Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Rico1304]

There's a great story about his dad, a broken down car and Marble Arch.

[skend04]

How do you know they're racists and dickheads ?

Dickhead is pretty self evident. Racist? I'm fairly sure Johnson has called black people 'picaninnies'. Apart from racists, who else call black people picaninnies with watermelon smiles?

[Sputnik1]

How do you know they're racists and dickheads ?

 

 

He's filling it in with speculation about scaremongering and fantasy. There's utter twats on both sides of the argument, and quite predictably a lot are focussing on the people and not the issues. 

 

I'm not suddenly a racist, nationalist or a dickhead if I want to leave, nor am I none of those things should I want to vote to stay. Although that now seems to be the argument. I'm utterly fed up with the whole thing, no wonder so many people are apathetic about voting. 

[PestiRed]

You're definitely a dickhead if you want to leave. If you don't believe me, take a good, hard look at all the people on the telly that are arguing to leave. Then ask yourself this question, "do I need to be a dickhead to align myself with these people?"

 

You can thank me later

[Turkish Delight]

Pretty much every leave argument I read is littered with sensationalist phrases that look like they've been lifted straight from the Express or the Mail. Usually they contain buzzwords about unelected Brussels fat cats (ignoring that we have a monarchy) and 'cushy numbers' for bureacrats. They are often littered with casual racism about the 'lazy' French or Greeks and lies about the cost of immigration to the UK despite it producing a net surplus to the economy. They often exaggerate the cost of being in the EU to the UK as they quote numbers that are spun to look bigger than they are (see fullfact.org for the true ones). They also regularly refer to how we fought in wars to maintain independence as if there's no difference between living in a country ruled by Nazi Germany and the one we live in now.

 

There's a reason that these media outlets talk in such bullshit and it's because their billionaire owners want us to leave for their own benefit. Getting rid of the EU appeals to them as they believe that business should run the economy with no state intervention (other than to provide financial incentives to businesses of course) but various EU laws that protect people are a barrier to their ultimate 'utopia' as they prevent the UK government from scrapping things such as maternity leave, paid annual leave, redundancy protection and the right to appeal unfair dismissals. They know harping on about that wouldn't be a vote winner so they talk bullshit instead knowing that it will dupe enough gullible souls into voting against their own interests. It's the tried and tested method that sees us elect a Tory government and it may well be successful this time too.

 

To anyone who keeps spouting the arguments above I suggest you look at the facts independently away from the mainstream media.

[Sputnik1]

You're definitely a dickhead if you want to stay. If you don't believe me, take a good, hard look at all the people on the telly that are arguing to stay. Then ask yourself this question, "do I need to be a dickhead to align myself with these people?"

 

You can thank me later

 

 

Yeah that made total sense to me. Finally made up my mind. 

[VladimirIlyich]

Pretty much every leave argument I read is littered with sensationalist phrases that look like they've been lifted straight from the Express or the Mail. Usually they contain buzzwords about unelected Brussels fat cats (ignoring that we have a monarchy) and 'cushy numbers' for bureacrats. They are often littered with casual racism about the 'lazy' French or Greeks and lies about the cost of immigration to the UK despite it producing a net surplus to the economy. They often exaggerate the cost of being in the EU to the UK as they quote numbers that are spun to look bigger than they are (see fullfact.org for the true ones). They also regularly refer to how we fought in wars to maintain independence as if there's no difference between living in a country ruled by Nazi Germany and the one we live in now.There's a reason that these media outlets talk in such bullshit and it's because their billionaire owners want us to leave for their own benefit. Getting rid of the EU appeals to them as they believe that business should run the economy with no state intervention (other than to provide financial incentives to businesses of course) but various EU laws that protect people are a barrier to their ultimate 'utopia' as they prevent the UK government from scrapping things such as maternity leave, paid annual leave, redundancy protection and the right to appeal unfair dismissals. They know harping on about that wouldn't be a vote winner so they talk bullshit instead knowing that it will dupe enough gullible souls into voting against their own interests. It's the tried and tested method that sees us elect a Tory government and it may well be successful this time too.To anyone who keeps spouting the arguments above I suggest you look at the facts independently away from the mainstream media.

Excellent post.

[Gnasher]

Pretty much every leave argument I read is littered with sensationalist phrases that look like they've been lifted straight from the Express or the Mail. Usually they contain buzzwords about unelected Brussels fat cats (ignoring that we have a monarchy) and 'cushy numbers' for bureacrats. They are often littered with casual racism about the 'lazy' French or Greeks and lies about the cost of immigration to the UK despite it producing a net surplus to the economy. They often exaggerate the cost of being in the EU to the UK as they quote numbers that are spun to look bigger than they are (see fullfact.org for the true ones). They also regularly refer to how we fought in wars to maintain independence as if there's no difference between living in a country ruled by Nazi Germany and the one we live in now.There's a reason that these media outlets talk in such bullshit and it's because their billionaire owners want us to leave for their own benefit. Getting rid of the EU appeals to them as they believe that business should run the economy with no state intervention (other than to provide financial incentives to businesses of course) but various EU laws that protect people are a barrier to their ultimate 'utopia' as they prevent the UK government from scrapping things such as maternity leave, paid annual leave, redundancy protection and the right to appeal unfair dismissals. They know harping on about that wouldn't be a vote winner so they talk bullshit instead knowing that it will dupe enough gullible souls into voting against their own interests. It's the tried and tested method that sees us elect a Tory government and it may well be successful this time too.To anyone who keeps spouting the arguments above I suggest you look at the facts independently away from the mainstream media.

Whilst it's true the people making the case for leaving may be "sensationaist" and may be over cooked but that does not make them wrong.

 

As for the EU preventing "our" government from scrapping things like maternity leave, that's our own governments fault, let's strip them naked, make them sort of accountable for the shit they put on us, let's make them show their colours, once and for all.

 

Then and only then will people in this country start to wake up and see what a bunch of self interest cunts they have ruling them.

 

What the fuck have the working class got to be afraid of? Shouldn't be afraid of anything, let the ten year fight begin.

[Turkish Delight]

 

 

Whilst it's true the people making the case for leaving may be "sensationaist" and may be over cooked but that does not make them wrong.

 

As for the EU preventing "our" government from scrapping things like maternity leave, that's our own governments fault, let's strip them naked, make them sort of accountable for the shit they put on us, let's make them show their colours, once and for all.

 

Then and only then will people in this country start to wake up and see what a bunch of self interest cunts they have ruling them.

 

What the fuck have the working class got to be afraid of? Shouldn't be afraid of anything, let the ten year fight begin.

The point I was making is that if you look for the actual facts you'll see that generally the Leave arguments are sensationalist and untrue. I don't believe the EU is perfect by the way but I've read enough to see it's the better alternative.

 

The working class should be afraid of governments stripping back their rights and the possible recession that would in my own opinion be very likely triggered by the uncertainty of trading conditions after a leave vote. Neither of those will affect the rich too much and the apathy in this country won't be shaken off easily especially with the media vilifying anyone who steps out of line.

 

On the subject of stripping back people's rights no government is stupid enough to do that sort of thing instantly. It would be drip by drip so that people would not notice the subtle changes and they would use things like recessions to force through the big stuff as things needed for 'progress' and to 'make things better'. It would be the sort of thing you'd look back on in 20 or 30 years and see the big differences of what had changed.

[Longview1982]

He's filling it in with speculation about scaremongering and fantasy. There's utter twats on both sides of the argument, and quite predictably a lot are focussing on the people and not the issues. 

 

I'm not suddenly a racist, nationalist or a dickhead if I want to leave, nor am I none of those things should I want to vote to stay. Although that now seems to be the argument. I'm utterly fed up with the whole thing, no wonder so many people are apathetic about voting. 

Agree completely. The sheer mendacity of the most prominent supporters of each side is totally dispiriting. I've always been a firm believer in participating in the democratic process and ensuring I vote every time I'm eligible, but the prospect of voting on the same side as some of the shameless lying bastards in both campaigns almost makes me feel like giving this one a miss. 

 

Both sides are indulging in total guesswork and passing it off as fact. 

[Longview1982]

 

The point I was making is that if you look for the actual facts you'll see that generally the Leave arguments are sensationalist and untrue. I don't believe the EU is perfect by the way but I've read enough to see it's the better alternative.

 

The working class should be afraid of governments stripping back their rights and the possible recession that would in my own opinion be very likely triggered by the uncertainty of trading conditions after a leave vote. Neither of those will affect the rich too much and the apathy in this country won't be shaken off easily especially with the media vilifying anyone who steps out of line.

 

On the subject of stripping back people's rights no government is stupid enough to do that sort of thing instantly. It would be drip by drip so that people would not notice the subtle changes and they would use things like recessions to force through the big stuff as things needed for 'progress' and to 'make things better'. It would be the sort of thing you'd look back on in 20 or 30 years and see the big differences of what had changed.

 

What "facts" are you referring to? Almost all of it, on both sides, is simply speculation with the supposed outcome or consequence derived from a set of assumptions wholly biased to offer the best of their own side and the worst of the other. Which "independent" source are you referring to when you keep saying "look at the facts"?

 

You yourself are falling into the scaremongering trap when speaking of how we should be "afraid......the possible recession that would in my own opinion be very likely triggered by the uncertainty of trading conditions after a leave vote....". As though being part of the EU has insulated us from recession and as though being part of the EU has meant stable, predictable trading and not that the EU suffered an almost total financial collapse very recently.

 

It's perfectly fine to have and express your views and how you hope the vote goes, but spare us the constant references to "facts" and at least open your eyes to just how both campaigns are massively flawed and dishonest.

[Longview1982]

You're definitely a dickhead if you want to leave. If you don't believe me, take a good, hard look at all the people on the telly that are arguing to leave. Then ask yourself this question, "do I need to be a dickhead to align myself with these people?"

 

You can thank me later

 

So aligning yourself with Cameron and Osborne is company you want to keep? Yeah, I can see how they're massively preferential to the Leave campaigners.......

[Turkish Delight]

 

 

What "facts" are you referring to? Almost all of it, on both sides, is simply speculation with the supposed outcome or consequence derived from a set of assumptions wholly biased to offer the best of their own side and the worst of the other. Which "independent" source are you referring to when you keep saying "look at the facts"?

 

You yourself are falling into the scaremongering trap when speaking of how we should be "afraid......the possible recession that would in my own opinion be very likely triggered by the uncertainty of trading conditions after a leave vote....". As though being part of the EU has insulated us from recession and as though being part of the EU has meant stable, predictable trading and not that the EU suffered an almost total financial collapse very recently.

 

It's perfectly fine to have and express your views and how you hope the vote goes, but spare us the constant references to "facts" and at least open your eyes to just how both campaigns are massively flawed and dishonest.

Fullfact.org is an independent charity that checks what politicians say and it's where you can check out actual financials to date and see the real cost to the government of the EU and things such as the cost of immigration.

 

The recession being a possibility is based on basic economic theory that uncertainty is bad for the economy and it is not just an opinion that what follows a Leave vote would create more uncertain trading conditions. Being in the EU doesn't protect us from recession but the uncertainty caused by us leaving the EU does increase the possibilty that our already weak economy would go into recession in the short term.

[Spy Bee]

Apparently leaving could cause World War III now. Sharks being jumped everywhere!

[skend04]

Apparently leaving could cause World War III now. Sharks being jumped everywhere!

Terrible that my vote is same side as Cameron.

[Strontium]

What "facts" are you referring to? Almost all of it, on both sides, is simply speculation with the supposed outcome or consequence derived from a set of assumptions wholly biased to offer the best of their own side and the worst of the other.

 

It is a fact that leaving the EU will strip us all of the rights that the EU guarantees us, including (but not limited to) the automatic right to live in another EU country, to work in another EU country, to own property in another EU country, the rest breaks and holidays we enjoy under EU employment law, the right to purchase goods from another EU country without incurring customs duty, and dozens more rights that I have neither the time nor knowledge to list here.

 

If you think it worth giving up all these things for whatever nebulous alleged benefits leaving the EU will give us (literally all of which appear to be based on keeping foreigners out of the country) then all well and good, but do not claim that this stuff is all pie in the sky.

[skend04]

It is a fact that leaving the EU will strip us all of the rights that the EU guarantees us, including (but not limited to) the automatic right to live in another EU country, to work in another EU country, to own property in another EU country, the rest breaks and holidays we enjoy under EU employment law, the right to purchase goods from another EU country without incurring customs duty, and dozens more rights that I have neither the time nor knowledge to list here.

 

If you think it worth giving up all these things for whatever nebulous alleged benefits leaving the EU will give us (literally all of which appear to be based on keeping foreigners out of the country) then all well and good, but do not claim that this stuff is all pie in the sky.

Add to that there's a groundswell of opinion among small businesses that things like maternity pay, working time directives and the minimum wage are a weight on their ability to compete then whoever works in that sector will be in for a shock.

[Rico1304]

Add to that there's a groundswell of opinion among small businesses that things like maternity pay, working time directives and the minimum wage are a weight on their ability to compete then whoever works in that sector will be in for a shock.

If they can vote to reduce max benefits, force the disabled to find work then reducing maternity pay and holidays will be a piece of piss.

[Longview1982]

 

Fullfact.org is an independent charity that checks what politicians say and it's where you can check out actual financials to date and see the real cost to the government of the EU and things such as the cost of immigration.

 

The recession being a possibility is based on basic economic theory that uncertainty is bad for the economy and it is not just an opinion that what follows a Leave vote would create more uncertain trading conditions. Being in the EU doesn't protect us from recession but the uncertainty caused by us leaving the EU does increase the possibilty that our already weak economy would go into recession in the short term.

 

You're kind of missing the point here. Most of the public campaigning has focused on economic forecasts (or "guesswork" as it's more accurately described). No organisation has any "facts" when it comes to this and Fullfact.org can only say "here's a view that says we'll be better off and here's one that says we'll be worse off". They offer no more assistance in that respect than a simple Google search.

 

There is no such thing as an independent or objective economic prediction. The whole field of economic prediction is based on assumptions that are biased toward whatever economic theory or interest the group concerned represent. There is no right or wrong in economics - simply various theories on how to get to a particular economic goal or target.

 

Your assertion about it being "basic economic theory" that the frequently quoted "uncertainty" will cause a recession or sever damage to the economy completely ignores the many, many similar "uncertainties" that happen around the world on a constant basis that cause markets to rise and fall and boom and crash. Currencies, US or Chinese monetary policy changes, oil price drops/rises, etc, etc - these things happen all the time and presenting this as being of somehow unique and monumental stature is simply lying.   

 

Market uncertainty exists, and will always exist. Leave or Remain adds little to it that will likely trigger the apocalypse that people like yourself claim it will.

[Sputnik1]

Apparently leaving could cause World War III now. Sharks being jumped everywhere!

 

 

At least it would kill off all those racists and nationalists. 

[Longview1982]

It is a fact that leaving the EU will strip us all of the rights that the EU guarantees us, including (but not limited to) the automatic right to live in another EU country, to work in another EU country, to own property in another EU country, the rest breaks and holidays we enjoy under EU employment law, the right to purchase goods from another EU country without incurring customs duty, and dozens more rights that I have neither the time nor knowledge to list here.

 

If you think it worth giving up all these things for whatever nebulous alleged benefits leaving the EU will give us (literally all of which appear to be based on keeping foreigners out of the country) then all well and good, but do not claim that this stuff is all pie in the sky.

 

When did I say I advocate leaving? I've been pretty clear that the "pie in the sky" is coming from both sides. You should try making fewer assumptions and focus more on the very few factual pieces of info that are out there.

 

There are "rights" that the EU maintains in the UK in the face of governments of any party that I consider extremely valuable (some of the ones you listed are pretty weak to be described as "rights" - the right to own property in another EU country?), but the reality is that isn't the battlefield upon which this referendum is being fought. It's all about the lies from both sides about the effect on the economy.

[Stu Monty]

Apparently leaving could cause World War III now. Sharks being jumped everywhere!

 

Away from any hyperbole, do you not at least accept that the act of union and the act of breaking away from that union do have implications with regards to security and how allied you are deciding to be to your neighbours. As someone quite rightly put up on Twitter the history of Europe is:

 

War, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, arguments about bananas and plugs.

 

I can't really get my head around how blase a lot of people are at the moment about war and peace, as if because you've been alive during an unprecedented period of peace it's going to now be permanent. With the rise of right everywhere we look and the problems that climate change is going to cause just over the horizon I don't see how someone can just ignore the idea that keeping strong ties, and political union, with other European giants is not a serious factor to consider. 

[njackets]

Away from any hyperbole, do you not at least accept that the act of union and the act of breaking away from that union do have implications with regards to security and how allied you are deciding to be to your neighbours. As someone quite rightly put up on Twitter the history of Europe is:

 

War, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, arguments about bananas and plugs.

 

I can't really get my head around how blase a lot of people are at the moment about war and peace, as if because you've been alive during an unprecedented period of peace it's going to now be permanent. With the rise of right everywhere we look and the problems that climate change is going to cause just over the horizon I don't see how someone can just ignore the idea that keeping strong ties, and political union, with other European giants is not a serious factor to consider.

Have you ever heard of this thing called NATO??

[Gnasher]

It is a fact that leaving the EU will strip us all of the rights that the EU guarantees us, including (but not limited to) the automatic right to live in another EU country, to work in another EU country, to own property in another EU country, the rest breaks and holidays we enjoy under EU employment law, the right to purchase goods from another EU country without incurring customs duty, and dozens more rights that I have neither the time nor knowledge to list here.

 

If you think it worth giving up all these things for whatever nebulous alleged benefits leaving the EU will give us (literally all of which appear to be based on keeping foreigners out of the country) then all well and good, but do not claim that this stuff is all pie in the sky.

So we won't have holidays if we leave the EU? thank fuck for that.

[Gnasher]

Away from any hyperbole, do you not at least accept that the act of union and the act of breaking away from that union do have implications with regards to security and how allied you are deciding to be to your neighbours. As someone quite rightly put up on Twitter the history of Europe is:

 

War, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, arguments about bananas and plugs.

 

I can't really get my head around how blase a lot of people are at the moment about war and peace, as if because you've been alive during an unprecedented period of peace it's going to now be permanent. With the rise of right everywhere we look and the problems that climate change is going to cause just over the horizon I don't see how someone can just ignore the idea that keeping strong ties, and political union, with other European giants is not a serious factor to consider.

Do you really believe we could end up with being at war with Germany if we left the EU? Oh do give over.