Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Bjornebye]

Just now, A Red said:

But they dont know what they are voting for in a GE, only that Labour are neutral about brexit but could change to remain or leave in a referendum. Its not as honest as the Lib Dems or tories

He has already said he will go and get the best deal possible then present it to the public in a referendum! 

[A Red]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

He has already said he will go and get the best deal possible then present it to the public in a referendum! 

But not stating what they might back in the referendum. As I said we know for sure what the lib dems and tories will fight for. Thats being up front with the voters, Labour are not

[moof]

15 minutes ago, A Red said:

At the risk of being a boring twat

 

 

Agreed

[Scooby Dudek]

21 minutes ago, A Red said:

Ok, fair enough, i'll try to re-word my question.

 

Labours policy on brexit for the GE was decided at the last conference. Labours policy at a referendum will be decided at a special conference later on. I understand that. What I dont understand is why. Why wasnt it all agreed at the last conference, why could there be any difference between what Labour believes in a GE or a referendum? I'm not asking you to tell me what you think conference thinks I'm asking you can you justify it as a good policy?

 

You said, because it doesnt need to be decided yet. That makes no sense to me, and it cant make any sense to you as you were under the belief that conference had already decided to be neutral for both. 

 

At the risk of being a boring twat i will recap why i reckon labour has taken this route. It is trying to keep the labour leave voters happy so that their GE votes arent lost and the remain referendum voters/members happy that the party will officially back remain in the referendum. The leave voters in Labour seats, primarily in the north, will have then served their purpose.

 

 

Until they negotiate a new deal, they do not know what it is. 

The EU may say, we have agreed a deal, that is it (as they are doing now), in that case Labour would back remain as they think the deal is crap.

 

The policy, is get the best deal they can negotiate and then decide on the deal/remain/neutral. You can't decide on how good/bad the deal is until you know what the deal is. 

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Until they negotiate a new deal, they do not know what it is. 

The EU may say, we have agreed a deal, that is it (as they are doing now), it that case Labour would back remain as they think the deal is crap.

 

The policy, is get the best deal they can negotiate and then decide on the deal/remain/neutral. 

He isn't getting it. 

[Scooby Dudek]

As I've said before, to me it is exactly the same as the Tory position, some have said no matter the deal Johnson gets we will not back it (in this case in favour of no deal).

The difference being the ERG are lying in saying they want a deal, they don't and never have and the media obviously don't get these people on and ask them to give an example of a deal they would except and then call them out. 

 

 

[Rico1304]

19 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

He has already said he will go and get the best deal possible then present it to the public in a referendum! 

How can he promise that? It’s impossible to say without knowledge of the other sides position. He could get a good deal, a better deal that the Tories, but he can’t say it’d be the best deal possible. 

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

As I've said before, to me it is exactly the same as the Tory position, some have said no matter the deal Johnson gets we will not back it (in this case in favour of no deal).

The difference being the ERG are lying in saying they want a deal, they don't and never have and the media obviously don't get these people on and ask them to give an example of a deal they would except and then call them out. 

 

 

Johnson was asked explicitly to give examples of the deal he wants and he completely ignored the question and just spouted off again about "Delivering Brexit". They know they can't get a deal. 

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

How can he promise that? It’s impossible to say without knowledge of the other sides position. He could get a good deal, a better deal that the Tories, but he can’t say it’d be the best deal possible. 

He is saying he will go and get the best deal he can deliver. It isn't up to him what that deal is of-course but what he is saying is right. He will do his best. No chance May or Johnson have or ever would have done the same. 

 

Johnson clearly sees the EU as 'Johnny Foreigner" and thinks they will bend over for him and what suits the Tory party (not the people). That or No Deal is what they wanted all along. 

[A Red]

11 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Until they negotiate a new deal, they do not know what it is. 

The EU may say, we have agreed a deal, that is it (as they are doing now), in that case Labour would back remain as they think the deal is crap.

 

The policy, is get the best deal they can negotiate and then decide on the deal/remain/neutral. You can't decide on how good/bad the deal is until you know what the deal is. 

I see what you are saying. However, if you want to remain, as the vast majority of Labour members do, there is no type of remotely realistic deal that you can back, it will be crap. Therefore, leave is never going to be an option and following on from your first paragraph Labour would back remain. They already know this (in my opinion)

 

There is still the possibility of neutral but they cant say, "we cant negotiate a deal so therefore will stay neutral", its the one way to piss off each side of the divide, it has to be remain.

[A Red]

19 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

He isn't getting it. 

I think I do.

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, A Red said:

I see what you are saying. However, if you want to remain, as the vast majority of Labour members do, there is no type of remotely realistic deal that you can back, it will be crap. Therefore, leave is never going to be an option and following on from your first paragraph Labour would back remain. They already know this (in my opinion)

 

There is still the possibility of neutral but they cant say, "we cant negotiate a deal so therefore will stay neutral", its the one way to piss off each side of the divide, it has to be remain.

But they are saying they will go to another public vote! It doesn't matter what they want as a party if they fulfil the promise of going to the EU to properly negotiate which I think they will. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, A Red said:

I think I do.

Hope so. 

[A Red]

25 minutes ago, moof said:

Agreed

Go on, try to engage me, show me where I'm wrong, explain to me why decisions on the policy on brexit have only been half made. Dont just be lazy and play to the crowd

[A Red]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

But they are saying they will go to another public vote! It doesn't matter what they want as a party if they fulfil the promise of going to the EU to properly negotiate which I think they will. 

Yes they will try to negotiate a deal. There is no possible realistic deal that could satisfy a remainer. You're a remainer, what deal would make you want to leave? Realistic remember.

 

Therefore (fucking boring I know) they have to take one of the other 2 options as i stated above

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, A Red said:

Yes they will try to negotiate a deal. There is no possible realistic deal that could satisfy a remainer. You're a remainer, what deal would make you want to leave? Realistic remember.

 

Therefore (fucking boring I know) they have to take one of the other 2 options as i stated above

I personally wouldn't be satisfied with any leave deal. I think it is ridiculous to even consider it. 

 

They don't. 

 

Would you be satisfied with No Deal? 

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, A Red said:

There is no possible realistic deal that could satisfy a remainer. You're a remainer, what deal would make you want to leave?

Nor should there be.

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

I personally wouldn't be satisfied with any leave deal. I think it is ridiculous to even consider it. 

 

They don't. 

 

 

They?? I thought they was you?

[A Red]

4 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I personally wouldn't be satisfied with any leave deal. I think it is ridiculous to even consider it. 

 

They don't. 

 

Would you be satisfied with No Deal? 

I'm talking about remainers particularly labour members, sorry, who do you mean? 

 

No I wouldnt be satisfied with no deal.

[Bjornebye]

They meaning Labour having to take one of the options you posted 

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

They meaning Labour having to take one of the options you posted 

There are only 3 options. What likelihood is there, in your opinion, of labour supporting leave (bearing in mind no deal satisfies a remainer)? 

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, A Red said:

There are only 3 options. What likelihood is there, in your opinion, of labour supporting leave (bearing in mind no deal satisfies a remainer)? 

They will not support leave with No Deal. That has never been any different 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

When you see shit like this you know that Johnson probably went too far tonight... 

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, A Red said:

Ok, fair enough, i'll try to re-word my question.

 

Labours policy on brexit for the GE was decided at the last conference. Labours policy at a referendum will be decided at a special conference later on. I understand that. What I dont understand is why. Why wasnt it all agreed at the last conference, why could there be any difference between what Labour believes in a GE or a referendum? I'm not asking you to tell me what you think conference thinks I'm asking you can you justify it as a good policy?

 

You said, because it doesnt need to be decided yet. That makes no sense to me, and it cant make any sense to you as you were under the belief that conference had already decided to be neutral for both. 

 

At the risk of being a boring twat i will recap why i reckon labour has taken this route. It is trying to keep the labour leave voters happy so that their GE votes arent lost and the remain referendum voters/members happy that the party will officially back remain in the referendum. The leave voters in Labour seats, primarily in the north, will have then served their purpose.

 

As I understand it (and I could be wrong) the special conference will take place between agreeing the deal and holding the referendum. In other words, the decision of whether or not to campaign to leave on the terms of Labour’s deal won't be taken until the details of that deal are known.  Surely that's just sensible, isn’t it?

 

If they had taken the decision at this week's conference that they were going to campaign to remain, then there is no incentive for either Labour or EU negotiators to even try to reach a good deal. In fact, there would be an incentive to reach a shit deal, as it would be easier to campaign against. 

 

Conversely, if they had taken the decision to campaign to leave, then the EU negotiators would have them over a barrel: they could offer any old shit, knowing that Labour were committed to accepting it and campaigning for it.

 

If the negotiations with the EU are to be in good faith, they need to take place with both parties open to the possibility of the UK either leaving or remaining. In other words, Labour should go into the negotiations with a neutral stance.

 

(PS - What's wrong with trying to keep voters happy?)

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, A Red said:

But not stating what they might back in the referendum. As I said we know for sure what the lib dems and tories will fight for. Thats being up front with the voters, Labour are not

Labour have said they will trust the voters in a referendum to determine what happens on Brexit. 

 

Neither the Tories nor the Lib Dems will do that.

 

Tories and Lib Dem are "being upfront" by saying to the voters "we'll decide; we know best".

[TheHowieLama]

12 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

 

If the negotiations with the EU are to be in good faith, they need to take place with both parties open to the possibility of the UK either leaving or remaining. In other words, Labour should go into the negotiations with a neutral stance.

 

Were past negotiations on these terms not in good faith?