Scottish Independence, yay or nay?

[lifetime fan]

Frankie Boyle is debating independence with George Galloway at 7.45 on Sky News.

 

Galloway supports independence for Ireland, Palestine, Iraq ... every country except his own in fact. He's spent his whole career railing

against the Tories but wants us to accept more Tory governments we didn't vote for. Hopefully Frankie is well prepared and brings up Galloway's pussy cat impression at least once.

 

I hope he smacks that cunt Adam Boulton.

[Mook]

Not scaremongering, common sense.

 

In England, with the pound, the Bank of England has shown what it can do in a crisis.

 

Scotland will have no reserves, no contingency fund, and no track record. Of course it could put money aside, money that could be used for other things.

 

Some tough choices, and a dose of reality, face a yes vote.

 

There seems to be a sense that Alex has a dream, and that anyone who doesn't dream too is a spoilsport. But like all dreams, at some point you wake up.

Common sense to close offices where thousands of people work to move them to another country?

 

Ok then.

[xerxes]

Common sense to close offices where thousands of people work to move them to another country?Ok then.

Common sense to protect the savings of hundreds of thousands, and the jobs of all employees.

 

OK then.

[Mook]

Common sense to protect the savings of hundreds of thousands, and the jobs of all employees.

 

OK then.

And how much would that cost them?

[Sugar Ape]

Why wouldn't they move here? The majority of their business would be in the rest of the UK not an independant Scotland.

[Spy Bee]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope?CMP=twt_gu

 

Of all the bad arguments urging the Scots to vote no – and there are plenty – perhaps the worst is the demand that Scotland should remain in the union to save England from itself. Responses to my column last week suggest this wretched apron-strings argument has some traction among people who claim to belong to the left.

Consider what it entails: it asks a nation of 5.3 million to forgo independence to exempt a nation of 54 million from having to fight its own battles. In return for this self-denial, the five million must remain yoked to the dismal politics of cowardice and triangulation that cause the problems from which we ask them to save us.

“A UK without Scotland would be much less likely to elect any government of a progressive hue,” former Labour minister Brian Wilson claimed in the Guardian last week. We must combine against the “forces of privilege and reaction” (as he lines up with the Conservatives, Ukip, the Lib Dems, the banks, the corporations, almost all the rightwing columnists in Britain, and every UK newspaper except the Sunday Herald) – in the cause of “solidarity”.

There’s another New Labour weasel word to add to its lexicon (other examples include reform, which now means privatisation; and partnership, which means selling out to big business). Once solidarity meant making common cause with the exploited, the underpaid, the excluded. Now, to these cyborgs in suits, it means keeping faith with the banks, the corporate press, cuts, a tollbooth economy and market fundamentalism.

Here, to Wilson and his fellow flinchers, is what solidarity meant while they were in office. It meant voting for the Iraq war, for Trident, for identity cards, for 3,500 new criminal offences, including the criminalisation of most forms of peaceful protest. It meant being drafted in as political mercenaries to impose on the English policies to which the Scots were not subject, such as university top-up fees and foundation hospitals. It meant supporting every destructive and unjust proposition advanced by their leaders: the brood parasites who hatched in the Labour nest then flicked its dearest principles over the edge. It’s no surprise that the more the Scots see of their former Labour ministers, the more inclined they are to vote for independence.

So now Better Together has brought in Gordon Brown, scattering bribes in a desperate, last-ditch effort at containment. They must hope the Scots have forgotten that he boasted of setting “the lowest rate in the history of British corporation tax , the lowest rate of any major country in Europe and the lowest rate of any major industrialised country anywhere”. That he pledged to the City of London “in budget after budget, I want us to do even more to encourage the risk takers”. That, after 13 years of Labour government, the UK had higher levels of inequality than after 18 years of Tory government. That his government colluded in kidnapping and torture. That he helped cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands through his support for the illegal war on Iraq.

He roams through Scotland, still badged with blood, promising what he never delivered when he had the chance, this man who helped unravel the social safety net his predecessors wove; who marketised and dismembered public services; who enriched the wealthy and shafted the poor; who pledged money for Trident but failed to reverse the loss of social housing; whose private finance initiative planted a series of timebombs now exploding throughout the NHS and other public services; who greased and wheedled and slavered his way into the company of bankers and oligarchs while trampling over the working people he was elected to represent. This is the progressive Prester John who will ride to the rescue of the no campaign?

Where, in Scotland’s Labour party, are the Keir Hardies and Jimmy Reids of our time? Where is the vision, the inspiration, the hope? The shuffling, spineless little men who replaced these titans offer nothing but fear. Through fear, they seek to shove Scotland back into its box, as its people rebel against the dreary, closed future mapped out for them – and the rest of us – by the three main Westminster parties.

Sure, if Scotland becomes independent, all else being equal, Labour would lose 41 seats at Westminster and Tory majorities would become more likely. But all else need not be equal. Scottish independence can galvanise progressive movements across the rest of the UK. We’ll watch as the Scots engage in the transformative process of writing a constitution. We’ll see that a nation of these islands can live and – I hope – flourish with a fully elected legislature (no House of Lords), with a fair electoral system (proportional representation), and with a parliament in which only representatives of that nation can vote (no cross-border mercenaries).

Already, the myth of political apathy has been scotched by the tumultuous movement north of the border. As soon as something is worth voting for, people will queue into the night to add their names to the register. The low voter turnouts in Westminster elections reflect not an absence of interest but an absence of hope.

If Scotland becomes independent, it will be despite the efforts of almost the entire UK establishment. It will be because social media has defeated the corporate media. It will be a victory for citizens over the Westminster machine, for shoes over helicopters. It will show that a sufficiently inspiring idea can cut through bribes and blackmail, through threats and fear-mongering. That hope, marginalised at first, can spread across a nation, defying all attempts to suppress it. That you can be hated by the Daily Mail and still have a chance of winning.

If Labour has any political nous, any remaining flicker of courage, it will understand what this moment means. Instead of suppressing the forces of hope and inspiration, it would mobilise them. It would, for instance, pledge, in its manifesto, a referendum on drafting a written constitution for the rest of the UK.

It would understand that hope is the most dangerous of all political reagents. It can transform what appears to be a fixed polity, a fixed outcome, into something entirely different. It can summon up passion and purpose we never knew we possessed. If Scotland becomes independent, England – if only the potential were recognised – could also be transformed.

[Bobby Hundreds]

No one knows how money now works, its like quantum mechanics. They just make the shit up as they go along and hope it loosely fits some kind of current trend until,the next one begins. Scotland just make your own currency call it weejimmys tell them that one weejimmy can buy 10 English pounds so fucking suck on that. Tell them its backed by square inches of golf courses and whisky. Is right laird.

[Mook]

Why wouldn't they move here? The majority of their business would be in the rest of the UK not an independant Scotland.

Because of the cost and logistics involved.

[Sugar Ape]

Because of the cost and logistics involved.

 

Ok. So when you become independant RBS, based in Scotland, won't be able to guarantee the first 80 grand of peoples savings, as banks in the rest of the UK do, because the UK government obviously won't cover it as they are based in a different country. Since the vast majority of their business is done in the rest of the UK I think it's a good bet they would move here, the cost and logistics of that being a small problem compared to the bigger problem of people from the rest of the UK withdrawing their money and putting it in a bank in the UK.

 

Maybe Scotland could also guarantee to cover savings to the same amount but without a central bank I think that would be a struggle and massively expensive.

[xerxes]

And how much would that cost them?

Less than a run on their deposits ( which is already starting to happen) and them closing

[Mook]

Ok. So when you become independant RBS, based in Scotland, won't be able to guarantee the first 80 grand of peoples savings, as banks in the rest of the UK do, because the UK government obviously won't cover it as they are based in a different country. Since the vast majority of their business is done in the rest of the UK I think it's a good bet they would move here, the cost and logistics of that being a small problem compared to the bigger problem of people from the rest of the UK withdrawing their money and putting it in a bank in the UK.

 

Maybe Scotland could also guarantee to cover savings to the same amount but without a central bank I think that would be a struggle and massively expensive.

Fair enough, you think they'll move, I don't.

[Mook]

Less than a run on their deposits ( which is already starting to happen) and them closing

Any evidence of this other than what your mate said?

[xerxes]

Ok. So when you become independant RBS, based in Scotland, won't be able to guarantee the first 80 grand of peoples savings, as banks in the rest of the UK do, because the UK government obviously won't cover it as they are based in a different country. Since the vast majority of their business is done in the rest of the UK I think it's a good bet they would move here, the cost and logistics of that being a small problem compared to the bigger problem of people from the rest of the UK withdrawing their money and putting it in a bank in the UK.

 

Maybe Scotland could also guarantee to cover savings to the same amount but without a central bank I think that would be a struggle and massively expensive.

Good points, well made.

 

Of course Scotland could deal with it, but at a cost. And cost is not something that Alex likes to talk about.

 

I have no problem with Scotland choosing independence, but at the moment Salmond has been selling a dream. If there was a socio-economic vision, one which he laid out and said, "this is going to cost us, but it will be worth it" fair enough. But that hasn't happened.

[Sugar Ape]

Fair enough, you think they'll move, I don't.

 

As with everything with regards to independence no one can be certain until it happens. I think it's likely they will move south but you never know. Would a deal to keep the nukes up there in exchange for a currency union surprise anyone?

[Mook]

As with everything with regards to independence no one can be certain until it happens. I think it's likely they will move south but you never know. Would a deal to keep the nukes up there in exchange for a currency union surprise anyone?

It certainly wouldn't surprise me. There will be a good couple of years of deal making following next week's vote.

[xerxes]

Any evidence of this other than what your mate said?

You will have to ask your own people.

 

For obvious reasons, it would not be publicised, so you will have to either believe, or disbelieve it. Your call.

 

I just ask this question. If you banked with a Scottish Bank, would you leave it post the 20th there, with no central bank, no government guarantees, and no currency, or would you move your account to a UK one?

[Sugar Ape]

You will have to ask your own people.

 

For obvious reasons, it would not be publicised, so you will have to either believe, or disbelieve it. Your call.

 

I just ask this question. If you banked with a Scottish Bank, would you leave it post the 20th there, with no central bank, no government guarantees, and no currency, or would you move your account to a UK one?

 

The point isn't even whether you should do that but whether people will do that. You get heavy snow for a couple of days and every cunt clears the shops of bread and milk. Don't even get me started on a petrol ' crisis '. If people think there is even a 1% chance their money is unsafe they'll panic and move it.

[lifetime fan]

Frankie Boyle is debating independence with George Galloway at 7.45 on Sky News.

 

Galloway supports independence for Ireland, Palestine, Iraq ... every country except his own in fact. He's spent his whole career railing

against the Tories but wants us to accept more Tory governments we didn't vote for. Hopefully Frankie is well prepared and brings up Galloway's pussy cat impression at least once.

 

 

Where did you hear this? They've not been on yet and if I've watched half hour of Adam Boulton for no reason I'm not going to be happy.

 

In fact I'd be negging sad.

[xerxes]

As with everything with regards to independence no one can be certain until it happens. I think it's likely they will move south but you never know. Would a deal to keep the nukes up there in exchange for a currency union surprise anyone?

It's an interesting call.

 

Brown built the aircraft carriers in Scotland in a piece of shameless vote getting. Economically Scotland needs Faslane. Plymouth would happily take the inward investment.

 

But I just wonder whether it might provide an excuse to do away with it altogether, saving the UK taxpayer a fortune AND costing Scotland economically?

[Mook]

You will have to ask your own people.

 

For obvious reasons, it would not be publicised, so you will have to either believe, or disbelieve it. Your call.

 

I just ask this question. If you banked with a Scottish Bank, would you leave it post the 20th there, with no central bank, no government guarantees, and no currency, or would you move your account to a UK one?

My brother works at RBS and hasn't heard anything about all these bank accounts closing.

 

As for my money, it's with the Bank of Scotland and will be staying there.

[Jairzinho]

Plymouth certainly needs it.

[xerxes]

The point isn't even whether you should do that but whether people will do that. You get heavy snow for a couple of days and every cunt clears the shops of bread and milk. Don't even get me started on a petrol ' crisis '. If people think there is even a 1% chance their money is unsafe they'll panic and move it.

I think there is more than a 1% chance that deposits will be vulnerable, not of being wiped out, but of being vulnerable. Without the Bank of England who knows what a Scottish Pound is worth?

[Sugar Ape]

Where did you hear this? They've not been on yet and if I've watched half hour of Adam Boulton for no reason I'm not going to be happy.

 

In fact I'd be negging sad.

 

Same here, bro. I've switched Suits off and been watching this shite for ages now.

[xerxes]

My brother works at RBS and hasn't heard anything about all these bank accounts closing.As for my money, it's with the Bank of Scotland and will be staying there.

But how do you know what that money will be worth in the event of a yes?

[Sugar Ape]

On now.

 

George Galloway @georgegalloway  ·  12m

Coming up on @SkyNews now