West Ham (A) Fa cup replay

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

I think what we saw last night was that there is absolutely no need to be wasting our resources, and then crying about not having enough resources, on squad players like Allen and Lallana. £40m they cost, and their place in the squad, which should be occasionally making it to the bench if the whole squad was fit, should be taken by some of these kids.

Exactly. Any money should be for starters. Squad players should generally be coming through the ranks.

[Iceman]

If Henderson didn't run away from responsibility so much he wouldn't hurt his heels. Run less, attack more, shoot and score more often. Oh yeah, and tackle. 

[G Richards]

I think Jairz makes a good point about the kids. We have some good ones. One of the things we've learned in recent weeks is that decent, young, hungry players are just as good as more established "stars" who are less hungry. We need to add some top class players in the summer - preferably a whole new spine, and then augment that with the best of the first teamers we already have, plus the squad men who have been showing their worth. 

 

I think we'll see about 10 out and 6 in over the summer, and the 10 who leave will include a number of players who have featured - too much - in the first team. 

 

I hope that we will look back on this down time and see that it helped us make some important decisions about the shape of the squad in future. And in the meantime, if we can get some match winners on the pitch we might yet do well in the Europa. 

 

To go all championship manager for a second:

 

Ter Stegen

Matip

Xhaka

Reus (or best we can attract)

 

Four straight into the best eleven to go with the best of what we've got, plus our hungry and talented youngsters to make up the squad. Bin ten of them.  

[Gym Beglin]

He's five foot ten. That's how five foot ten centrebacks defend. Cannavaro did it all the time, and he was almost as good a centreback as Lucas.

.

Exactly.

 

Cannavaro, Cordoba, Puyol, Baresi.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

The Rev and Jairz singing from the same hymn sheet. And I totally agree.

[Boss]

As for Benteke, I disagree respectfully. I don't think we can afford to lower our expectations of a striker that low to the point that we give praise for him 'trying'. Michael Owen was trying that last night, giving him praise for 'being in the right place', but that's a minimum standard for the number 9 at Liverpool Football Club, surely to christ.

 

I don't see how he's supposed to kick on from here. He's just had a game where people go "you've played well there lad", and so he goes into our next games with the mindset that he's doing well. But he didn't score or make anything of note. How can you applaud an experienced striker without a goal in 11 games after he's just missed a 1v1 and scuffed 3 backpost chances at the keeper's legs from 2 yards out, and couldn't hit the target from 12 yards out when the ball dropped to him? Gillingham fans might, we shouldn't.

 

Look, we're stuck with him till at least the summer, chances are no one will buy him then anyway, so we may as well back the lad while he's here.

 

Some of the things i've heard said about him are a joke, he's the most hateful player since Diouf, he's worse than Balotelli, he's Carroll without the effort.

 

1. Diouf was a disrespectful cunt who attacked everybody at the club including the manager, Gerrard and Carra. Benteke has said or done nothing whatsoever to be placed on that pedestal.

 

2. Balotelli scored ONE goal all season, Benteke eclipsed that in September.

 

3. He's already scored the same amount of goals as Carroll scored for us in less than half the amount of games.

 

Some of the abuse is well over the top, it's verging on self sabotage. He was being criticised when he was doing well for us as well, so there's definitely agendas at play there. Some people would rather jump on his back and see him crumble under the abuse rather than actually see this team do well this season. 

[Red Phoenix]

Suso MkII as far as I'm concerned. His parents need a good shoeing for the catastrophe that is his given name as well, fucking hipsters. 

 

Suso is a better passer by far, more awareness. I think Ibe is a lot stronger and better at dribbling. Would be good if you could combine them both. Any mad scientists around? Teixeira is way more similar to Suso for me.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Feels grim when we have to scrape out the positives in a defeat to the mighty west ham. 

[3 Stacks]

It won't happen, but if i was Klopp i'd look to sell Henderson. In a 4-2-3-1 he just doesn't give us enough as he's not especially good on the ball or a dedicated #6 who constantly breaks up play. He runs a lot and his end product is decent but to get the best out of him I think you have to play him further up the pitch and that means he has to take the place of one of our forwards which is something we can't afford to do. I really don't think he's effective in central midfield and imo, we look more fluid with him out of the team.

 

We'd get a massive fee as well.

[Jairzinho]

From?

 

City have got their mediocre English midfielder whose best skill is running around. He wouldn't get anywhere near Arsenal's side. Would either of the Mancs or Chelsea stump up £25m? (is this the sort of figure you had in mind?)

[Russ Atmosphere]

From?

 

[Russ Atmosphere]

Second thoughts, he wouldn't get an offer.

[3 Stacks]

From?

 

City have got their mediocre English midfielder whose best skill is running around. He wouldn't get anywhere near Arsenal's side. Would either of the Mancs or Chelsea stump up £25m? (is this the sort of figure you had in mind?)

 

He's still Liverpool captain and an England intenational in the middle of his prime. With the new tv money, I think any mid-table Premier League side would  give us 25mill for him.

[Russ Atmosphere]

He's still Liverpool captain and an England intenational in the middle of his prime. With the new tv money, I think any mid-table Premier League side would  give us 25mill for him.

 

With an injury that has seen him look half the player this season? That would be a record transfer for just about any team below top six.

[Jairzinho]

He's still Liverpool captain and an England intenational in the middle of his prime. With the new tv money, I think any mid-table Premier League side would  give us 25mill for him.

 

Yes, but I guess I was assuming he probably thinks he's better than a mid table side and wouldn't sign for one.

[3 Stacks]

Yes, but I guess I was assuming he probably thinks he's better than a mid table side and wouldn't sign for one.

 

Yes, possibly. This is all hypothetical as we're not going to sell our 25 year old captain, it's just something that I would try to do.

[lebron]

Look, we're stuck with him till at least the summer, chances are no one will buy him then anyway, so we may as well back the lad while he's here.

 

Some of the things i've heard said about him are a joke, he's the most hateful player since Diouf, he's worse than Balotelli, he's Carroll without the effort.

 

1. Diouf was a disrespectful cunt who attacked everybody at the club including the manager, Gerrard and Carra. Benteke has said or done nothing whatsoever to be placed on that pedestal.

 

2. Balotelli scored ONE goal all season, Benteke eclipsed that in September.

 

3. He's already scored the same amount of goals as Carroll scored for us in less than half the amount of games.

 

Some of the abuse is well over the top, it's verging on self sabotage. He was being criticised when he was doing well for us as well, so there's definitely agendas at play there. Some people would rather jump on his back and see him crumble under the abuse rather than actually see this team do well this season. 

 

Yep, no context at all. Bolded part, as always. Klopp said something (about 4.30 in) in his post-match presser that I fully agree with; better to create chances and not score than not creating chances at all.

 

I saw plenty of positives last night, and as we've already reached a domestic cup final, I'm not too down after last night's defeat. I was more frustrated than angry at the time, and still feel like that today.

 

Unlike most others on here, I'm actually not too disheartened with our striking/attacking options. In Ings, Origi, Benteke, Firmino, Coutinho we have a very good blend of pace, skill, engergy and power. Add Sturridge into that and we're golden. If he can't get 10-12 games until the season ends, we might have to look at someone else, but this is actually the part of the team that I think we're closest to our rivals (those that should be our rivals at least). Origi, Firmino and Benteke have taken a bit longer than hoped to settle in, but I think a lot of that can be attributed to niggles/injuries as well as unfair expectations and not having Sturridge to lean on at all. Even if Sturridge breaks down again and we don't bring someone else in, I think we're competitive in this department.

 

How refreshing was it last night to see an actual central midfielder in our team again? I said before the game that I was a bit sceptical about Chirivella starting, as he had looked a bit lost in his previous couple of cameos. He had one (maybe two?) cameos in pre-season where I thought there was something to build on, but he looked a bit overawed with the pace/physicality the last couple. Last night I thought he was a revelation to our play. Short, simple passes, give-and go's, composure, always wanting the ball (even under tight pressure). If I was Klopp I'd make Henderson, Milner and Can watch him on player cam for the next two or three days. Granted he doesn't have the physical attributes of Henderson and Milner, but that is how a CM should take charge of the game. Some joker on here (Grinch?) claimed yesterday was an example of hoofball, to me it was the complete opposite. I actually thought that was as good a performance as what we've seen all season in terms of controlled/build-up attacking play. Granted our pressing game (and finishing) was better in the away games at City, Southampton and Chelsea, but all those teams play completely differently to West Ham. 

 

I can't really fault Benteke either. This patch he's going through reminds me a bit of Crouch's when he was here. He can't buy a goal at the moment. Ironically, Benteke has proven (unlike Crouch at the time) that he CAN finish at PL and international level, yet we're desperate for him to fail. I don't know if it's the fee, anti-Rodgers, xenophobia, or him not being short-arse and/or "sexy" enough. It's bordering on ridiculous the way some people are going overboard with his performances for us. Sure, I've been a bit disappointed in him, but it's not like he's been brutal in every single game he's played. His biggest problem so far is that he hasn't put away the clear-cut chances he's been having, as well as the team struggling to keep it tight at the back. I agree with those saying his movement in the box has been a problem so far, but I think last night was a big improvement in that regard. To be fair to him, having Lallana, Ibe, Moreno and Clyne as your main suppliers of through balls and crosses doesn't help in regards to movement in the box. Whenever he's made a run, Lallana makes four extra step-overs, or Ibe decides to take on another player before the balls runs out of play. Fowler would look poor with Lallana and Ibe supplying him, that's how poor their decision-making is.

 

You know what, I'm actually not too disheartened by our defensive options either. Clyne and Flanagan at RB, Moreno and Smith at LB. Pace in abundance, and Flanno can play the times we know we will be more on the back foot. Him and Smith were at fault for WH's first yesterday, but there was plenty to be cheerful about, especially from Smith. Lucas adds another option to our CB's and Illori might actually make it at PL level too if he bulks up a bit.

 

My biggest concern at the moment is our horrendous goalkeeper. I don't think I've seen a keeper for us have so little going for him. Dudek, possibly, but at least he had cat-like reflexes at times. All the others had either size (Kirkland, James, Friedel) or reflexes (Dudek, Grobbelaar) or an understanding of the game (Reina) that masked some of their flaws (all of them struggling at times with the commanding of our box). With Mignolet I can't see anything positive I'm afraid. His GK skills/hands are poor, his commanding of the box non-existent, and the less said about the distribution the better. He just lets so many shots pass him, not being even close to saving them. Take yesterday. Only world-class goalies saves the first, but the second I'd back most of the keepers in the Prem to get a hand on. Look at the way he moves across the goal for both goals last night. He's not in control of his body, and the mini-jump he does before jumping has cost us about 10 goals over the last year. His positioning is generally awful, but as he's so gangly, he's often moving in the wrong direction. As someone else on this thread has already mentioned, him being given a 5 year-contract is up there as our biggest transfer/contract balls-up ever.

 

Get a new keeper in, restructure the midfield (hopefully one of Grujic, Brannagan, Chirivella or Stewart can take the place of Henderson and/or Can) and I think we're close to the other top four contenders. Sturridge being fit alone would have gone a long way to bridging the gap to Spurs this season, and us having someone like de Gea in addition would have made us title contenders.

 

A bit of rambling in the end, can't be arsed to edit. I'll stand by most of it!

[Hades]

Claiming Liverpool fans are desparate for Benteke to fail has to be up there with the most risible bollocks JP has posted on this forum.

[Boss]

I can't really fault Benteke either. This patch he's going through reminds me a bit of Crouch's when he was here. He can't buy a goal at the moment. Ironically, Benteke has proven (unlike Crouch at the time) that he CAN finish at PL and international level, yet we're desperate for him to fail. I don't know if it's the fee, anti-Rodgers, xenophobia, or him not being short-arse and/or "sexy" enough. It's bordering on ridiculous the way some people are going overboard with his performances for us. Sure, I've been a bit disappointed in him, but it's not like he's been brutal in every single game he's played. His biggest problem so far is that he hasn't put away the clear-cut chances he's been having, as well as the team struggling to keep it tight at the back. I agree with those saying his movement in the box has been a problem so far, but I think last night was a big improvement in that regard. To be fair to him, having Lallana, Ibe, Moreno and Clyne as your main suppliers of through balls and crosses doesn't help in regards to movement in the box. Whenever he's made a run, Lallana makes four extra step-overs, or Ibe decides to take on another player before the balls runs out of play. Fowler would look poor with Lallana and Ibe supplying him, that's how poor their decision-making is.

 

I agree with that. I think it's the fee and the style of football that he personifies, hoof ball mainly. I don't see him as a hoof ball merchant at all. I think he's unfairly lumped into that category with the likes of Carroll when he's several levels above in his hold up play, link up play and just all round ability.

 

He gets compared to Heskey but i think he's far better than Heskey as well. Heskey was a buffoon, one of the most frustrating players we've ever had. I remember Carroll beating the keeper at Newcastle and then diving to the floor because he shit himself that he was going to score against his boyhood club, Benteke wouldn't do that shit. A lot of selective memory going on.

 

Drogba who is the archetypal striker that we wish Benteke to be only scored 10 goals in his first season at Chelsea. Benteke could easily hit that by the end of the season. Could've been on 20+ if he was full of confidence and took his chances.

 

I just think we're making a mistake trying to push this lad to the door when Origi has never hit double figures in his life, Ings may be perma crocked when he comes back from the cruciate ligament injury and lets face it he was no world beater to begin with and Sturridge can't be relied upon to play 2 games back to back never mind a full season in all comps.

 

Then you've got a player that's hit double figures in every season he's played in the premier league including a long term injury within two of those seasons, that's scored 6 goals from 12 premier league starts and he's not good enough, yet Origi and Ings are? doesn't make any sense.

[lebron]

Claiming Liverpool fans are desparate for Benteke to fail has to be up there with the most risible bollocks JP has posted on this forum.

 

Well, you could be forgiven for thinking that posters on here were Liverpool fans, as it is indeed a Liverpool football forum. That Grinch and a few others on here want him to fail is clear as day, whether they are Liverpool fans (or supporters!) is perhaps more murky a subject.

 

The only time I've had similar feelings (like those wanting Benteke out/to fail) for someone connected to our great club, was after the sacking of Rafa when Hodgson got appointed. I knew it could never work, so wanted him to fail quickly rather than a long drawn-out process. I was pretty entrenched in the the view that we did the wrong thing getting rid of a great manager when it was obvious we had much bigger problems than that. I probably wouldn't have welcomed too many other candidates either, but knowing a few footballers having played under the Hodge I knew he'd be wrong. I hated him before he entered the Shankly gates. I'm not proud of that, but him leaving us quickly was the best thing for everyone involved. Wanting a player to actively fail so that you can be right with your stance is just borderline psycho behaviour though. 

[Dr. J]

Henderson has been here for 4 years and healthy or otherwise is not going to get any better. He's little more than a squad player.

 

If FSG believe in their own model, now is the perfect time to sell him, although I doubt many clubs would be in for him at that price. we'd be lucky to get what we paid for him.

[lebron]

I agree with that. I think it's the fee and the style of football that he personifies, hoof ball mainly. I don't see him as a hoof ball merchant at all. I think he's unfairly lumped into that category with the likes of Carroll when he's several levels above in his hold up play, link up play and just all round ability.

 

He gets compared to Heskey but i think he's far better than Heskey as well. Heskey was a buffoon, one of the most frustrating players we've ever had. I remember Carroll beating the keeper at Newcastle and then diving to the floor because he shit himself that he was going to score against his boyhood club, Benteke wouldn't do that shit. A lot of selective memory going on.

 

Drogba who is the archetypal striker that we wish Benteke to be only scored 10 goals in his first season at Chelsea. Benteke could easily hit that by the end of the season. Could've been on 20+ if he was full of confidence and took his chances.

 

I just think we're making a mistake trying to push this lad to the door when Origi has never hit double figures in his life, Ings may be perma crocked when he comes back from the cruciate ligament injury and lets face it he was no world beater to begin with and Sturridge can't be relied upon to play 2 games back to back never mind a full season in all comps.

 

Then you've got a player that's hit double figures in every season he's played in the premier league including a long term injury within two of those seasons, that's scored 6 goals from 12 premier league starts and he's not good enough, yet Origi and Ings are? doesn't make any sense.

 

Exactly. I still think Klopp sees a future for him here, especially as Sturridge can't be relied upon. Those hoping he'll be sold at the earliest opportunity are going to have quite a few months to endure yet imo. That he's going through a rough patch in terms of scoring is as Klopp said something every striker in the world endures some time or another.

 

Any worries people have had about us needing to change our game a lot for him to play can rewatch that game from yesterday. Unfortunately, the decision making by some of our senior players are making Benteke look a lot worse than he actually is. Teixeira and Coutinho (yesterday) have done more in a few minutes for him than Milner (Soton assist excluded), Henderson, Can, Lallana and (in particular) have done all season. 

 

I'll admit I've been slightly worried that he doesn't make the "correct" runs into the box, but he's been used to a different type of service. Watch his headed chance from yesterday, I think that's his ideal cross into the box. Hang the ball up, a couple of steps, two-footed jump and he'll crush both CB's and especially FBs in his way. He's constantly waving for the other players to provide that, I think only Tex and Smith have obliged so far. He's missed the couple he's had here, but his history of scoring those type of goals tell me that is temporary. He should probably vary his movement in the box, but having several full time video analysts I'm guessing he'll have had (or at least will have in the near future) that pointed out to him already.

[3 Stacks]

I agree with that. I think it's the fee and the style of football that he personifies, hoof ball mainly. I don't see him as a hoof ball merchant at all. I think he's unfairly lumped into that category with the likes of Carroll when he's several levels above in his hold up play, link up play and just all round ability.

 

He gets compared to Heskey but i think he's far better than Heskey as well. Heskey was a buffoon, one of the most frustrating players we've ever had. I remember Carroll beating the keeper at Newcastle and then diving to the floor because he shit himself that he was going to score against his boyhood club, Benteke wouldn't do that shit. A lot of selective memory going on.

 

Drogba who is the archetypal striker that we wish Benteke to be only scored 10 goals in his first season at Chelsea. Benteke could easily hit that by the end of the season. Could've been on 20+ if he was full of confidence and took his chances.

 

I just think we're making a mistake trying to push this lad to the door when Origi has never hit double figures in his life, Ings may be perma crocked when he comes back from the cruciate ligament injury and lets face it he was no world beater to begin with and Sturridge can't be relied upon to play 2 games back to back never mind a full season in all comps.

 

Then you've got a player that's hit double figures in every season he's played in the premier league including a long term injury within two of those seasons, that's scored 6 goals from 12 premier league starts and he's not good enough, yet Origi and Ings are? doesn't make any sense.

 

People hate Benteke because they view him as Rodgers' nonsensical, last resort parting shot to save his job. He's basically the symbol of our troubles in the transfer market in recent years. Bought from a smaller club, "Premier League proven", and incredibly overpriced. So many people predicted he would fail and his troubles just reinforce this notion they had. He's past the point of no return. He could finish with a 1 in 2 goal record this season and everyone would still want him gone.

 

His goal record hasn't been bad here but all things considered, he's missed so many chances and his overall game has been crap. The comparisons to Carroll or Heskey are stupid but considering his transfer fee and wages,  I don't think you can say the criticism has been unjustified. 

[Dr. J]

His good runs last night were mainly because Sturridge and Origi were on the pitch finally opening up some room for him to run into.

 

As for not scoring, wasn't it 16 games or something before Crouch scored - Rafa stuck with him and he became a decent player for us, and every other team he's been with since.

 

The last thing to be patient with is patience.

[Russ Atmosphere]

Exactly. I still think Klopp sees a future for him here, especially as Sturridge can't be relied upon. Those hoping he'll be sold at the earliest opportunity are going to have quite a few months to endure yet imo.

He's been our only fit, specialised striker for months and Klopp has persistently left him out of the team. With our recent history of moving on high earners not figuring for the team, and him being in the top two earners at the club, well...