British Jobs For British Workers?

[Section_31]

Those words coming back to haunt Brown now, as it was pointed out to him at the time - that would actually be, erm, illegal!

 

2.5m people striking in France at the moment too, could this be the end of Globalisation and the beginning of protectionism? Or something more sinister?

 

As history shows, when people are afraid - the right tends to benefit.

 

 

More than 1,400 workers in Scotland have been taking strike action as part of an escalating UK-wide dispute over using foreign labour.

 

About 300 workers at the crude oil refinery at Grangemouth walked out, while contractors at three power stations also downed tools.

 

The unofficial action spread to seven sites across Scotland.

 

The dispute began after bosses at the Lindsey oil refinery in England brought in Italian and Portuguese contractors.

 

Unions said the jobs should have gone to British workers.

 

First Minister Alex Salmond urged those taking part in the action to return to work once they had made their point.

 

He said: "Obviously workers are angry about what's been happening in a plant in England.

 

"I'm hoping that as soon as they have protested they will get back to work.

 

"At times like these, it is really important that nobody does anything that jeopardises any jobs whatsoever."

 

In addition to the workers striking at Grangemouth's Ineos plant, about 500 have also walked out at Scottish Power stations in Longannet in Fife and Cockenzie in East Lothian.

 

The company said the walkout did not affect operations at either of the sites and that it was meeting senior members of all contractors to resolve the situation as quickly as possible.

 

Send us your commentsShell said about 180 contractors at the St Fergus gas terminal at Peterhead had stopped work, while at British Energy's Torness facility about 80 workers have downed tools.

 

According to ExxonMobil, 40 workers contracted to Deborah Services Limited (DSL) have gone on strike at its ethylene plant at Mossmorran in Fife, along with colleagues at the Shell plant at Mossmorran.

 

The firm said the action was not impacting upon safety at the facility.

 

Speaking from Grangemouth, Bobby Buirds of the Unite union, said: "The argument is not against foreign workers, it's against foreign companies discriminating against British labour.

 

"If the job of these mechanical contractors at Ineos finishes and they try and get jobs down south, the jobs are already occupied by foreign labour and their opportunities are decreasing.

 

"This is a fight for work. It is a fight for the right to work in our own country. It is not a racist argument at all."

 

 

A spokesman for Ineos, which runs the Grangemouth plant, said those involved in the walkout were NAECI (National Agreement for Engineering and Construction Industry) workers.

 

In a statement, he said: "The plants at Grangemouth continue to operate normally and contractor safety cover has been agreed.

 

"We are disappointed that the NAECI contactor population have chosen to walk out today, especially as Ineos at Grangemouth has always worked with the trade unions to ensure that local and UK labour are utilised on site.

 

"And, on the few occasions when it has been necessary, we have always agreed up front with the workforce the use of foreign labour as a top-up."

 

The Grangemouth walkout included about 100 workers with contractors employed by BP.

 

They work at the Kinneil terminal - part of the Grangemouth complex where North Sea oil from the Forties pipeline system comes ashore.

 

A BP spokesman said: "The workers are not involved in day-to-day operations and the Forties pipeline system will continue to operate as normal."

[Catch22]

If the Portugese & Italian workers weren't better they would not be hired

 

Protectionism is inefficient, destructive to our lifestyles (should wine be banned in Scotland or whisky in Italy?) & racist.

 

Britain has been spinning off into a hard left paradise for a few months now which is why we are so pathetically regarded in the world that Germans are able to buy Mercedes in Mayfair as it is cheaper than where they are made & Japanese girls are fighting over designer handbags in Selfridges.

 

Brown may get kicks out of ideals of Presbyterianism sacrifice but not many others want to live in his vision of East Germany circa 1976

[ratcatcher]

If the Portugese & Italian workers weren't better they would not be hired

 

Dont talk shit and especially dont talk about stuff you dont know. It isnt a question about being better, its a question of 'how cheap.'

 

Im sick of seeing british jobs sold down the river on the back of cost. Yeah, let's chuck all our workers on the dole then we have to pay more in taxes to support non productive workers while parts of europe and the far east gets our money! How stupid is that?

 

I work in an industry where about 8 years ago, lots of work was ahem 'outsourced' to india and asia on the ground of cost. Only trouble was, the work they did was mostly so shit, it had to be re worked in the UK so the overall cost was higher than the inital outsourcing cost.

 

Some companies, not wanting to acknowledge their mistakes, just made british workers use the shit products of this cheap labour. With the net result loads of british customers complained of unsatisfactory service etc.

 

Wake up and open your eyes!

[SammyAftershave]

If the Portugese & Italian workers weren't better they would not be hired

 

I do believe the word you are looking for is 'Cheaper'. You fecking numbskull!

[Mr.SB]

I do believe the word you are looking for is 'Cheaper'. You fecking numbskull!

 

Hysterical reply, as 'better' is certainly not the wrong word to use. For the capitalist, cheaper (input costs) is also better, (ceteris paribus).

 

*Disclaimer: I am not a communist or an anti-capitalist.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Mr.SB

[Liverpool lad]

Hysterical reply, as 'better' is certainly not the wrong word to use. For the capitalist, cheaper (input costs) is also better, (ceteris paribus).

 

*Disclaimer: I am not a communist or an anti-capitalist.

 

 

Well said

[Mr.SB]

Dont talk shit and especially dont talk about stuff you dont know. It isnt a question about being better, its a question of 'how cheap.'

 

Im sick of seeing british jobs sold down the river on the back of cost. Yeah, let's chuck all our workers on the dole then we have to pay more in taxes to support non productive workers while parts of europe and the far east gets our money! How stupid is that?

 

I work in an industry where about 8 years ago, lots of work was ahem 'outsourced' to india and asia on the ground of cost. Only trouble was, the work they did was mostly so shit, it had to be re worked in the UK so the overall cost was higher than the inital outsourcing cost.

 

Some companies, not wanting to acknowledge their mistakes, just made british workers use the shit products of this cheap labour. With the net result loads of british customers complained of unsatisfactory service etc.

 

Wake up and open your eyes!

 

Once again, to the employer, cheaper is also better, all things remaining constant. Of course when you bring in quality of work, it becomes a lot more complicated. Like you pointed out, quality can affect how much 'better' the input is, thus a cheaper alternative may end up costing more in the end. Quality is also a lot more subjective than price, so while you may slag off Indian labour as 'shit', I'm sure other examples can point to British labour as 'shit'. More importantly, since quality of inputs and especially labour seldom manifest in the short term, the effects are not felt till much later in the medium to long term (like you pointed out as well).

 

Unfortunately, the capitalist is answerable to his shareholders who demand quick returns and reserve judgement on investment-worthiness based on quantitative statistics such as profits, revenues and cost. Hence, where quality of labour can be argued, cost of labour is the dominant statistic used. Thus it is not surprising why so many companies choose the 'better' option of cheaper labour.

[Anny Road]

I do have to laugh at the notion of us needing to import SKILLED contractors from Portugal and Italy.

[Mr.SB]

I do have to laugh at the notion of us needing to import SKILLED contractors from Portugal and Italy.

 

I've just read that five UK and two European contractors responded to the tender offer from Total (a French company by the way). Is it surprising that they chose the cheapest option though? Strange that this incident has precipitated the protest as actually, no jobs were lost in that no redundencies were made among the local hires.

[Catch22]

Dont talk shit and especially dont talk about stuff you dont know. It isnt a question about being better, its a question of 'how cheap.'

 

Im sick of seeing british jobs sold down the river on the back of cost. Yeah, let's chuck all our workers on the dole then we have to pay more in taxes to support non productive workers while parts of europe and the far east gets our money! How stupid is that?

 

I work in an industry where about 8 years ago, lots of work was ahem 'outsourced' to india and asia on the ground of cost. Only trouble was, the work they did was mostly so shit, it had to be re worked in the UK so the overall cost was higher than the inital outsourcing cost.

 

Some companies, not wanting to acknowledge their mistakes, just made british workers use the shit products of this cheap labour. With the net result loads of british customers complained of unsatisfactory service etc.

 

Wake up and open your eyes!

 

But in your case, the Britsh workers were better so will get their jobs back...

 

Trade is great. You buy foreign goods that we can't make & foreigners buy our goods.

[Anny Road]

I can understand a skilled engineering firm from the US or Germany coming in to a place to oversee a project and hiring locally but a lot of these foreign lads will be labourers. I'm not knocking them good luck to them.

 

Its just a bit shit is it not.

[Catch22]

Hysterical reply, as 'better' is certainly not the wrong word to use. For the capitalist, cheaper (input costs) is also better, (ceteris paribus).

 

*Disclaimer: I am not a communist or an anti-capitalist.

 

"Better" is what the consumer thinks is better.

 

That means all of us.

 

We all buy stuff that is shit but cheap sometimes & we all sometime buy stuff that is expensive but good.

 

Everytime you buy as bottle of red wine you are supporting a foreign worker.

Is that wrong? Of course not. Do you want 1000's of Kentish hops growers demonstrating outside your flat as your open a bottle of Spanish red with a bird beacuse the decision process (to employ foreign labour) is exactly the same as this company took

[Mr.SB]

I can understand a skilled engineering firm from the US or Germany coming in to a place to oversee a project and hiring locally but a lot of these foreign lads will be labourers. I'm not knocking them good luck to them.

 

Its just a bit shit is it not.

 

It does beg the question how an Italian firm can bring in Italians, house them and still be cheaper than the British tenders. I think the Italians are probably getting severely underpaid and probably will have a rough time out here. Some ethical questions and a large gray area exists in the EU freedom-of-labour system.

[Section_31]

I think Catch22 takes a lot of unfair shit on this forum of late, even though I don't agree with some of his views, he's a very very sharp cat and a credit to the forum. Let's try and keep this civil eh lads??

[Mr.SB]

"Better" is what the consumer thinks is better.

 

That means all of us.

 

We all buy stuff that is shit but cheap sometimes & we all sometime buy stuff that is expensive but good.

 

Everytime you buy as bottle of red wine you are supporting a foreign worker.

Is that wrong? Of course not. Do you want 1000's of Kentish hops growers demonstrating outside your flat as your open a bottle of Spanish red with a bird beacuse the decision process (to employ foreign labour) is exactly the same as this company took

 

I think you are confusing the supply curve and the demand curve factors. As consumers, we do not consider the cost of labour or the cost of raw materials, all we consider is the product and the price we would pay for it. Since labour is an input cost, how much 'better' is judged by the producer and not the consumer.

[Catch22]

I think you are confusing the supply curve and the demand curve factors. As consumers, we do not consider the cost of labour or the cost of raw materials, all we consider is the product and the price we would pay for it. Since labour is an input cost, how much 'better' is judged by the producer and not the consumer.

 

 

Yes but we pay for quality.

 

Ratcatcher's example had the service collapsing. If that happens we'll go elsewhere.

 

Wine & olive oil are trivial items but 95% of this forum love them... they didn't come from British workers... That isn't knocking beer & butter because we all love them as well.

Trade,trade & more trade

[Section_31]

It does beg the question how an Italian firm can bring in Italians, house them and still be cheaper than the British tenders. I think the Italians are probably getting severely underpaid and probably will have a rough time out here. Some ethical questions and a large gray area exists in the EU freedom-of-labour system.

 

They're being housed en mass in what looks to me like a giant barge according to the pictures on Sky News.

 

Tell you what pisses me off, and this is just a symptom of an issue which is now reaching fever pitch since the 'downturn', but the notion that having a stable and well paid workforce, with benefits and rights, is somehow counter-productive, and that it gets in the way of progress.

 

It's a stick which people often use to beat the public sector with (although admittedly there is a great deal of waste there), and the myth is propagated that if business doesn't constantly hunt for cheaper and faster ways of doing something - that they will collapse and the world will end - and that as the workforce which is constantly shat on, we should almost forgive them for playing by these rules and wish them bona fortuna as they leave us in the gutter and head to Shanghai in search of slave labour and maximised profits.

 

Horseshit.

 

There can be a balance, you can have firms which still make a profit but still look after their people. Seriously, why can't a firm make £120m but keep it's workers in humane conditions of employment (and I'd class jobs security as humane), why does it have to drive profits up to £121m at the expense of that workforce - and good service in many cases - Indian call centres being a case in point.

[Strontium]

If the Portugese & Italian workers weren't better they would not be hired

 

 

Quite.

 

In this instance, competition within the European common market has delivered a better value service. British workers have no divine right to British jobs, just as Italian workers have no divine right to Italian jobs - and British firms can (and do) tender for jobs abroad, and sometimes even get them (skills shortage notwithstanding).

 

If British workers are upset by this, they can always get the new skills necessary to help them succeed in the marketplace. We have some of the best education facilities in the world here.

 

 

Dont talk shit and especially dont talk about stuff you dont know. It isnt a question about being better, its a question of 'how cheap.'

 

I do believe the word you are looking for is 'Cheaper'. You fecking numbskull!

 

 

Oh dear. Looks like you two owe Catch an apology:

 

[Total] added that staff employed by the Italian company IREM would be paid the same as existing contractors on the project.

 

 

Not cheaper. Better.

[Unrighteous]

Protectionism is fucking stupid, but outsourcing everything is fucking stupid as well.

 

In the middle? It'd be a good one.

[Strontium]

On second thoughts, maybe "British jobs for British workers" is the way forward after all. These continentals stealing our jobs - who do they think they are?

 

Let's therefore (if you'll forgive me the f***b*** reference) sell Fernando Torres, Xabi Alonso and Pepe Reina and buy Kevin Davies, Joey Barton and Paul Robinson at the earliest opportunity.

[Unrighteous]

On second thoughts, maybe "British jobs for British workers" is the way forward after all. These continentals stealing our jobs - who do they think they are?

 

Let's therefore (if you'll forgive me the f***b*** reference) sell Fernando Torres, Xabi Alonso and Pepe Reina and buy Kevin Davies, Joey Barton and Paul Robinson at the earliest opportunity.

 

That's actually a very good way to look at it, to be honest, because it's fairly assinine to expect to have the 'best' from a pool as small as Britain's population compared to a pool the size of Europe's population, just like in *****all.

[RobbieOR]

I think Catch22 takes a lot of unfair shit on this forum of late, even though I don't agree with some of his views, he's a very very sharp cat and a credit to the forum. Let's try and keep this civil eh lads??

 

Not everyone sees that way Mark. A shame i know!

[Mr.SB]

I think Catch22 takes a lot of unfair shit on this forum of late, even though I don't agree with some of his views, he's a very very sharp cat and a credit to the forum. Let's try and keep this civil eh lads??

 

He's in a predicament though eh? He can't post without getting slated but if he doesn't post, he can't correct his detractors. He's in such a pickle.. a strange position, I just can't describe the situation he's in...

[Anny Road]

Daily Mail Socialism. Ace.

[Unrighteous]

You'll be getting fucked off soon, i'll drop you at the airport.

 

Nice one! Thanks lad... Save me the train fare. ;)