Safe Standing

[xerxes]

Not so sure about Heysel. Of course, the specific events would have been different, but the poor maintenance / structural safety was already there. It's not known if 15,000 fans doing the Poznan or similar would have eventually resulted in structural collapse anyway. I'm speculating, of course, just commenting that the structural inadequacy might have eventually been found out even with seating. The rush/crush against the stadium wall wouldn't have happened, but we'll never know how long that wall would have lasted.

 

Heysel is the elephant in the room for us. Everyone, UEFA, Belguim, The FA and LFC wanted it out of the way as soon as possible for differing reasons. The absence of any substantive enquiry remains astonishing.

 

A considered enquiry may well have produced recommendations which would have pre-empted Hillsborough.

 

Most disasters by their very nature involve a perfect storm of things going wrong. There is little doubt that the inadequacy of the stadium and ill -prepared policing did not help. Equally English fans were routinely laying waste to foreign cities and few people cared, the latter being the link with Hillsborough.

[Trumo]

The thing about allowing 2 people to stand in the space normally occupied by one seat is that you still have to consider stadium emergency evacuation. I think it takes less than 10 minutes to empty the Kop currently because the access and number of exits allows for it. If the capacity was pretty much doubled in the Kop, how long would it take to evacuate in an emergency if necessary? If a stand or stadium is designed for safe standing and '2 per seat' from the off, then the above can be factored in from the start.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

The thing about allowing 2 people to stand in the space normally occupied by one seat is that you still have to consider stadium emergency evacuation. I think it takes less than 10 minutes to empty the Kop currently because the access and number of exits allows for it. If the capacity was pretty much doubled in the Kop, how long would it take to evacuate in an emergency if necessary? If a stand or stadium is designed for safe standing and '2 per seat' from the off, then the above can be factored in from the start.

 

As bizarre as this may sound I do not feel safe sitting in the Kop. I am 6'3" and my knees are always getting stuck in the seat in front of me. It takes me about 3-4 seconds to manoeuvre myself to get up and down.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

 

As bizarre as this may sound I do not feel safe sitting in the Kop. I am 6'3" and my knees are always getting stuck in the seat in front of me. It takes me about 3-4 seconds to manoeuvre myself to get up and down.

 

I've never felt seating was safe, much for the same reasons as you. Ever had somebody from the same row fall forward and knock you into the row in front? The seat in front fucks your legs, too.

 

Anyone in the front part of the kop for Chelsea in the European cup in 2005?

[aws]

I've never felt seating was safe, much for the same reasons as you. Ever had somebody from the same row fall forward and knock you into the row in front? The seat in front fucks your legs, too.

 

Anyone in the front part of the kop for Chelsea in the European cup in 2005?

 

I've never been injured watching a game but I've been far closer a few times in all-seated grounds than I ever was on an open terrace.

[xerxes]

The thing about allowing 2 people to stand in the space normally occupied by one seat is that you still have to consider stadium emergency evacuation. I think it takes less than 10 minutes to empty the Kop currently because the access and number of exits allows for it. If the capacity was pretty much doubled in the Kop, how long would it take to evacuate in an emergency if necessary? If a stand or stadium is designed for safe standing and '2 per seat' from the off, then the above can be factored in from the start.

 

Doubling up on seat/ standing ratios changes the whole dynamic for numbers of entrnces and exits, their siza and ocation as well as provision of toilets and refreshements and could only ever be done on new stands/stadia.

 

I am happy with one seat one standing place, but not with increased density.

[xerxes]

I've never been injured watching a game but I've been far closer a few times in all-seated grounds than I ever was on an open terrace.

 

the risk of minor injuries (bruised shins) probably is greater in seated stadia, the risk of death far less.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

 

the risk of minor injuries (bruised shins) probably is greater in seated stadia' date=' the risk of death far less.[/quote']

 

It's far less if there's fences up. Safe standing is safer than all three, I'd wager. Just as long as the numbers are controlled and the area is free to spill over onto the pitch.

[aws]

It's far less if there's fences up. Safe standing is safer than all three, I'd wager. Just as long as the numbers are controlled and the area is free to spill over onto the pitch.

 

Agree with that. If there are no fences and capacities are not exceeded then deaths in stadia happen during crushes or panics when people are exiting or entering and whether there are seats or not is irrelevant.

[FanchesterCity]

The thing about allowing 2 people to stand in the space normally occupied by one seat is that you still have to consider stadium emergency evacuation. I think it takes less than 10 minutes to empty the Kop currently because the access and number of exits allows for it. If the capacity was pretty much doubled in the Kop, how long would it take to evacuate in an emergency if necessary? If a stand or stadium is designed for safe standing and '2 per seat' from the off, then the above can be factored in from the start.

 

You'd be surprised (or possibly not) that it would take longer in an emergency.

 

People panic, it cocks up the entire system and often ends up with an evacuation taking longer than if you just walked out on matchday.

 

And of course, there's a change some of the contingency plans will be wiped out (blocked exits due to fire, or collapse, or even one person stumbling in any narrow opening and then that causing more to trip up.... next thing you know, people are scrambling over people on the floor to get out... nasty stuff.

 

Sadly, a disaster by its very nature tends to something that wasn't planned for, or exceeded the bounds in some way.

 

Let's not forget, Hillsborough wasn't over capacity, and accepting a couple of similar 'warnings' in the past - they THOUGHT all reasonable precautions had been taken, and all systems were adequate. Three or four seemingly (at the time) 'minor' decisions combined to create tragedy.

[FanchesterCity]

Agree with that. If there are no fences and capacities are not exceeded then deaths in stadia happen during crushes or panics when people are exiting or entering and whether there are seats or not is irrelevant.

 

Minor obstacles (like seats) contrary to instinct tend to help regulate the flow... much like chicanes / zig zag passage ways. Of course, there's always the potential for a scenario where the seating made matters worse, but it's not happened yet. An example... (possibly) might be a bomb blast where debris does more damage than the blast itself etc. But all in all, the odds are strongly in favour of seating.

[FanchesterCity]

Heysel is the elephant in the room for us. Everyone, UEFA, Belguim, The FA and LFC wanted it out of the way as soon as possible for differing reasons. The absence of any substantive enquiry remains astonishing.

 

A considered enquiry may well have produced recommendations which would have pre-empted Hillsborough.

 

Most disasters by their very nature involve a perfect storm of things going wrong. There is little doubt that the inadequacy of the stadium and ill -prepared policing did not help. Equally English fans were routinely laying waste to foreign cities and few people cared, the latter being the link with Hillsborough.

 

Indeed.

[VladimirIlyich]

There is not much chance of anybody introducing standing and reducing capacity,they will increase the numbers to compensate for any price reduction.

 

This is now the way the game/business is now run.

[Tyler Durden]

There is not much chance of anybody introducing standing and reducing capacity,they will increase the numbers to compensate for any price reduction.

 

This is now the way the game/business is now run.

 

I couldn't see how it would reduce it, you wouldn't lose much in terms of rows and you could probably fit 3 per 2 seats in the likes of the main stand. (Not a chance where I sit in the lower centenary though, those seats are that compact it's a joke, front and sides)

[VladimirIlyich]

I couldn't see how it would reduce it, you wouldn't lose much in terms of rows and you could probably fit 3 per 2 seats in the likes of the main stand. (Not a chance where I sit in the lower centenary though, those seats are that compact it's a joke, front and sides)

 

I said there is no way capacity is going to be reduced,whether seated or standing but if the chance arises to increase capacity then prices arent going to be reduced anyway.

 

My opinion is that you will pay the same prices whether seated or standing.

[xerxes]

I couldn't see how it would reduce it, you wouldn't lose much in terms of rows and you could probably fit 3 per 2 seats in the likes of the main stand. (Not a chance where I sit in the lower centenary though, those seats are that compact it's a joke, front and sides)

 

I don't understand those who equate reintroduced standing with lower prices. The capital cost would be exceptional, why lowere the price of one seat one standing place and reduce revenue? Increased capacity equals increased costs.

 

As a regular on the centenary lower I share your discomfort even though i am 5ft 10in. The enthusiasm some have for our existing stadium facilities baffles me.

[navbasi]

Aston Villa keen to trial standing area at Villa Park - 12 February 2014

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26158044

 

I'm assuming they didn't get the backing to hold this trial as it was mentioned nearly 2 years ago now.

[Grinch]

It's the only way we'll see decent atmosphere in England.  People comparing Dortmond's atmosphere to ours as things stand is ridicolous.  Entirely different circumstances.