Klopp has failed to replace key players leaving and the best one he lost was one that came from Dortmund youth system and was not a player he signed.

 

I had a look last night to see who they got past in the cl to get to the final and found that the great teams they got past were Malaga and shakter before beating a Madrid side that was doing shit in Europe for years.

 

Seeing as a lot of our fans put last season down to Suarez I wonder who they give credit to for that game considering Lewandoski scored 4 goals in one game.

 

This guy is far from the messiah that some are making out, Rafa to name one manager we could get pisses all over him and Klopp didn't fare to well when facing him.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcjijx0ywxo

 

Real Madrid have made at least the semis in the last 5 seasons now and he knocked out Mourinho over two legs and beat them in the group stage as well (and totally outplayed Man City home and away). A similar Real Madrid team to the one that ripped us to shreds at Anfield with our much more expensively assembled squad than Dortmund.

 

They made a pigs ear out of replacing Lewandowski last summer and that set them back a lot in terms of goals and a player who was crucial to the way they play. Dortmund still probably spent less than 30 million gross in the summer so they've got no divine right to be second in the league when Wolfsburg can spend that on one player. Liverpool have no right to be top 4 either.

 

Is he the messiah? No.. But on the bracket below the top tier of managers for what he's achieved there (behind Guardiola, Mourinho, Simeone, Ancelotti). Rodgers is  tiers below that at this point in his career.  

[billypilgrimnz]

Seeing as we are apparently doomed to be also-rans no matter what, based purely on spending power and the league we are in, then obviously it makes no difference who our manager is. Seems like just as much of an argument to bin Rodgers as keep him, because....why the hell not? We don't stand a chance either way, so why not keep on cycling through the managers hoping that something magical happens?

[cuppatea]

By the same token how many years would it take Dortmund to spend what Rodgers has? How much has Klopp spent in 7 years? Less than £215m Rodgers has spent in 3? He's also lost several of his best players in that time because Dortmund are not a big money club.

 

What's the excuse for being outplayed by the likes of Basle and Besiktas in Europe? Teams with fractions of our budget and Rodgers getting well out-thought by the likes of Billic and Sousa.

 

Dortmund spent more than twice the amount of any club in Germany in the summer, bar Bayern, who they still outspent, but by a smaller margin. Obviously the figures pale in comparison to England but they still spent far more than we did, relative to the league they're in and are doing far worse than us despite that.

 

I have no idea why we were so shit in Europe, but England as a nation has been massively underperforming for the last few years, despite dwarfing every other league in Europe in terms of resources. I'd probably put it down to the inexperience of the players and the manager, along with whatever else causes Premier League teams to consistently lose in Europe to (on paper) vastly inferior opposition. Klopp's first Champions League campaign was also a disaster but then he reached the final in his 2nd. Hopefully Rodgers and the players have learned from the experience.

[Dr. J]

Seeing as we are apparently doomed to be also-rans no matter what, based purely on spending power and the league we are in, then obviously it makes no difference who our manager is. Seems like just as much of an argument to bin Rodgers as keep him, because....why the hell not? We don't stand a chance either way, so why not keep on cycling through the managers hoping that something magical happens?

 

A perfectly logical position to take. But then 'they' will say we're a sacking the manager club - so fucking what?

[Mr T]

Are there many left who want Rodgers to stay? From what I can tell it's mainly the forum contrarians who want him to remain - contrary for the majority naturally - plus the nutter that is JP.

 

Everything is said that needs to be said IMO and if people are genuinely arguing the toss over whether Klopp has a better pedigree than Rodgers then you know it's just debating for debatings sake that's being employed here and nothing more.

 

If there is even a sniff that we can land someone like Klopp then we must make everything possible for it to come off. A set of variables has come into play which gives us a good chance - we must try to grasp it with both hands unlike last year when we pissed the oportunity away.

[cuppatea]

Seeing as we are apparently doomed to be also-rans no matter what, based purely on spending power and the league we are in, then obviously it makes no difference who our manager is. Seems like just as much of an argument to bin Rodgers as keep him, because....why the hell not? We don't stand a chance either way, so why not keep on cycling through the managers hoping that something magical happens?

 

It's not impossible, just incredibly difficult, and since Rodgers has come closer than any other manager to breaking the Man Utd/Abramovich/Mansour dominance of the Premier League it might not be wise to bin him off after 1 underwhelming season.

[billypilgrimnz]

It's not impossible, just incredibly difficult, and since Rodgers has come closer than any other manager to breaking the Man Utd/Abramovich/Mansour dominance of the Premier League it might not be wise to bin him off after 1 underwhelming season.

 

Depends what you consider to be the outlier, doesn't it, given that he has only been here three years? And if someone were to consider him a mediocre manager, then their response to last season would naturally be that it is possible to challenge for the title on our spending, and all we need is a better manager to go all the way, no?

 

That's the stupidity of this entire debate - it's all predicated on whether you consider Rodgers to be a good manager or not, and everything else gets filtered in a way that preserves that original judgement, from his finishes in the league (suspensions, injuries, Suarez!), to the transfer activity (committee! Rodgers' veto!), to the ridiculousness of whether the German league is any good or not.

 

So what do we actually know? What is indisputably evidence of Rodgers' ability? I would argue (from the outside looking in) nothing except for team selection and in-game management. And that is hardly flattering, but is it enough to fully support him or call for his sacking?

 

God knows. 

[Boss]

Yes the German league has got stronger in the past few years and what has happened to Dortmund during that period.

 

Reading one of the posts defending him it seems that for atleast three seasons Klopp has failed to replace key players leaving and the best one he lost was one that came from Dortmund youth system and was not a player he signed.

 

I had a look last night to see who they got past in the cl to get to the final and found that the great teams they got past were Malaga and shakter before beating a Madrid side that was doing shit in Europe for years.

 

Seeing as a lot of our fans put last season down to Suarez I wonder who they give credit to for that game considering Lewandoski scored 4 goals in one game.

 

This guy is far from the messiah that some are making out, Rafa to name one manager we could get pisses all over him and Klopp didn't fare to well when facing him.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcjijx0ywxo

 

He did replace Kagawa with Reus though, Sahin with Gundogen and Gotze with Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan. The only one he failed to replace adequately was Lewandowski, but then again he didn't get any money from Bayern, it was a free transfer. 

[Xherdan]

Our absolute capitulation in the last few weeks has put a real question mark over Rodgers for me. As others have said, if Klopp is interested in taking over here then we should do it. He is an excellent candidate and more importantly, will help us bring in the type of player we require to move on this summer. Rodgers just doesnt have that attraction.