Stewart Downing

[Mr T]

I like stats but I also like using my eyeballs. Downing is a bog average player who won't improve us by the amount we will pay for him. Moreover, we'll have to wait 2 seasons to find this out. Do people never learn from their mistakes? I realise we have absolutely no influence on who is signed but if this is meant to be a place for discussion it would be worthwhile if people didn't suspend their mental faculties just to save some face if we do eventually sign him.

 

Pennant at £6M (when Rafa signed him) is a better signing than Downing at £20M and Pennant was a bad signing.

[MLB]

So we should keep our money in our pockets and play Kuyt

 

 

We will be playing Kuyt. On the right. Where he plays.

[Trucker Paddy]

Most sensible post on rawk since last June that

[Phoenix]

We will be playing Kuyt. On the right. Where he plays.

 

I really hopehope you are wrong... especially with a team lacking in pace and trickery on the wings

[billypilgrimnz]

We will be playing Kuyt. On the right. Where he plays.

 

And we will struggle for fourth in doing so.

[MLB]

And we will struggle for fourth in doing so.

 

 

We'll see. I have faith in Kenny, personally.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

And we will struggle for fourth in doing so.

 

Are you talking about our top scorer, or another player called Kuyt?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Read the post above yours. Those are also facts.

 

Cheers.

 

Some of those stats are misleading (playing some games more centrally means his passing rate will go up). I'd also like to see the stats from other years. When, you know, he has scored one or two or three goals; the normal amount he scores.

[Iantn]

Which perfectly explains why Young has more assists than Downing. Every. Fucking. Season.

 

You fucking clown.

 

Turn it in will yer, or can't you debate a point without throwing names about? Child-like behaviour that!

 

I can't be arsed to get the stats but I'd imagine that Young delivers far more crosses, especially set pieces, into the box than Downing does. Therefore surely we'd expect his assists to be higher, no?

 

Ashley Young has a great set piece delivery, but his general delivery from open play is often very inconsistent. Whereas Downings delivery from open play often creates chances because he knows where to put the ball.

 

How many assists each have come from set pieces during the last few years or how many have come from open play?

 

Stats are fuckin' great because you can twist them anyway you want to prove any point you want. More assists doesn't always mean a better delivery.

[WhiskeyJar]

Turn it in will yer, or can't you debate a point without throwing names about? Child-like behaviour that!

 

I can't be arsed to get the stats but I'd imagine that Young delivers far more crosses, especially set pieces, into the box than Downing does. Therefore surely we'd expect his assists to be higher, no?

 

Ashley Young has a great set piece delivery, but his general delivery from open play is often very inconsistent. Whereas Downings delivery from open play often creates chances because he knows where to put the ball.

 

How many assists each have come from set pieces during the last few years or how many have come from open play?

 

Stats are fuckin' great because you can twist them anyway you want to prove any point you want. More assists doesn't always mean a better delivery.

 

I suppose it also depends who takes the dead ball situations too i.e. corners and free kicks.

 

I think I saw Young take the majority of them whenever I have seen Villa play. Which means that Downing assists are mostly from open play as you yourself has suggested.

 

With regards to chances being created, I would side with Downing any time of the week.

 

Besides, Young seems far too inconsistent in that department of his game.

[Pidge]

Young takes ALL of Villa's free kicks. It's a point of some frustration for some Villa fans.

[zigackly]

Are you talking about our top scorer, or another player called Kuyt?

 

This argument is naive with respect to Kuyt. His high scoring seasons come when he is played through the middle a fair amount. His scoring rate from the right is a fair bit lower.

 

I'd like to keep him as one of our strikers beyond any shadow of a doubt, but we need more from a first choice winger than he gives us going forward.

 

At the very least he needs serious competition for his place, as we saw when Benayoun came in for him when Dirk was stagnant in 2009, and Kuyt consequently raised his level.

[BenR_]

Why the hell should I care how a player creates goals, as long as he creates them. Young has more assists. Every season. He's created more goals, set pieces or not.

 

If we buy Young and half his assists are from set pieces, why should I care? A ball in the net is a ball in the fucking net.

I don't get this new "Set pieces don't count" culture among modern fans. It's not as if we score enough goals from set pieces so we could do with someone who delivers them well.

 

Let's be honest here, 6 months ago not one soul would have wanted Downing here for the prices touted about. Now people are convincing themselves that he's a better player than Young, will be worth the outlay and that we have to sign him.

 

It was the same with Carroll, the first reaction when we signed him for 35m was usually shock, anger, extreme disappointment or what have you. Very few people had a positive reaction.

 

Now that he's already here we think he's the next Alan Shearer. I find that people's immediate reactions are always the most honest ones.

Edited May 29, 2011 by BenR_

[Phoenix]

So Young has 12 assists, 4 came from set pieces.

 

Guess what ,even if you take those off he has more than Downing has in total...(in one of his off form seasons and Downing in one of his best).

 

It's not like we couldnt do with someone who can take set pieces.

[WhiskeyJar]

So Young has 12 assists, 4 came from set pieces.

 

Guess what ,even if you take those off he has more than Downing has in total...(in one of his off form seasons and Downing in one of his best).

 

It's not like we couldnt do with someone who can take set pieces.

 

But the point was: who can score more goals from open play because we have already have our fair share of dead ball takers (Raul, Gerrard, JonJo etc), do we really need another one??

[Red Nick]

its all rather irrelevant as Young wont be joining us

 

Just hope Villa price us out of Downing if we really want him that is

[Iantn]

Why the hell should I care how a player creates goals, as long as he creates them. Young has more assists. Every season. He's created more goals, set pieces or not.

 

If we buy Young and half his assists are from set pieces, why should I care? A ball in the net is a ball in the fucking net.

I don't get this new "Set pieces don't count" culture among modern fans. It's not as if we score enough goals from set pieces so we could do with someone who delivers them well.

 

Let's be honest here, 6 months ago not one soul would have wanted Downing here for the prices touted about. Now people are convincing themselves that he's a better player than Young, will be worth the outlay and that we have to sign him.

 

It was the same with Carroll, the first reaction when we signed him for 35m was usually shock, anger, extreme disappointment or what have you. Very few people had a positive reaction.

 

Now that he's already here we think he's the next Alan Shearer. I find that people's immediate reactions are always the most honest ones.

 

For a start, I've never really rated Ashley Young. He takes a good set piece, generally, and has pace to burn. That's about it. Downing is a more clever footballer in terms of using his ability within the side rather just bombing past people.

 

The thing is, and what a lot of people always seem to forget at this time of year, a good side is made up of a collection of individuals that function superbly together rather than a collectiong of 'better' individuals that don't.

 

I don't think Downing will be an automatic starter for us next season, if our plans go well that is, but I do think he'll give us the balance, versatility and options we need within the squad to be competitive.

[Phoenix]

I think I saw Young take the majority of them whenever I have seen Villa play. Which means that Downing assists are mostly from open play as you yourself has suggested.

 

With regards to chances being created, I would side with Downing any time of the week.

 

 

Read your own post...

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

For a start, I've never really rated Ashley Young. He takes a good set piece, generally, and has pace to burn. That's about it. Downing is a more clever footballer in terms of using his ability within the side rather just bombing past people.

 

The thing is, and what a lot of people always seem to forget at this time of year, a good side is made up of a collection of individuals that function superbly together rather than a collectiong of 'better' individuals that don't.

 

I don't think Downing will be an automatic starter for us next season, if our plans go well that is, but I do think he'll give us the balance, versatility and options we need within the squad to be competitive.

 

So, at a time when our first 11 is pretty weak, we're going to spend 20m on a 27 year old to sit on the bench?

 

In your second paragraph, you say (correctly in my view) that good teams are build up of individuals who work well together rather than a load of better individuals that don't. How about we just get better players and get them working together. I know it's a mad Idea, but the choices are greater than 'average players working together' and 'great players not working together.

 

We should never settle for a lesser player because of that logic. We should keep our money in our pockets until we can get a top quality player that fits in the team. Otherwise, it's just throwing money at the wrong player.

[Iantn]

So, at a time when our first 11 is pretty weak, we're going to spend 20m on a 27 year old to sit on the bench?

 

In your second paragraph, you say (correctly in my view) that good teams are build up of individuals who work well together rather than a load of better individuals that don't. How about we just get better players and get them working together. I know it's a mad Idea, but the choices are greater than 'average players working together' and 'great players not working together.

 

We should never settle for a lesser player because of that logic. We should keep our money in our pockets until we can get a top quality player that fits in the team. Otherwise, it's just throwing money at the wrong player.

 

Am not convinced we'll be spending 20 million quid on him just yet but if we do then I'll certainly be reviewing how I view the transfer.

 

The point I was making on that is I think we'll sign a couple of players that are first teamers whereas the likes of Downing and Adam etc will be more dependant on the opponents rather than automatic starters. But we'll see, obviously.

 

I understand the point you are making about player abilities and that but I'd rather a player that is a consistent, if not spectucular, performer as that kinda squad option rather than someone whos levels vary to a decent degree. I feel Youngs performances do that.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Am not convinced we'll be spending 20 million quid on him just yet but if we do then I'll certainly be reviewing how I view the transfer.

 

The point I was making on that is I think we'll sign a couple of players that are first teamers whereas the likes of Downing and Adam etc will be more dependant on the opponents rather than automatic starters. But we'll see, obviously.

 

I understand the point you are making about player abilities and that but I'd rather a player that is a consistent, if not spectucular, performer as that kinda squad option rather than someone whos levels vary to a decent degree. I feel Youngs performances do that.

 

For a squad option, I absolutely agree. If we were paying 5/6m for him with the understanding the he'd be there to strengthen the squad, I'd be all over it like a rash.

 

Thing is, he's clearly not going to go for buttons. He has double the time on his contract that Young has, and with Young gone they'll be desperate to keep him. Those on this forum who are close to it say £20m. Mata can be had for £15-19m.

 

I do take your points about consistency, squad strength, and his attributes, but if we're paying big money then we must avoid the mistakes we've made so often in the past. I don't want people to be on here in 12 months saying the same things we've said about so many players lately. It'll be a waste of time for the team and a waste of cash.

[JaminKibbler]

Downing wouldn't be more than 15 million. They can price us out of it if they want and we can turn around and find an alternative, Villa don't need to sell remember.

 

Although, he would be good though, and a lot of Villa fans I know rate him much higher than Young, who is a selfish lazy player at times. Unlike Downing who is committed to the team and has a better delivery.

[Iantn]

For a squad option, I absolutely agree. If we were paying 5/6m for him with the understanding the he'd be there to strengthen the squad, I'd be all over it like a rash.

 

Thing is, he's clearly not going to go for buttons. He has double the time on his contract that Young has, and with Young gone they'll be desperate to keep him. Those on this forum who are close to it say £20m. Mata can be had for £15-19m.

 

I do take your points about consistency, squad strength, and his attributes, but if we're paying big money then we must avoid the mistakes we've made so often in the past. I don't want people to be on here in 12 months saying the same things we've said about so many players lately. It'll be a waste of time for the team and a waste of cash.

 

I do, to a degree, agree with what you are saying but if you look round the top clubs these days. 10-15 does make a good squad/first team option.

 

I think we could sign both Mata and Downing, for example, and that'd give us options to play both or one of.

 

I think also we've made more mistakes by not having good enough squad options. If we had someone like Downing back in the season we finished second rather than, say, Riera then we might've had that extra few points. For too long we've had a good first eleven, arguably at times the best in the country, but our depth has been woeful. Adding those two players could leave us with Downing, Meireles and Kuyt on the bench rather than Cole, Jovanovic and N'Gog. That to me is massive improvement for us.

 

Obviously getting the players right is far more important than anything but I do like the levels and options Downing could give us and think it might work better than Young. Especially given Young seemingly favours a move to Man Utd more than wanting us.

[MLB]

I doubt we would sign Downing as a squad player. If we do sign him it'll be as a first choice. It seems likely that we have made approaches for Mata and Hazard previously, so it could be argued that we have made attempts to get the better players that people want. If we can't get those players (and even the most blinkered on here must acknowledge that we are really up against it, given our lack of CL football and the fact that those players are in demand from richer, better-placed clubs) then what do we do? Some would probably say sign nobody if we can't sign the best, but that's fairly naive really. So we should go into next season without a proper left sided midfielder and then hope that somehow we make the top 4 anyway so that we can then attract those players? Clearly that does not make sense. What does make sense is signing the best players that we can actually get at this time. If they go to other clubs, or decide that they don't want to sign for a club that doesn't have Champion's League football, then there isn't much that we can do about that. What we can't afford to do, however, is stand still.

[zigackly]

I still hope we will sign a player like Downing and a player like Mata as well. We need options and strength in depth. At the moment we have just Maxi and Kuyt who can really be described as wide players, and neither of them is particularly fast or a particularly reknowned crosser of the ball. Kuyt is also our backup striker and has proved he's a great option with Suarez. I'm not sure what Cole is any more, and I would prefer Meireles to play centrally.

 

To my mind that means we need two in.