Is it time to return to religion?

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Bear with me, I'm down under so it's 10.45 pm and I've been drinking, BUT...

 

At the base level all religions monotheistic, theistic and atheistic are fundamentally, for me, about the common as opposed to the individual, about helping others in order to better oneself.

 

I don't believe that yer man Jesus rose again 2009 years ago last sunday, but I do believe that what he actually stood for was valid, he was a socialist (in my eyes) who believed that we had to work together, and cast out the moneylenders and those who preyed on the weak. Unfortunately his message was taken and distorted by those who the chance to gain power. Same with Muhammad, and no doubt Abraham and Solomon, certainly Buddhism & Hindusim have the ethos of working for the betterment of the common good and not harming others.

 

But should we now look back to religion - not in the dogmatic form that we my or may not have been brought up with, but with the actual spirit of the figureheads.

 

If we reject religion because of it's dogmatism, we are also at risk of rejecting the values that are valid, that can "make the world a better place". I grew up a rat catcher, moved into buddhism and atheism, although I'm atheist at heart, I believe the commmon benefit behind the true messages of all world religions can benefit the world a fuck load more than the current climate of no-one actually gives a shit, and we've fuck all to win/lose anyway other than the short term profit.

 

The same reason TV programs are becoming "competitive" how many fucking telly programmes are about defeating your "competitors" how much do we need to be divided, and could turning back to religion with our life experience and without the dogmatism/fundamentalism, but as adults able to take what we need from these learnings as opposed to swallowing everything verbatim as the truth.

 

Friedmanism/Thatcherism finally broke the community spirit, could/should we go back to religion to pull shit back together

 

MOD's feel free to delete, I have been drinking, but I reckon it's an interesting question.

 

Yours

 

An Old Hippy

[Elmyn Noos]

No. You can promote the values without the need for any kind of religious belief, so why try and encourage people to believe in something that is so clearly fundamentally untrue?

 

I would suggest that by trying to instill the values using religion, you are actually undermining what you are trying to achieve. People will dismiss the idea of god,etc as it is so ludicrous, and your values will be dismissed with it.

 

Religion is a means to an end. In my view, religion is merely a crass attempt at forcing the values on people through fear of the unknown.

[derykw]

If we have to look to religion to save us we really our fucked.

 

I think i see the point you`re trying to make but i don`t need any religious group to tell me right from wrong. And working for the common good is a fine principle as long as everyone pulls their weight.

I agree a lot of the ideals amongst religious groups are sound and a lot of good people work within these groups but I think good messages are over shadowed by the fairy tales and the sometimes extreme dogma.

[derykw]

double post.

Edited April 17, 2009 by derykw
double post sorry

[stevebaby]

Bear with me, I'm down under so it's 10.45 pm and I've been drinking, BUT...

 

At the base level all religions monotheistic, theistic and atheistic are fundamentally, for me, about the common as opposed to the individual, about helping others in order to better oneself.

 

I don't believe that yer man Jesus rose again 2009 years ago last sunday, but I do believe that what he actually stood for was valid, he was a socialist (in my eyes) who believed that we had to work together, and cast out the moneylenders and those who preyed on the weak. Unfortunately his message was taken and distorted by those who the chance to gain power. Same with Muhammad, and no doubt Abraham and Solomon, certainly Buddhism & Hindusim have the ethos of working for the betterment of the common good and not harming others.

 

But should we now look back to religion - not in the dogmatic form that we my or may not have been brought up with, but with the actual spirit of the figureheads.

 

If we reject religion because of it's dogmatism, we are also at risk of rejecting the values that are valid, that can "make the world a better place". I grew up a rat catcher, moved into buddhism and atheism, although I'm atheist at heart, I believe the commmon benefit behind the true messages of all world religions can benefit the world a fuck load more than the current climate of no-one actually gives a shit, and we've fuck all to win/lose anyway other than the short term profit.

 

The same reason TV programs are becoming "competitive" how many fucking telly programmes are about defeating your "competitors" how much do we need to be divided, and could turning back to religion with our life experience and without the dogmatism/fundamentalism, but as adults able to take what we need from these learnings as opposed to swallowing everything verbatim as the truth.

 

Friedmanism/Thatcherism finally broke the community spirit, could/should we go back to religion to pull shit back together

 

MOD's feel free to delete, I have been drinking, but I reckon it's an interesting question.

 

Yours

 

An Old Hippy

You old pisstank!

The worship of Bacchus is as valid as any other form of religious belief.

Suits me Sir.

[paddyberger15]

Noos, pictured earlier.

 

[Strontium]

There's nothing about rejecting religious dogma that implies rejection of our values of shared humanity. In any case, religion has done as much as anything throughout history to drive wedges between different groups of people. If there's no religion, then that's one less thing that can be used to divide people.

 

Trusting religion to put society "back together" is like trusting Gary Glitter to bathe your kids.

[Alan Sex]

[JRD7]

Religion is the ultimate tool for division.

 

Anyone not believing will be cast into eternal hell fire, anyone who does believe gets to praise skydaddy for eternity. I reckon I could last about 3 months up there before begging to be sent down to the Barbecue section, where the best music and porn reside.

 

Jesus (who I don't believe even existed) was not quite the picture of loveliness you make him out to be.

 

He said that anyone that followed him must hate their fathers and mothers, or they were not true believers.

 

He said If you've ever wanked, then you cut off your hand to stop yourself from doing it again.

 

He openly said he didn't come to bring peace but he came to bring the sword.

 

He advised people about even planning for tomorrow because god would be smashing shit up pretty soon.

 

If you want to read interesting, peaceful ideas that pre-date the Jesus myth by several hundred years, read Socrates. If you want to read many of the same teachings that Yeshua peddled (without the less well known violent stuff) from 2000 years before his time, read Buddha.

[G Richards]

Just want to say that I try to follow Jesus, but I'm not a huge fan of religion per se.

 

His two core teaching are more than enough to go by. When asked what is the most important commandment, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God...and love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on this."

 

It is a personal thing, but that's what I'm trying to do (I don't always hit the mark, but the target couldn't be any clearer). Life has been a great adventure since I tried to live in keeping with those two core teachings of Jesus.

 

Yesterday I was fortunate to visit an important work that helps the young homeless in Indianapolis. I met with the founder to discuss forming a partnership that would invest money, staffing and so on since the need is great.

 

My faith opened up the opportunity by helping me to see my life beyond my own immediate situation. This prompted me to try to get involved.

 

Lots of people do lots of things for lots of reasons, and I know plenty of people with no particular faith do great works of kindness. I thank God for them, I really do. But for me, my heart can tend towards selfishness and taking care of my own comfort. Following Jesus helps me to see beyond that and he helps me to care about situations that I might not otherwise have noticed.

 

So, I'm not such a huge fan of religion myself, but I am trying to follow Jesus.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Lesson 1. VB and boddingtons does not a proper pint of golden make, but works as a good squidgee for the third eye.

 

Some interesting responses, especially from the padre, I think the point I ewas garbling about was a different idea of religion to the institutionalised ones, a lot of religion seems more related to the figureheads of the religions as opposed to the message they were trying to spread, and through that people have abused the power they could gain through religion - similar in a way to Stalin's abuse of marxism/socialism.

 

I watched the recent christianity history thing that was on telly back in the UK recently and it raised some interesing points, also watching democracy now last week there was an old retired couple who are part of a christian group trying to help those in war torn areas, this old dude and his wife each spen 3 months every year in eaither Iraq or Afghanistan helping the muslims, the wife got kidnapped by a sect last time she was in Iraq I think, her husband at the time was in afghanistan and stood in front of a tank to stop it rolling people's homes. The people who had kidnapped his wife saw news of this an released her.

 

The current state of western civilisation is very divisive, look at all the prime time telly programs all competitive/divisive, best fucking singer/entertainer/dancer/bricky, and laugh at all the gobshites who have a go along the way.

 

There's also a collection of priests who are doing more research into the gospels etc, who are firmly of the belief that there were not miracles, there was no resurrection, and that basically the message the boy from Nazareth was trying to get across was about socialist values, they want to try and expound on those ideas more - which I think is a good thing, however are wary of taking that message out into the churches as it may be rejected - can yer imagine going into the Deep South baptist lands:

 

"Well we'd just like to say that Jesus was more than likely a black man, and he was socialist"

 

"you just take that back Mister, he won't no commie and he sure as hell won't no Ni..." (the sherrif's a Ni.... from Blazing Saddles)

 

Fuck me they wouldn't get out alive.

 

JRD7 - We don't know for sure what any of these prophets said, just what the people who followed him passed down. Bil Hicks - last prophet and at least I know what he said for sure. Socrates - JMU 95 - 98 Philosophy drop out mate, Karl popper was the king.

 

Stevebaby - there really is fuck all do do but have a bevvy this time of year in Sydney, you joined the Liverpool Supporters branch over here?

 

Merlot tonight followed by Iron Horse and Pepsi

[Rex Banner]

Watch Religulous, it's good.

[Guest Ulysses Everett McGill]

Dawkins is God

[coop]

Take religon out of this world and what do you have.

 

Peace on Earth.

[Melchett]

Going to war over religion is basically killing one another to see who's got the better imaginary friend.

[Melchett]

A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "religion?"

 

The man says, "Church of England."

 

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

 

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "religion?"

 

"Catholic."

 

"Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

 

A third man arrives at the gates. "religion?"

 

"Jewish."

 

"Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

 

The next man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?"

 

St. Peter tells him, "The Jehovah's Witnesses are in room 8, they think they're the only ones here."

[JRD7]

Lesson 1. VB and boddingtons does not a proper pint of golden make, but works as a good squidgee for the third eye.

 

 

 

I watched the recent christianity history thing that was on telly back in the UK recently and it raised some interesing points,

 

It was to promote the beauty of Christianity. I watched most of the programmes and I missed the episode on "you either believed or were tortured and burned"

 

2000 year on with the expansion of vocabulary and expression, we can all find some wonderful meanings in any book.

 

 

There's also a collection of priests who are doing more research into the gospels etc, who are firmly of the belief that there were not miracles, there was no resurrection, and that basically the message the boy from Nazareth was trying to get across was about socialist values,

 

And? I could tell you there are no such things as miracles, and if we take Paul, the first to mention the resurrection, he knows hardly anything about the events, and was only aware that Jeebus "appeared" to a few people, but there seems a lack of any knowledge of the padded out gospels that were to follow.

 

The problem I have, is that if you take the miracles out of religion, we're generally left with stories of rape, genocide and child abuse. It is only the advancement of the scientific method, reason and rationality that has pushed dogma into retreat. These priests are attempting to make their books of ancient myths seem relevant today. There is nothing in the bible that comes close to the beauty of Carl Sagans "Cosmos."

 

JRD7 - We don't know for sure what any of these prophets said, just what the people who followed him passed down. Bil Hicks - last prophet and at least I know what he said for sure. Socrates - JMU 95 - 98 Philosophy drop out mate, Karl popper was the king.

 

If we don't know what these prophets really said, then why ask the question of the thread? All I was doing was showing that the teachings of the Christian religion (which you discussed in the opening post) were not even new for the time in which they were written, let alone today. We need to drift towards the teachings of Thomas Paine, not the gospels.

[Stu Monty]

No.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

If we don't know what these prophets really said, then why ask the question of the thread? All I was doing was showing that the teachings of the Christian religion (which you discussed in the opening post) were not even new for the time in which they were written, let alone today. We need to drift towards the teachings of Thomas Paine, not the gospels.

 

Dude, I bow to your better argument (no sarcasm intended) and duly concur with stu monty and thes rest of yers. Dawkins is much respected - God delusion is a boss book, people just need to educate each other a bit more maybe - the missus told us about the recent thing with the kids torturing some other kids - thats what set us off on this path of thought.

 

So I concur with Monty and the rest of yers, including GR, we need to find our own path, so here's to Bacchanalia:thumbsup:

[Yerma'satexan!]

My faith in my Nihilism keeps me strong. I even own my own branch of it for God's (ha! as if) sake!

 

Nihilism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Alan Sex]

[Lupin]

Religion is delusional, thick-headed and infantile. It takes away the need to really think about things and often to act accordingly. Most of all however, it takes away the responsibility for our own action or inaction (absolution in catholicism, the will of God (enter name of deity in question) generally) and fools those who believe into the idea of redemption and no long-lasting consequences - after all, it'll all be alright when you're dead, won't it?

 

This is it 0 this is life - no re-runs, no afterlife no heaven and hell - just this. Accept it - accept your own mortality, the deal in being born is that your death is inevitable to make way for the next lot. Live a good life - try and fill the empty spaces with human meaning, all in the knowledge there is no cosmological, deitific meaning - it just is what it is.

 

If you can live with that, a great weight is lifted and you can get on with life, stop worrying about death and even more stupidly, what comes after it.

 

Life - existence - is fine. Religion fucks it up...religion is a lie perpetrated on mankind by mankind in the name of power and control wrapped up as spirituality - and don't forget wealth. While children the world over starve to death, the Pope sits in golden robed finery in his own city, in his own choice of palaces with Tintorettos, Rubens' Michelangelos etc on his walls and ceilings and a business portfolio that would embarrass Bill Gates...and he's not alone - what head of what church lives in poverty? Be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism or heaven forfend - Scientology.

 

It's a con - and it's about time the human race outgrew such superstitious twaddle.

[JRD7]

Just want to say that I try to follow Jesus, but I'm not a huge fan of religion per se.

 

His two core teaching are more than enough to go by. When asked what is the most important commandment, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God...and love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on this."

 

It is a personal thing, but that's what I'm trying to do (I don't always hit the mark, but the target couldn't be any clearer). Life has been a great adventure since I tried to live in keeping with those two core teachings of Jesus.

 

Yesterday I was fortunate to visit an important work that helps the young homeless in Indianapolis. I met with the founder to discuss forming a partnership that would invest money, staffing and so on since the need is great.

 

My faith opened up the opportunity by helping me to see my life beyond my own immediate situation. This prompted me to try to get involved.

 

Lots of people do lots of things for lots of reasons, and I know plenty of people with no particular faith do great works of kindness. I thank God for them, I really do. But for me, my heart can tend towards selfishness and taking care of my own comfort. Following Jesus helps me to see beyond that and he helps me to care about situations that I might not otherwise have noticed.

 

So, I'm not such a huge fan of religion myself, but I am trying to follow Jesus.

 

Hello Sir - long time, no debate.

 

Just wondering if you could give an opinion on this video.

 

[YOUTUBE]zOfjkl-3SNE[/YOUTUBE]

[ToxtethTerror]

I didn't see many of you athiests complain or laugh at the memorial service last week which was mainly a religious event. Many of us get real strength from God and religion and to harp on about in a disrespectful way is out of order. People can believe what they like but shouldn't ridicule people's beliefs.

[JRD7]

I didn't see many of you athiests complain or laugh at the memorial service last week which was mainly a religious event. Many of us get real strength from God and religion and to harp on about in a disrespectful way is out of order. People can believe what they like but shouldn't ridicule people's beliefs.

 

That was out of respect for the cause, not the service. Hillsborough was in no way, whatsoever a religious event. This is still a Christian country, and as such, events like this remain draped in religious imagery.

 

The unexplainable beliefs of others are exactly what we should be ridiculing. Have a personal relationship with god by all means, but anyone worshipping a murdering, genocidal, sexually abusive god, with paedophile prophets and clergy cannot expect any special privileges from me. In fact, you should be damn well ashamed.

 

Fucking hell.......please don't criticise bronze-aged beliefs, and no I can't provide evidence. Angels dictate books to paedophiles is all us atheists need to know, while you can walk round expecting us to burn for eternity. The tide is turning TT. Climb aboard the atheist bus and leave your "peaceful" religion in the middle ages where it belongs.