Its hit the fan !! (Atk incident)

[zigackly]

No it's not. It wasn't a widely held opinion at all. Stop it.

 

Depends what you mean by widely I suppose. If you think our fan base was immune to casual racism at that time, you are very blinkered.

 

Barnes did a great deal to change that.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Depends what you mean by widely I suppose. If you think our fan base was immune to casual racism at that time, you are very blinkered.

 

I never said widely you did but widely tends to mean a lot, the majority etc. It wasn't.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't a racist element to our support, I've never said that. I'm saying you're absolutely wrong that it was a widely held opinion that fans didn't want jb because he was black.

 

It's wrong and damaging to say so.

[Ponz]

I think there's a difference between what is abhorrent and what is illegal abuse.

 

For the record, I do not condone anything Al has said in those quotes, but his opinion on John Barnes, for instance, was widely held at the time but we don't know if he now regrets that view. The BNP, like it or not, are a legal political party, and whilst he pulls no punches in his views on immigration, and to my mind crosses a line in the way he expresses them, he's hardly in a tiny minority, sadly, in this country.

 

I think we have to be careful to protect freedom of speech, whilst still vilifying racist views, but in my opinion labelling Al a racist here might be going a little far, especially whilst he is not a member of the site and therefore able to defend himself.

 

For the avoidance of confusion, I do not consider myself his friend and find some of his views personally repugnant, but I do believe in his right to them.

 

I worry, in this society, at times, that we are verging into the territory of thought crime.

 

Has anyone suggested he should be held criminally responsible for the statements? Freedom of speech is a defence only against legal persecution, not against (rightfully) facing personal and profressional consequences for repugnant statements.

[zigackly]

I never said widely you did but widely tends to mean a lot, the majority etc. It wasn't.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't a racist element to our support, I've never said that. I'm saying you're absolutely wrong that it was a widely held opinion that fans didn't want jb because he was black.

 

It's wrong and damaging to say so.

 

I certainly don't mean anything like the majority. Ease off on your trigger finger there.

 

Has anyone suggested he should be held criminally responsible for the statements? Freedom of speech is a defence only against legal persecution, not against (rightfully) facing personal and profressional consequences for repugnant statements.

 

Is it criminal for someone to say that they once held racist views? I'm sad to say I once held homophobic views, but I've since learned I was wrong.

[Kennys_spell]

I'm not saying I agree with anything Al' has posted there, I don't.

 

You're putting the boot into Alan Kayll, as have others on here. He don't post on here no more, hasn't for a long time.

 

@alantkayll

 

If you; or others who feel strongly about what you perceive his ideals are able to confront him, do so.

 

I bet not one of you have, you just want to mouth off.

 

I think you need to look at the thread again mate - I think you may have me mixed up with someone else.

 

I've simply said that he posted these things in the first place.

[Kennys_spell]

I understood he'd left again.

 

 

 

Unfortunately it's not only true, but a matter of record. A shameful period in the history of this country and our club. Perhaps "widely held" is an exaggeration though. I should say a significant minority.

 

Where is this record you talk about?

[Guest ShoePiss]

Where is this record you talk about?

 

Well I'm sure somewhere there is evidence of us having ignorant racist fans in the lead up to signing jb. It wasn't a wide spread thing though, they were a minority even then.

[zigackly]

Where is this record you talk about?

 

I'm not doing your homework for you, particularly over a semantical disagreement. I hope you are not in denial that there was a racist element of our fans in the eighties.

 

My main point in any case is that people sometimes change their views. I have no idea if he still thinks that way or not, but I would guess not.

[Kennys_spell]

Well I'm sure somewhere there is evidence of us having ignorant racist fans in the lead up to signing jb. It wasn't a wide spread thing though, they were a minority even then.

 

There's no doubt that we do have some racist idiots - however, he made a statement in response to your post

 

Originally Posted by ShoePiss View Post

Widely held opinion of fans that they didn't want John Barnes because he was black? Sorry I'm not having that.

 

by answering

Unfortunately it's not only true, but a matter of record.

 

I want to know where this record of fans not wanting Barnes because of his colour is?

[Kennys_spell]

I'm not doing your homework for you, particularly over a semantical disagreement. I hope you are not in denial that there was a racist element of our fans in the eighties.

 

My main point in any case is that people sometimes change their views. I have no idea of he still thinks that way or not, but I would guess not.

 

Semantics? You make a statement saying something is a fact and it has a recorded history and then try to call it semantics?

 

You don't appear to know what the word semantics means.

 

Bye.

[dennis tooth]

Fuck mr Kayall he was free to air his views and people are free to judge him for it, he is a scrote, Ive said it before, I'll say it again, I have no idea why he was put on a pedestal at all in terms of getting rid of H and G, his efforts had little to do with how they got fucked off at all and does not buy him a free pass.

And the same goes to any wanker lamenting over it or it apparently showing how divided our fanbase is, bollocks.

[zigackly]

Semantics in that by widely held, I meant a significant minority, as I have since clarified. Try not to get too hung up on the detail here.

 

I thought you were a lot more relaxed as a poster this time around, but perhaps I was wrong.

[Kennys_spell]

Semantics in that by widely held, I meant a significant minority, as I have since clarified. Try not to get too hung up on the detail here.

 

Then why accuse me of semantics about that (Widely) as I haven't challenged you on it's use?

 

I simply asked where the record of "Fans that didn't want John Barnes because he was black" was.

 

I'll challenge you on that.

 

I really am a lot more relaxed and don't get into arguments with folk - unless they wrongly accuse me of things then try to bluff their way through.

[zigackly]

Then why accuse me of semantics about that (Widely) as I haven't challenged you on it's use?

 

I simply asked where the record of "Fans that didn't want John Barnes because he was black" was.

 

I'll challenge you on that.

 

I really can't be arsed to help you with your bad case of denial.

 

"Bye."

[Dicko]

There's no doubt that we do have some racist idiots - however, he made a statement in response to your post

 

 

 

by answering

 

 

I want to know where this record of fans not wanting Barnes because of his colour is?

 

As someone who was on the Kop prior to Barnes arriving even as a child I can assure you there were plenty that gave Barnes abuse racially.

 

If you believe it was only confined to Everton supporters within the city prior to 1987 you are very much mistaken.

 

Indeed in 1987 there was graffiti around Liverpool with the Liverbird & the Hammers of Pink Floyd expressing white power.

[setreal]

 

You don't appear to know what the word semantics means.

 

 

Sentences like this may cause the universe to implode. Beware.

[Captain]

Then why accuse me of semantics about that (Widely) as I haven't challenged you on it's use?

 

I simply asked where the record of "Fans that didn't want John Barnes because he was black" was.

 

There is no record, which is why he won't tell you.

[Guest ShoePiss]

As someone who was on the Kop prior to Barnes arriving even as a child I can assure you there were plenty that gave Barnes abuse racially.

 

If you believe it was only confined to Everton supporters within the city prior to 1987 you are very much mistaken.

 

Indeed in 1987 there was graffiti around Liverpool with the Liverbird & the Hammers of Pink Floyd expressing white power.

 

No one is saying it didn't exist back then, that would be incredibly ill informed. I am someone that was on the kop prior to him coming as it happens.

[Kennys_spell]

As someone who was on the Kop prior to Barnes arriving even as a child I can assure you there were plenty that gave Barnes abuse racially.

 

If you believe it was only confined to Everton supporters within the city prior to 1987 you are very much mistaken.

 

Indeed in 1987 there was graffiti around Liverpool with the Liverbird & the Hammers of Pink Floyd expressing white power.

 

Whoa hang on fella - I've already said we deffo had racists and as someone who used to stand on the kop when Roger Hunt, Ian St John and Alf Arrowsmith played I'm not in denial about anything.

 

What I am questioning is the statement that there was a widely help view that Barnes shoiuld not be a Liverpool player due to his colour - that is just wrong.

[zigackly]

As someone who was on the Kop prior to Barnes arriving even as a child I can assure you there were plenty that gave Barnes abuse racially.

 

If you believe it was only confined to Everton supporters within the city prior to 1987 you are very much mistaken.

 

Indeed in 1987 there was graffiti around Liverpool with the Liverbird & the Hammers of Pink Floyd expressing white power.

 

Quite.

[zigackly]

Whoa hang on fella - I've already said we deffo had racists and as someone who used to stand on the kop when Roger Hunt, Ian St John and Alf Arrowsmith played I'm not in denial about anything.

 

What I am questioning is the statement that there was a widely help view that Barnes shoiuld not be a Liverpool player due to his colour - that is just wrong.

 

You seem to be changing your mind rather regularly as to what you are questioning, which leads me to conclude you're simply resorting to attacking the inadequately expressed detail of my statement rather than having a discussion about the actual point of what I was trying to say. I'm prepared to have one kind of discussion here, but not the other. Life's just too short mate. I've attempted to clarify my meaning; if that's not good enough for you, then I'd rather we just moved on.

[mattyq]

I was on the Kop prior, during and after Digger arived.

The way i remember it is there were a lot of racist sentiment opposed to him coming.

That lasted roughly 1 game when ever the terminally retarded knuckle draggers could see we had something special on our hands

[Dicko]

Whoa hang on fella - I've already said we deffo had racists and as someone who used to stand on the kop when Roger Hunt, Ian St John and Alf Arrowsmith played I'm not in denial about anything.

 

What I am questioning is the statement that there was a widely help view that Barnes shoiuld not be a Liverpool player due to his colour - that is just wrong.

 

There were definitely supporters who felt that way whether they were a majority I don't know. I know more people seemed to be pissed off with him because of his apparent flirtation with Arsenal and holding out to see if they came in for him.

 

More than once though I heard "well fuck the black cunt off then."

[zigackly]

It was far from being confined to our club by the way; that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all.

 

I'm sure at least some of the people who held those views at the time have been educated since into changing them. I have absolutely no idea if that's the case with atk, but it's possible this cyber lynching is premature in the absence of that knowledge.

[Guest ShoePiss]

I suppose it depends who you mixed with, no one I knew was opposed to him coming because he was black and I never heard anyone say it. Ever.

 

Before, during and after he arrived at games on the kop