Plymouth Shootings

[Elite]

15 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Fred West was committing evil acts from his teens. He just got away with it. 
 

I just think calling him ‘evil’ let’s everyone off. 

If he's not evil then, what is he?

 

Indoctrination can cause people to do horrendous things but to be able to pull that trigger at a defenceless child is something 99.999999% people could not do whether they have been indoctrinated, mentally ill or otherwise. The 0.000000001% that can must be evil or have evil in them.

 

Who would you define as evil?

 

I'm not using evil as an excuse for him, it's just the emotive term that springs to mind when I hear shit like this.

[Elite]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

What if the child has a suicide belt strapped to them?

That's different and you know it.

[Elite]

3 minutes ago, Champ said:

And I think you’ve got it there, about acts being ‘evil’ rather than the individuals themselves 

Give me an example of someone that's not evil committing an evil act?

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, Elite said:

That's different and you know it.

 

Okay, but you did say "Anyone who intentionally kills a child is evil". So long as you agree that there are exceptions to the rule, I'm satisfied.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

What if the child has a suicide belt strapped to them?

I'd be intrigued to know how anyone could argue that this is not evil.

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I'd be intrigued to know how anyone could argue that this is not evil.

 

Well obviously strapping a bomb to them is evil, but I'm talking about someone who shoots a child suicide bomber to prevent detonation. Or any other child who is armed for that matter, since it is quite common in some conflicts to use child combatants. I don't think you wait to see a passport if a youth has an AK aimed at you.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

10 hours ago, Carradona said:

Fuck this horrible, evil cunt.

 

And, honestly, fuck anybody blaming this on mental health or bullying.

Fuck anybody ignoring the link between mental health issues and violent episodes. 

 

He sure did turn into a cunt, aided by the internet. I think there's a few in here who can also have their worst behavioural traits exacerbated by online anonymity. 

 

 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

14 minutes ago, Elite said:

Give me an example of someone that's not evil committing an evil act?

Thousands of 'civil servants' doing their jobs in Germany 1936-1945 is one example.  

[Elite]

2 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

Thousands of 'civil servants' doing their jobs in Germany 1936-1945 is one example.  

If they didn't they'd have been killed themselves. I want examples of people that chose to commit acts of evil, not out of fear.

[Rico1304]

23 minutes ago, Elite said:

If he's not evil then, what is he?

 

Indoctrination can cause people to do horrendous things but to be able to pull that trigger at a defenceless child is something 99.999999% people could not do whether they have been indoctrinated, mentally ill or otherwise. The 0.000000001% that can must be evil or have evil in them.

 

Who would you define as evil?

 

I'm not using evil as an excuse for him, it's just the emotive term that springs to mind when I hear shit like this.

I don’t think we know anything about him yet.  
 

I read a good book about ‘evil’ I’ll try and find it.  

[Elite]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I don’t think we know anything about him yet.  
 

I read a good book about ‘evil’ I’ll try and find it.  

Wouldn't mind reading that actually. Post the name when you find it.

[Dr Nowt]

In my opinion, you can confidently label behaviour and actions evil, but without knowing the full details behind what prompted someone to commit them, including how much criminal capacity they would be legally judged to have if they were alive to be assessed, you can’t really pontificate accurately about whether someone is or isn’t inherently and intentionally evil themselves.

 

What about a schizophrenic, who thinks they’re hearing voices instructing them to kill someone and does so? Are they innately evil? No idea what this individual’s backstory is, but for me there is an uncomfortable element to the way new offenders like this are immediately spoken about definitively from a distance by essentially armchair pundits without all the information or qualifications to make such pronouncements. He might be a total sadist who enjoys watching people suffer pain and has set out hoping to murder a child this week. He might be at the very far end of mental illness such that, were he alive to be assessed by qualified professionals, he would be deemed not to have criminal capacity for his actions. He may have broken with reality entirely and lost his mind. We just don’t know, and may well never do.

 

There are a complex set of strands creating offenders like this, which may or may not include serious mental illness, and without being privy to the full details it’s a bit reductionist and simplistic to pontificate about someone being ‘evil’. It’s got tones of going on about how much you’d like to batter a paedophile or rubbing your hands together about the offender of a particular grisly crime being raped in prison. It’s often done to angrily express offence at decency having been stained, but it’s ironically not in itself a particularly decent attitude and a bit ‘hang ‘em high’ for my liking.
 

Also, mental health and mental illness are a spectrum. There is an absolute world of difference between the depression/anxiety many of us have had unpleasant experiences with and mental illnesses causing for example paranoid delusions. Just because I’ve had depressive episodes off and on throughout my life, I don’t feel like the limits of my own behaviour when in that state are representative of all the mental disorders out there or the range of ways people may behave while experiencing them. Of course, he may not have been experiencing any. We don’t know. It’s alright to reserve some judgement on these things sometimes, acknowledging that we simply don’t know everything that lay behind a tragedy of this magnitude. 
 

His actions, though? Absolutely unspeakably horrific and evil, yes, obviously.

[Dr Nowt]

6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I don’t think we know anything about him yet.  
 

I read a good book about ‘evil’ I’ll try and find it.  

Is it this?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mad-Bad-Critical-Counselling-Psychology/dp/1473963516

 

I’ve been recommended it before but not got around to adding it to my pile of books I never read.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

22 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

Well obviously strapping a bomb to them is evil, but I'm talking about someone who shoots a child suicide bomber to prevent detonation. Or any other child who is armed for that matter, since it is quite common in some conflicts to use child combatants. I don't think you wait to see a passport if a youth has an AK aimed at you.

Ah. Gotcha.

 

I'm going to back out of this debate now, like Homer backing into a hedge. I'm not well into the concepts of good & evil, because life tends to be more complicated than that.

[Dr Nowt]

7 minutes ago, Dr Nowt said:

In my opinion, you can confidently label behaviour and actions evil, but without knowing the full details behind what prompted someone to commit them, including how much criminal capacity they would be legally judged to have if they were alive to be assessed, you can’t really pontificate accurately about whether someone is or isn’t inherently and intentionally evil themselves.

 

What about a schizophrenic, who thinks they’re hearing voices instructing them to kill someone and does so? Are they innately evil? No idea what this individual’s backstory is, but for me there is an uncomfortable element to the way new offenders like this are immediately spoken about definitively from a distance by essentially armchair pundits without all the information or qualifications to make such pronouncements. He might be a total sadist who enjoys watching people suffer pain and has set out hoping to murder a child this week. He might be at the very far end of mental illness such that, were he alive to be assessed by qualified professionals, he would be deemed not to have criminal capacity for his actions. He may have broken with reality entirely and lost his mind. We just don’t know, and may well never do.

 

There are a complex set of strands creating offenders like this, which may or may not include serious mental illness, and without being privy to the full details it’s a bit reductionist and simplistic to pontificate about someone being ‘evil’. It’s got tones of going on about how much you’d like to batter a paedophile or rubbing your hands together about the offender of a particular grisly crime being raped in prison. It’s often done to angrily express offence at decency having been stained, but it’s ironically not in itself a particularly decent attitude and a bit ‘hang ‘em high’ for my liking.
 

Also, mental health and mental illness are a spectrum. There is an absolute world of difference between the depression/anxiety many of us have had unpleasant experiences with and mental illnesses causing for example paranoid delusions. Just because I’ve had depressive episodes off and on throughout my life, I don’t feel like the limits of my own behaviour when in that state are representative of all the mental disorders out there or the range of ways people may behave while experiencing them. Of course, he may not have been experiencing any. We don’t know. It’s alright to reserve some judgement on these things sometimes, acknowledging that we simply don’t know everything that lay behind a tragedy of this magnitude. 
 

His actions, though? Absolutely unspeakably horrific and evil, yes, obviously.

That probably sounds really pious btw and isn’t meant that way, or personally at anyone. I have the same mental dialogue with myself about these things. Just find the rush to label and judge without all the details at hand a bit uncomfortable, personally.

[Rico1304]

Dr Julia Shaw, Making Evil. 
 

Starts with Pistonbroke, goes onto NV and then finishes with the whopper that is TK. 

[Elite]

Just now, Dr Nowt said:

That probably sounds really pious btw and isn’t meant that way of personally at anyone. I have the same mental dialogue with myself about these things. Just find the rush to label and judge without all the details at hand a bit uncomfortable, personally.

No, you made a really interesting point.

 

The word 'evil' is broad and as I said before very emotive. That's why I am interested in reading that book Rico suggested as it may provide me with a true, in-depth definition with examples etc.

 

As a father, child killing (along with abuse) is the most heinous act that humans can commit, so I automatically think they must be evil. Which in my definition they are but other people's definitions may be different which is fine.

[Elite]

3 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Dr Julia Shaw, Making Evil. 
 

Starts with Pistonbroke, goes onto NV and then finishes with the whopper that is TK. 

Rep owing.

[Dr Nowt]

Just now, Elite said:

No, you made a really interesting point.

 

The word 'evil' is broad and as I said before very emotive. That's why I am interested in reading that book Rico suggested as it may provide me with a true, in-depth definition with examples etc.

 

As a father, child killing (along with abuse) is the most heinous act that humans can commit, so I automatically think they must be evil. Which in my definition they are but other people's definitions may be different which is fine.

Did you call my pint a poof?

[Elite]

Just now, Dr Nowt said:

Did you call my pint a poof?

I would never insult alcohol, just insult everyone else once I've drank it.

[Arniepie]

11 minutes ago, Dr Nowt said:

That probably sounds really pious btw and isn’t meant that way, or personally at anyone. I have the same mental dialogue with myself about these things. Just find the rush to label and judge without all the details at hand a bit uncomfortable, personally.

Though it was spot on tbh

I think labelling him as evil,without obviously condoning his horrendous actions, is far too simplistic.

The mail has his labelled today as a virgin loner,as obviously they have no interest in what actually led him to this point aswell as,rather ironically considering their conservative attitude,using Tue word virgin in a derogatory manner

 

[Champ]

48 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I'd be intrigued to know how anyone could argue that this is not evil.

The exploitation of the child?

[Champ]

39 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

Fuck anybody ignoring the link between mental health issues and violent episodes. 

 

He sure did turn into a cunt, aided by the internet. I think there's a few in here who can also have their worst behavioural traits exacerbated by online anonymity. 

 

 

A person with mental illness is far more likely to be the victim of violence than the other way round

[Elite]

2 minutes ago, Champ said:

A person with mental illness is far more likely to be the victim of violence than the other way round

I'm confused what point you're trying to make in this thread. You don't think he's evil and you don't think he's mentally ill, so what do you think? Genuinely curious. Sent with peace (I'm not trying to antagonise you).

[Colonel Bumcunt]

7 minutes ago, Champ said:

A person with mental illness is far more likely to be the victim of violence than the other way round

Until one day...