There is nothing wrong with our midfield

[Coro]

No, no, no, no, NO.

 

 

After all that effort you fail to mention Bruno Soriano

 

Incredible.

[CWD82]

Is there anyone out there now who offers the same as what Mkhitaryan offers?

 

If we could have got him in and played him in the Henderson position that would have been the extra goal threat we need with the same type of energy.

[Coro]

Is there anyone out there now who offers the same as what Mkhitaryan offers?

 

If we could have got him in and played him in the Henderson position that would have been the extra goal threat we need with the same type of energy.

 

A more offensive minded player instead of Henderson would lose us the basis that allows  Suarez and Sturridge to excel. We've got the guile of Coutinho, the energy Henderson provides, Gerrard's experience and Lucas' ability to build from the back. It's a good balance.

[CWD82]

A more offensive minded player instead of Henderson would lose us the basis that allows  Suarez and Sturridge to excel. We've got the guile of Coutinho, the energy Henderson provides, Gerrard's experience and Lucas' ability to build from the back. It's a good balance.

Is their a player out there that gives some of what Henderson does but scores more goals is what I'm asking. I don't know of one but someone might.

 

Henderson is a good player and is doing well for us. He's a great team player like you mention. Just wondering if we could improve on him

[Section_31]

I think you, for the most part, only need a functional midfield to win the league, but that also means scoring goals.

 

Harking back to that Chelsea team of 04/05, it was when they brought in Robben and Drogba that they won the league and only conceded 15 goals all season. They did that with a midfield of Lampard, Tiago and Makelele as the starting 3 (433) and then other game time was shared between Smertin (25 appearances), Scott Parker (11 appearances) and Jarosik (20 appearances), hardly world beaters.

 

The next season they brought in Essien, and he played with Makelele and Lampard, and they got rid of Parker, Smertin, Jarosik and Tiago that Summer. Again, they pissed the league with 91 points.

 

The following season they brought in Ballack and Obi Mikel and they lost the league. They didn't win the league again until 2009/10. There were no more key midfield signings in those three years.

 

But there had to be a goalscorer in that midfield 3, and over the years that person has been Lampard. I think Lampard is a better midfielder than Gerrard, he times his runs perfectly but then again he has played there for years whereas Gerrard has played in different positions under different styles which has disrupted him in this position.

 

Lampards goals, in the PL, from central midfield:

 

04/05 - 13

05/06 - 16

06/07 - 11

07/08 - 10

08/09 - 12

09/10 - 22

10/11 - 10

11/12 - 11

12/13 - 15

 

Sure, a fair few were pens, he averages about 9 - 10 goals a year without pens. That's what gets you over the line. He's consistent as fuck whereas Gerrard has been explosive but with bigger peaks also comes bigger troughs.

 

One of your midfield 3 MUST have goals in him, and we're talking a goal every third game in effect. Do we have that? Not any more.

 

It's all well and good having an Essien or Makelele or Tiago in your midfield, but they won't win you games.

 

 

 

I've got ideas, mostly shit, about who can come in and I've done it in other threads. But off the top of my head now, I'd love to see Michu brought in and played as a central midfielder, I like to see if that would work. Because we aint going to afford Vidal or Schweinsteiger, we're going to have to think a bit laterally about it. Like Bayern did with Schweinsteiger! Used to be a winger...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Chelsea's midfield was the best in Europe or anything by a long stretch, but they were fast, athletic and able to get the ball back with Makalele. They were consistent - crucially - and played in a three so where able to overwhelm most partnerships, or at least outmaneuver them. If they didn't, their wingers and Lampard wouldn't have had the ball to do any damage in the first place.

 

Our midfield doesn't need to be Petit and Zidane, but it needs to not be lightweight, inconsistent, slow, unable to pass with any great vision and unable to win the ball back - which is all of the things it is now, and has been for a couple of years.

[Guest LFD]

Our midfield doesn't need to be Petit and Zidane, but it needs to not be lightweight, inconsistent, slow, unable to pass with any great vision and unable to win the ball back - which is all of the things it is now, and has been for a couple of years.

 

So Gerrard is unable to pass with any great vision?  I guess you need to include Coutinho as well, given he is in midfield.

 

Lucas is unable to win the ball back? (Despite winning more tackles than anyone in the league)

 

Henderson is slow?

 

What a dreadful post!

[Brigant Moloch]

So Gerrard is unable to pass with any great vision?  I guess you need to include Coutinho as well, given he is in midfield.

 

Lucas is unable to win the ball back? (Despite winning more tackles than anyone in the league)

 

Henderson is slow?

 

What a dreadful post!

 

to be fair, winning most tackles in the league means nothing. It's the percentage of won tackles which is important and Lucas is the player with one of the worst won tackles % in top 5 leagues of Europe. Check stats. He could do 100 tackles per game, win 50, he'll be top of the league with 50 tackles - great.. We need a player who wins at least 84-90% tackles in the game (based on stats of best DMs across Europe), Lucas' average is 72-74%. Two key stats for a defensive midfielder is a tackle success percentage and dribbled past. Lucas is very poor at both and there are no stats for missed interceptions, misread passes, times being out of position, loosing your man, no pressing in the right area in the right time, lack of tracking back. He's constantly not where he should be defence-wise. Winning a shitload of tackles doesn't make you a boss defensive midfielder and there's some serious lack of basic knowledge about this position among our fanbase and constant stream of headlines about "Lucas bossing games" from LFC.tv does not help and covers some serious issues mentioned above. You'll find no information about them on LFC.tv, trust me;) Only someone either blind or with some serious problems with understanding the basics of the game would claim there's nothing wrong with our midfield. There IS something wrong and the fact we're struggling against any team with decent midfield speaks for itself. AGAIN I'm blabbering about defensive midfielders but it's an apple in my eye and kind of fetish and such ignorance baffles me. Jesus fucking Christ lads, just watch some games and try to think about our defensive line as one unit where every move of every player matters, where there's constant communication, where being out position causes serious trouble, instead of focusing on individual performances and hollywood tackles. 

 

[Jose Jones]

Are you the dude who reckons we won't finish in the top 10 if we pick Gerrard and Lucas as the midfield?

[Brigant Moloch]

yes mate, that's me and I'm sorry to say so but that is what I feel, sorry to bother you with my negative & earthbound approach

[Jose Jones]

yes mate, that's me and I'm sorry to say so but that is what I feel, sorry to bother you with my negative & earthbound approach

 

Just checking.  

 

Considering that we are currently 2nd and considering that we haven't finished lower than 8th in the top division since we were last promoted in 1962 (despite the best efforts of some owners, managers and players) that it might be you that is not entirely earthbound in your thinking?

 

Not intending offence here, just wondering if you have considered this little bit of perspective.

[Brigant Moloch]

Yes, I've had. But considering we've played 3 teams with good midfield, lost two and (luckily) tied one, (+lost against mancs in carling cup), struggled in majority of our games in that area and with the league being very tight this year (just 6 points dividing 5th mancs and the 10th spot) I have a lot of concerns and I'm worried we won't last on top basing on luck, Suarez & Sturridge and soft midfield. Add to that Chelsea, City and spurs will only get better. No offense taken of course.

[Jose Jones]

Yes, I've had. But considering we've played 3 teams with good midfield, lost two and (luckily) tied one, (+lost against mancs in carling cup), struggled in majority of our games in that area and with the league being very tight this year (just 6 points dividing 5th mancs and the 10th spot) I have a lot of concerns and I'm worried we won't last on top basing on luck, Suarez & Sturridge and soft midfield. Add to that Chelsea, City and spurs will only get better. No offense taken of course.

 

Right, fair enough I suppose.

What about aws's stat from earlier in the thread where we historically average 2 points a game with Lucas and Gerrard in the team?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't think we will finish 10th, but I do think he makes a solid case about the midfield. However, we played against a good midfield unit against WBA and docked them.

 

Anyway, buy Fernando and Matic, push Gerrard forward. Ta. I wonder how many people would want the Lucas and Gerrard midfield back then.

[Jose Jones]

Buying two new centre midfielders in the middle of the season and asking Gerrard to play in a position that requires more running would make the team worse though.  Never mind that we probably don't have the money for it.

[Coro]

Buying two new centre midfielders in the middle of the season and asking Gerrard to play in a position that requires more running would make the team worse though.  Never mind that we probably don't have the money for it.

 

Exactly. It's pure fantasy.

 

Signing a full back who can play on either side of the defence would be ideal.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Buying two new centre midfielders in the middle of the season and asking Gerrard to play in a position that requires more running would make the team worse though. Never mind that we probably don't have the money for it.

Coro is right that it's pure fantasy, but I think that post is wild as hell. Firstly, I don't think he'd have to do more running. As for making the team worse... Well, I don't even understand that.

[Brigant Moloch]

It's not a fantasy and it's the way forward, the sooner we get this done the better I think. We already know there will be a replacement for Lucas in January but ideally I'd like us to sign two midfielders - one DM, sitting deep in front of defensive line with great passing range and tactical awareness  and one box-to-box tackling maschine with ability to initiate an attack in vein of Matic, Martinez, Witsel, Reges, Vidal, Pogba, Paulinho etc. These players are out of our range but there are plenty great & available for both positions. I'd love us to sign M'Vila and Sebastian Rode, they'd cost ~16-20mil combined and would be the better version of Wanyama/Schneiderlin duo - DM sitting deep and organizing defensive play and other a roaming destroyer. It's a perfect setup for possession-based football and would allow us to control games like arsenal, southampton, spurs etc. do. We'd have to act quick and smart because Bayern Munich are sniffing around Rode as he'll be out of contract in a few months and they are are looking for a long-term replacement for Schweinsteiger, he would be my ideal box-to-box player for our midfield but there are other available, I hope Hunter, Fallows & co. are not fucking around and there's a huge list of targets for Jan & Summer.

[Pureblood]

Yes, I've had. But considering we've played 3 teams with good midfield, lost two and (luckily) tied one, (+lost against mancs in carling cup).

So you're counting the defeat in the capital one cup to the mancs but not the time we beat them in the league. That's not at all an imbalanced view of matters.

[Guest LFD]

to be fair, winning most tackles in the league means nothing. It's the percentage of won tackles which is important and Lucas is the player with one of the worst won tackles % in top 5 leagues of Europe. Check stats. 

 

I find that very hard to believe.

 

% of tackles won doesn't tell the whole story either as many Lucas is getting in a position to win more tackles than many other DM's, who sit back, where as Lucas rushes.

 

We can manipulate stats as much as we like.  You are probably going to look for stats to make Lucas look poor as you don't see to rate him that highly.  I think he is a very good player, I won't go out of my way to look at stats for him - I just saw the tackles stat on twitter and thought people might find it interesting.

 

I don't need stats to tell me he's a very good player, you'd probably argue you don't need stats to tell you he isn't. 

[Gym Beglin]

I'd love us to sign M'Vila and Sebastian Rode, they'd cost ~16-20mil combined and would be the better version of Wanyama/Schneiderlin duo -

I take issue with this. Not because I don't think they're good players, because I do...but because I don't think they give as much of a shit as you'd like them to.

 

This is what made Lampard a great midfielder for Chelsea, he gave 100% and he was consistent as fuck and even in games where the bounces didn't go for him, he still covered every blade of grass and contributed.

 

I think it's very difficult to find foreign players who will aspire to the very best they can be in every game, though of course we have been lucky down the years with Hamann, Masch and Alonso, but they were very special players. I wouldn't trust someone like MVila as far as I could throw him, there is a mercenary element to a lot of foreign players these days, especially those who follow money rather than aspire to the CL.

 

I'd rather search hard and long and perhaps pay a little more for a player who stays with us for 5 years, than put a little less effort in and have to repeat the process in 2 years.

 

I think that Shelvey might be worth revisiting in 2 years time, see if he's matured a bit, because he reminds me a lot of the sort of player you want in your midfield. He's got a shot on him, he's big and strong and full of confidence and he isn't scared of a tackle.

 

I think the German lads are excellent, the work rate instilled in them is perfectly suited to the PL, whereas the Dutch and the French sometimes are left lacking in the effort department, and as a result there are problems with consistency. Not always, but less reliable than the Germans.

 

I think the two most standout candidates at present are Aaron Ramsey and Ross Barkley, though Fellaini could still turn his shit around as well. It fucking annoying that our Everton issue prevents us from competing to sign those two, or Baines, or even Rooney once upon a time. Other people think that Chalobah will be the next Lampard, I don't agree, nor do I agree about McEachran, with 72 career appearances at age 20 but still yet to score a goal, doesn't bode well.

 

I wonder if James Milner could play through the middle and get a few goals?

[Brigant Moloch]

So you're counting the defeat in the capital one cup to the mancs but not the time we beat them in the league. That's not at all an imbalanced view of matters.

 

I am afraid You can't understand what I'm trying to say and You don't see the bigger picture but I'm glad You've mentioned first game against united because both games vs mancs are perfect illustration of argument that basing purely on luck, Saurez-Sturridge and weak midfield will backfire and we can't keep going like that for too long. First game in league against them was scoring an early goal and parking the bus, we hold on, gave them all of the possession, were lucky and won. In the second game in carling cup they were all over our non-existent midfield once again, we couldn't hold on, they scored, game lost. It's not a difficult case for teams to figure out where our weakness is and they're starting to take advantage of our midfield and learn how to play against us, which is not a rocket since when You look at the balance of our midfield. It's great we are 2nd in the table but it's because of our strikers and couple of brilliant saves by Mignolet. We can't keep going like that and count on that Daniel or Luis will score enough. It's irresponsible, short-sighted and problems need to be solved, not covered in naive belief that "naaah, we're going to be ok, just give the ball to Luis and he'll do something". That's a sign of lowering the bar and abject mediocrity to which our fans are sadly used to. 

 

I find that very hard to believe.

 

% of tackles won doesn't tell the whole story either as many Lucas is getting in a position to win more tackles than many other DM's, who sit back, where as Lucas rushes.

 

We can manipulate stats as much as we like.  You are probably going to look for stats to make Lucas look poor as you don't see to rate him that highly.  I think he is a very good player, I won't go out of my way to look at stats for him - I just saw the tackles stat on twitter and thought people might find it interesting.

 

I don't need stats to tell me he's a very good player, you'd probably argue you don't need stats to tell you he isn't. 

 

It's not about believing it or not, it's about facts. I'm not obsessed with stats and I'm not manipulating them, tbh it's the first time on this forum when I refer to such numbers and these numbers show the gulf between Lucas and players considered as good defensive midfielders. I get your point about his total tackles and finding out about it, I just try to point out it does not really matter and the full picture is not so shiny.

I've never said he's not a good player. I think he is a dreadful DM but a decent ballchaser/allrounder, the position he used to play in Brazil. In Liverpool he's a DM because we don't have anyone else to play that position and he's not very good at it. Pair him with good defensive midfielder or replace him with one and our midfield will be transformed straight away.

 

@ Funnneeeee

 

I think the two most standout candidates at present are Aaron Ramsey and Ross Barkley, though Fellaini could still turn his shit around as well. It fucking annoying that our Everton issue prevents us from competing to sign those two, or Baines, or even Rooney once upon a time. Other people think that Chalobah will be the next Lampard, I don't agree, nor do I agree about McEachran, with 72 career appearances at age 20 but still yet to score a goal, doesn't bode well.

 

I don't think Ramsey and Barkley are the players we need. Of course they'd improve us, they're both outstanding but they wouldn't transform our midfield into well organized defensive unit, which is the main issue. They'd add goals but no cover for defenders, no defense organization and no platform to press high and these things are crucial in possession-based football. Everton have Barry who's doing great in that role and Arsenal have Flamini and Arteta. Spurs have Sandro and Capoue, City got Fernandinho, mancs Carrick (who's a really underestimated player), Southampton bought Wanyama. We have no one. Our last player capable of playing in that position was Mascherano and since he fucked off to Barcelona our midfield is mediocrity in it's purest form. Just look at our midfielders throughout last 4-5 years, Jesus wept.

 

As for Rode & M'Vila, I know they're being looked at, I know people from our club have been in Germany many times recently and both are on the list of potential targets, so it's just not my football manager wet fantasy. I was glad hearing that, I hope it's true but I have no reason to not believe the people who claimed so because Germany is the best direction possible in our case, both player-wise and in searching of good models for developing our club.

[Pureblood]

Negged for SAS.

[Brigant Moloch]

haha, too late for me to edit it, my bad

 

edit: <sigh> not too late

[The Woolster]

to be fair, winning most tackles in the league means nothing. It's the percentage of won tackles which is important and Lucas is the player with one of the worst won tackles % in top 5 leagues of Europe. Check stats. He could do 100 tackles per game, win 50, he'll be top of the league with 50 tackles - great.. We need a player who wins at least 84-90% tackles in the game (based on stats of best DMs across Europe), Lucas' average is 72-74%. Two key stats for a defensive midfielder is a tackle success percentage and dribbled past. Lucas is very poor at both and there are no stats for missed interceptions, misread passes, times being out of position, loosing your man, no pressing in the right area in the right time, lack of tracking back. He's constantly not where he should be defence-wise. Winning a shitload of tackles doesn't make you a boss defensive midfielder and there's some serious lack of basic knowledge about this position among our fanbase and constant stream of headlines about "Lucas bossing games" from LFC.tv does not help and covers some serious issues mentioned above. You'll find no information about them on LFC.tv, trust me;) Only someone either blind or with some serious problems with understanding the basics of the game would claim there's nothing wrong with our midfield. There IS something wrong and the fact we're struggling against any team with decent midfield speaks for itself. AGAIN I'm blabbering about defensive midfielders but it's an apple in my eye and kind of fetish and such ignorance baffles me. Jesus fucking Christ lads, just watch some games and try to think about our defensive line as one unit where every move of every player matters, where there's constant communication, where being out position causes serious trouble, instead of focusing on individual performances and hollywood tackles.

In terms of Opta definitions (I'm assuming its their stat), every single tackle, in the strictest sense, is actually a tackle that has been won. What defines their 'tackle won %' is what happens to the ball after the tackle.  

 

For it to be a tackle, the person who has made the tackle must disposses the person who had the ball, which is what I mean by it being a tackle won. If after the player has been dispossesed the ball remains in the tacklers teams possession, it is a tackle won. If after the player has been dispossesed, it goes back to the player who was tackled team, it is a tackle lost. That means if you win a tackle but the ball goes out of play for a thow, it is classed as a tackle lost. A players tackle win % is also therefore often dependent on his team mates around him winning the loose ball.

[The Woolster]

Last season Lucas won a tackle (in the Opta sense) more often than any other player in the league who played more then 450 even attempted a tackle, bar Steve Sidwell.