New rafa deal agreed

[JMARKH]

He is paid less than Moyes, Ramos or Redknapp.

He is getting paid in a crappy currency compared to his home as well

He has been responsible for huge over budget increases in our revenue thanks to his CL success.

 

Everyone on this board would demand a pay rise in those circumstances

 

And at least criticise him correctly.

He made a mistake in buying Keane.

If he was stubborn he would continue to play him in the face of all evidence that he is not good enough (that what was GH, who was stubborn, did with Dioff & cost us even more)

 

Admitting your mistakes & trying to correct them is flexible not stubborn.

 

(& Yes he made a huge error in signing Keane but ffs, get the criticism right)

 

ye cause persisting with kuyt on his own upfront when he was wank against blackburn and awful on saturday works, how many times has he stuck by kuyt because of this fuckin workrate he is so obsessed with, with kuyt in that role I don't class us as having any strikers up front, he makes far too many mistakes does benitez. But Kuyt hasn't upset him so he'll let him play.

[hamstrung]

Repeating the same point over and over again is very dull.

[Royal Family]

I've read this thread over the past day or so with a growing sense of incredulity. Now, I'm far from a blind supporter of rafa, and I've said before the contract talks should wait until the summer given we're talking about such a long-term and costly commitment. But when I come on here and read posts talking about him as the 'fat Spanish c+nt' (and this from SEASON-TICKET holders!) and calling for a management team of Paul Jewell (36 league games without success!) and Jamie Carragher (no doubt with Jay Spearing as captain), I simply despair. We can't even blame the Sky generation for this - this is being orchestrated by members of SoS (which of course has opened itself up to the accusation of jumping into bed with Parry and Gillett, just as RTK did before them).

 

I think a lot of Reds fans need to have a long hard look at themselves - even if Rafa leaves in the summer, I will have nothing but gratitude towards him for his work at this club - for Istanbul; for CArdiff 2006; for the run to Athens; for winning in the San Siro and the Nou Camp. For giving us back our pride. I want nothing more than Rafa to win us number 19 - and if he doesn't, I'll thank him for his efforts and hope the next man can do better. I actually think we have many fans who would prefer us NOT to succeed, as long as they acn still look back nostalgically at the days of the 70s and 80s and have those memories of greatness untarnished, and moan about how the current generation will never compare. But I don't think they would want or be able to handle success. Reading this thread makes me embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan, I'm afraid.

 

ps - As for Robbie Keane. Firstly (as with Xabi) no one player is bigger than the club. And secondly, Robbie's agent, Tony Stephens, approached Harry Redknapp the day before the game at White Hart Lane, asking him if he'd like Robbie back. Harry Redknapp then told selected members of the press this story after the match and, of course, clarified that he would love the chance to manage Keane. As atk would say, THIS IS A FACT. But this has been engineered and initiated by Tony Stephens, presumably on Keane''s behalf. And if I were Rafa, I would make Keane train with the reserves.

[JMARKH]

Thats right ask Shanks in the 60s, Fergie in the 80's they went for years wining nothing and were kept on........

 

Or we could have kept Houllier on and on then going by what you say, in fact maybe we have.

[JMARKH]

I've read this thread over the past day or so with a growing sense of incredulity. Now, I'm far from a blind supporter of rafa, and I've said before the contract talks should wait until the summer given we're talking about such a long-term and costly commitment. But when I come on here and read posts talking about him as the 'fat Spanish c+nt' (and this from SEASON-TICKET holders!) and calling for a management team of Paul Jewell (36 league games without success!) and Jamie Carragher (no doubt with Jay Spearing as captain), I simply despair. We can't even blame the Sky generation for this - this is being orchestrated by members of SoS (which of course has opened itself up to the accusation of jumping into bed with Parry and Gillett, just as RTK did before them).

 

I think a lot of Reds fans need to have a long hard look at themselves - even if Rafa leaves in the summer, I will have nothing but gratitude towards him for his work at this club - for Istanbul; for CArdiff 2006; for the run to Athens; for winning in the San Siro and the Nou Camp. For giving us back our pride. I want nothing more than Rafa to win us number 19 - and if he doesn't, I'll thank him for his efforts and hope the next man can do better. I actually think we have many fans who would prefer us NOT to succeed, as long as they acn still look back nostalgically at the days of the 70s and 80s and have those memories of greatness untarnished, and moan about how the current generation will never compare. But I don't think they would want or be able to handle success. Reading this thread makes me embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan, I'm afraid.

 

ps - As for Robbie Keane. Firstly (as with Xabi) no one player is bigger than the club. And secondly, Robbie's agent, Tony Stephens, approached Harry Redknapp the day before the game at White Hart Lane, asking him if he'd like Robbie back. Harry Redknapp then told selected members of the press this story after the match and, of course, clarified that he would love the chance to manage Keane. As atk would say, THIS IS A FACT. But this has been engineered and initiated by Tony Stephens, presumably on Keane''s behalf. And if I were Rafa, I would make Keane train with the reserves.

 

I'd want to move to if I kept getting hauled of after an hour because I wasn't one of the managers favorites.

[Antynwa]

this is being orchestrated by members of SoS (which of course has opened itself up to the accusation of jumping into bed with Parry and Gillett, just as RTK did before them).

 

 

 

Madhead

[Carradona]

He is paid less than Moyes, Ramos or Redknapp.

He is getting paid in a crappy currency compared to his home as well

He has been responsible for huge over budget increases in our revenue thanks to his CL success.

 

Everyone on this board would demand a pay rise in those circumstances

 

And at least criticise him correctly.

He made a mistake in buying Keane.

If he was stubborn he would continue to play him in the face of all evidence that he is not good enough (that what was GH, who was stubborn, did with Dioff & cost us even more)

 

Admitting your mistakes & trying to correct them is flexible not stubborn.

 

(& Yes he made a huge error in signing Keane but ffs, get the criticism right)

The three managers you have mentioned are/were all overpaid. Especialy Moyes.

 

As for the Keane debate, I think Rafa is being stubborn because of the petulant behaviour Keane has shown when he is taken off. He has been an unused sub in the last 2 league games and has had El Zhar put on before him in both of those games. And Lucas.

Building a team to win the league is fin hard, its not a walk in the park, thats why wining the league is the holy grail, thats why its what we crave so much. If it were easy, what would be the point ? There seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the task in hand, it's not join the dots, its winning the most difficult league in europe. The amount of points being taken of the big 4 suggests that this season the smaller clubs have managed to close the gap on the bigger teams. The top four can only improve so much, their ability to improve plateaus, whilst the smaller clubs are gaining in leaps and bounds.

 

But to your point, why is that though young Cain ? Why dont managers get more time these days ? is it because its been proven that teams play better and gets better results when a manager is frequently changed or is it due to the sensationalist headlines and Sky generation wanting it all now, with no understanding of the big picture or perspective on everything around ?

 

Shanks and Fergie are two of the greatest managers ever, both enjoyed the backing of their boards when things were going badly and neither would have survived to achieve what they did in todays climate. Therefore one must assume that the modern trend for not giving managers time is infact NOT the way to go about building a competitive team. Look at Spurs, Jol got them 5th twice, but they decided he couldn't get them in the top 4 so they booted him out, what an inspired decision that's turned out to be. Chelsea failed to back Mournihio, after giving them their first two titles in 50 years, inspite of all the money spent, it was proven that in fact Jose did know what he was doing. Look at Charlton, Curbishley had them where they were as he knew the club and the players and they punched well above their weight for years, until, fans decided they wanted more and got restless, bye bye Curbs, bye bye Premiership for Charlton.

 

Of course some managers are failures, but recent premiership history is littered with teams whose fans got restless, whose managers went as a result and whose clubs went backwards after that managerial change indeed i cant think of many who werent unmitigated failures whose teams did better after a change. Blackburn did well under Hughes, Citeh well under Erikson, neither are doing well now. Everton got Moyes, who is clearly talented and have stuck by him, he has returned some respectability to them.

All valid points and a good post. But I think my point is being sidetracked here. I just don't think he deserves a new contract until we see how we finish in the league in May.

maybe you would young Cain, but I think many, if we won the league, wouldn't and would find a way to belittle the achievement and continue to call for Rafas head.

Is there a reason you have twice called me "young Cain"?

Is there anybody anywhere who wouldnt if they had the chance, try and get a wage rise ?

 

Cain you make some great points, but using that to beat Rafa with is plain silly mate.

 

I'm not trying to beat Rafa with anything. I don't have very much against him. I'm going to sound like a broken record now, but I'll say it just one last time.

 

The only point I'm trying to make is that I don't think he should be given a contract until May.

[Carradona]

Repeating the same point over and over again is very dull.

 

I agree, and I apologise for it. I just don't want to be sidetracked into people thinking I want Rafa out ASAP.

[SpeedyG]

I'd want to move to if I kept getting hauled of after an hour because I wasn't one of the managers favorites.

 

Maybe it's not because he's not liked, maybe just maybe, it's because he doesn't score enough goals. Imagine that a football manager making decisions based o football.

[05 Milan]

The three managers you have mentioned are/were all overpaid. Especialy Moyes.

 

They're paid the market rate, and by this reasoning Rafa is underpaid, so that just strenghtens the managers case.

[dave u]

ps - As for Robbie Keane. Firstly (as with Xabi) no one player is bigger than the club. And secondly, Robbie's agent, Tony Stephens, approached Harry Redknapp the day before the game at White Hart Lane, asking him if he'd like Robbie back. Harry Redknapp then told selected members of the press this story after the match and, of course, clarified that he would love the chance to manage Keane. As atk would say, THIS IS A FACT. But this has been engineered and initiated by Tony Stephens, presumably on Keane''s behalf. And if I were Rafa, I would make Keane train with the reserves.

 

So all the Keane/Spurs stuff is Robbie Keane's fault, and has nothing to do with Rafa and his treatment of him? Behave yourself. If Keane's agent has done that, maybe you should be asking why he felt the need to do it rather than make out Rafa is a poor innocent victim in all this. Keane feels that he's not been wanted from the first moment he walked through the door. His crime? Not being Gareth Barry.

 

Spurs have been asking Keane for months if he'd be up for coming back. He kept telling them 'no', but is now starting to waiver because he knows Rafa wants him out. He said all the right things last week after PSV, and what happened to him? A message was sent out to him loud and clear on saturday, that's what happened.

 

When we agreed a fee with Spurs, Rafa asked Parry to put the deal on hold for two weeks, sign Barry, and then raise funds to go back in for Keane. Parry said no, because we'd just sold Crouch, Alonso was still here, and he felt it was too risky as we could end up with no striker because Spurs and Keane would no doubt be pissed off if we tried to mess them about.

 

So Parry told Rafa the Keane deal would go through first, and to worry about Barry later. Rafa had a strop, which got worse when he didn't get Barry, and Keane has been feeling like a leper ever since he got here. So if his agent has sounded out Spurs about whether they'd take him back, it's because that's his job, to look after his client and make sure there's a fall back option if things got worse with Rafa.

[JohnnyH]

Wasn't Keane always getting subbed at Spurs too?

[JMARKH]

Maybe it's not because he's not liked, maybe just maybe, it's because he doesn't score enough goals. Imagine that a football manager making decisions based o football.

 

how come he stuck with dirk last year then, when he was utter gash as well as not scoring in the league?

[hamstrung]

I agree, and I apologise for it. I just don't want to be sidetracked into people thinking I want Rafa out ASAP.

 

Wasn't referring to you. If you are, I am oblivious to it.

[Antynwa]

So all the Keane/Spurs stuff is Robbie Keane's fault, and has nothing to do with Rafa and his treatment of him? Behave yourself. If Keane's agent has done that, maybe you should be asking why he felt the need to do it rather than make out Rafa is a poor innocent victim in all this. Keane feels that he's not been wanted from the first moment he walked through the door. His crime? Not being Gareth Barry.

 

Spurs have been asking Keane for months if he'd be up for coming back. He kept telling them 'no', but is now starting to waiver because he knows Rafa wants him out. He said all the right things last week after PSV, and what happened to him? A message was sent out to him loud and clear on saturday, that's what happened.

 

When we agreed a fee with Spurs, Rafa asked Parry to put the deal on hold for two weeks, sign Barry, and then raise funds to go back in for Keane. Parry said no, because we'd just sold Crouch, Alonso was still here, and he felt it was too risky as we could end up with no striker because Spurs and Keane would no doubt be pissed off if we tried to mess them about.

 

So Parry told Rafa the Keane deal would go through first, and to worry about Barry later. Rafa had a strop, which got worse when he didn't get Barry, and Keane has been feeling like a leper ever since he got here. So if his agent has sounded out Spurs about whether they'd take him back, it's because that's his job, to look after his client and make sure there's a fall back option if things got worse with Rafa.

 

Interesting...

 

Personally I think Rafa got it wrong this summer if that is the case. As much as I believe in many ways Keane's attitude has left alot to be desired, it's a two sided coin, one of the most talented players of the past few years can't go from being that, to what he is now on his own.

 

Benitez must hold some of the blame, for the shadow of Robbie Keane we have on our bench now.

[SpeedyG]

Rafa treats all players like they are lepersm if Keane hasn't got the mental fortitude to deal with "being spoke to like a YTS trainee" then he should man-up and take a course in mental toughness.

 

In reality, I doubt this scenario and Keane is not being played because he's playing crap, when he get's the hang of our way of playing, he'll play and get goals. In the interim, this is all just conspiracy theories and hysteria to keep us interested until such time as we clap each other on the back and tell everyone, we knew he would come good. Sure, if it takes much longer I'm sure they'll be stories about Robbie taking drugs and Rafa using the academy as a front for a child prostitution ring etc etc. But hey that appears to be the nature of our club and our "consumers".

[JohnnyH]

So all the Keane/Spurs stuff is Robbie Keane's fault, and has nothing to do with Rafa and his treatment of him? Behave yourself. If Keane's agent has done that, maybe you should be asking why he felt the need to do it rather than make out Rafa is a poor innocent victim in all this. Keane feels that he's not been wanted from the first moment he walked through the door. His crime? Not being Gareth Barry.

 

Spurs have been asking Keane for months if he'd be up for coming back. He kept telling them 'no', but is now starting to waiver because he knows Rafa wants him out. He said all the right things last week after PSV, and what happened to him? A message was sent out to him loud and clear on saturday, that's what happened.

 

When we agreed a fee with Spurs, Rafa asked Parry to put the deal on hold for two weeks, sign Barry, and then raise funds to go back in for Keane. Parry said no, because we'd just sold Crouch, Alonso was still here, and he felt it was too risky as we could end up with no striker because Spurs and Keane would no doubt be pissed off if we tried to mess them about.

 

So Parry told Rafa the Keane deal would go through first, and to worry about Barry later. Rafa had a strop, which got worse when he didn't get Barry, and Keane has been feeling like a leper ever since he got here. So if his agent has sounded out Spurs about whether they'd take him back, it's because that's his job, to look after his client and make sure there's a fall back option if things got worse with Rafa.

 

God I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but Parry was right! If we had got Barry then he would not have performed any better then Alonso as Xabi has been our best player this season. Getting Barry may have resutled in not getting Keane and then we'd have been down to just Kuyt due to Torres's injuries and we would have had what happened against Hull, due to no decent back up. Of course it should be Rafa and Rafa only who decides who comes in and out, but I think Parry was right in what he said.

[theghost]

Do you think he's going to go in January, Dave?

[dave u]

Maybe it's not because he's not liked, maybe just maybe, it's because he doesn't score enough goals. Imagine that a football manager making decisions based o football.

 

I also love the way people are justifying Rafa's treatment of Keane by saying Keane is shite, not good enough, doesn't score enough goals, misses sitters etc

 

Rafa paid £20m for this shite player people are slaughtering. Yet people are heaping the blame on a player who has not really been given a proper chance to shine in his ideal position, and has suffered from Torres being injured and out of form for a lot of the season.

 

If Keane is as bad as some people are saying, then surely it's a fucking outrage that the manager spent £20m of the clubs money on him? How about the £7m he spent on Dossena? Instead of slagging the player off (who is actually trying his best, it's just that his best isn't very good), why not point the finger at the man who brought him here, and the man who is picking him?

 

Some people are going over the top in the stuff they are saying about Rafa, but some of the people defending him are just as embarrassing.

[SpeedyG]

how come he stuck with dirk last year then, when he was utter gash as well as not scoring in the league?

 

Standard mis-direction. Could he have chosen Kuyt over Keane for football reasons? Indeed, given their recent goals record, isn't it likely?

[Royal Family]

So all the Keane/Spurs stuff is Robbie Keane's fault, and has nothing to do with Rafa and his treatment of him? Behave yourself. If Keane's agent has done that, maybe you should be asking why he felt the need to do it rather than make out Rafa is a poor innocent victim in all this. Keane feels that he's not been wanted from the first moment he walked through the door. His crime? Not being Gareth Barry.

 

Spurs have been asking Keane for months if he'd be up for coming back. He kept telling them 'no', but is now starting to waiver because he knows Rafa wants him out. He said all the right things last week after PSV, and what happened to him? A message was sent out to him loud and clear on saturday, that's what happened.

 

When we agreed a fee with Spurs, Rafa asked Parry to put the deal on hold for two weeks, sign Barry, and then raise funds to go back in for Keane. Parry said no, because we'd just sold Crouch, Alonso was still here, and he felt it was too risky as we could end up with no striker because Spurs and Keane would no doubt be pissed off if we tried to mess them about.

 

So Parry told Rafa the Keane deal would go through first, and to worry about Barry later. Rafa had a strop, which got worse when he didn't get Barry, and Keane has been feeling like a leper ever since he got here. So if his agent has sounded out Spurs about whether they'd take him back, it's because that's his job, to look after his client and make sure there's a fall back option if things got worse with Rafa.

 

Sorry Dave, but we're going to disagree on this. What are you saying - that Rafa didn't want Keane and he was purely a Parry signing? If so, rafa should have walked as no manager should tolerate that. But it seems to me that you're not saying that Rafa didn't want Keane, but rather that he wanted Barry first, and felt undermined by Chief Scout Rick Parry's priorities and decisions.

 

Fact is, Rafa put Robbie Keane straight into the team and showed every confidence in him. Keane repaid him by missing sitter after sitter from pre-season onwards: he simply doesn't deserve or merit a place in the team. And think about Keane's performance at Spurs when he actually was refusing to shoot at goal - if you were the manager, might that not make you question his commitment and professionalism? The more I think about that day, the more I'm convinced that Keane (whether consciously or not) didn't want to do anything to harm Spurs. And if Rafa now knows that Tony Stephens approached redknapp (which he did) before that match, why on earth SHOULD he pick a player who doesn't want to be here, despite his public protestations.

 

Remember too that Stephens and our manager have a history, dating back to the Michael Owen situation as soon as Rafa arrived (because Stephens lied point-blank to Rafa's face within a week of his arrival in the country). I'm not at all surprised that Stephens is trying to undermine him now.

[dave u]

Do you think he's going to go in January, Dave?

 

I hope not, but there's a better than fifty fifty chance of it happening. From what I've heard, Rafa wants to get rid but Parry and the yanks are reluctant to do it so soon, and especially seeing as Rafa has already ruled out the obvious replacement.

 

If Rafa went to them and said he wanted to offload Keane for Owen, and use the money to strengthen other areas, I suspect they'd go for that. But he's adamant he won't have Owen, so I can see a potential bust up on the horizon over this, especially if he's got the fall back of a lucrative five year contract behind him.

 

Time will tell, a lot can happen between now and January, Keane might hit a hat-trick next week and go on a run that makes it impossible for Rafa to leave him out.

 

As things stand though, there's more chance of him going than staying based on what I've been told.

[SpeedyG]

I also love the way people are justifying Rafa's treatment of Keane by saying Keane is shite, not good enough, doesn't score enough goals, misses sitters etc

 

Rafa paid £20m for this shite player people are slaughtering. Yet people are heaping the blame on a player who has not really been given a proper chance to shine in his ideal position, and has suffered from Torres being injured and out of form for a lot of the season.

 

If Keane is as bad as some people are saying, then surely it's a fucking outrage that the manager spent £20m of the clubs money on him? How about the £7m he spent on Dossena? Instead of slagging the player off (who is actually trying his best, it's just that his best isn't very good), why not point the finger at the man who brought him here, and the man who is picking him?

 

Some people are going over the top in the stuff they are saying about Rafa, but some of the people defending him are just as embarrassing.

 

The people saying Keane is shite are no better than atk, and to be fair they haven't really registered on my Radar. The anti-Rafa crew though seem to believe that Rafa is responsible for EVERYTHING, whereas we all know, in the real world it's a little more complicated than that.

[billybonzo]

I've read this thread over the past day or so with a growing sense of incredulity. Now, I'm far from a blind supporter of rafa, and I've said before the contract talks should wait until the summer given we're talking about such a long-term and costly commitment. But when I come on here and read posts talking about him as the 'fat Spanish c+nt' (and this from SEASON-TICKET holders!) and calling for a management team of Paul Jewell (36 league games without success!) and Jamie Carragher (no doubt with Jay Spearing as captain), I simply despair. We can't even blame the Sky generation for this - this is being orchestrated by members of SoS (which of course has opened itself up to the accusation of jumping into bed with Parry and Gillett, just as RTK did before them).

 

I think a lot of Reds fans need to have a long hard look at themselves - even if Rafa leaves in the summer, I will have nothing but gratitude towards him for his work at this club - for Istanbul; for CArdiff 2006; for the run to Athens; for winning in the San Siro and the Nou Camp. For giving us back our pride. I want nothing more than Rafa to win us number 19 - and if he doesn't, I'll thank him for his efforts and hope the next man can do better. I actually think we have many fans who would prefer us NOT to succeed, as long as they acn still look back nostalgically at the days of the 70s and 80s and have those memories of greatness untarnished, and moan about how the current generation will never compare. But I don't think they would want or be able to handle success. Reading this thread makes me embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan, I'm afraid.

ps - As for Robbie Keane. Firstly (as with Xabi) no one player is bigger than the club. And secondly, Robbie's agent, Tony Stephens, approached Harry Redknapp the day before the game at White Hart Lane, asking him if he'd like Robbie back. Harry Redknapp then told selected members of the press this story after the match and, of course, clarified that he would love the chance to manage Keane. As atk would say, THIS IS A FACT. But this has been engineered and initiated by Tony Stephens, presumably on Keane''s behalf. And if I were Rafa, I would make Keane train with the reserves.

 

Is this why our "striker" wouldn't have a "strike" at goal then ?

[JMARKH]

Sorry Dave, but we're going to disagree on this. What are you saying - that Rafa didn't want Keane and he was purely a Parry signing? If so, rafa should have walked as no manager should tolerate that. But it seems to me that you're not saying that Rafa didn't want Keane, but rather that he wanted Barry first, and felt undermined by Chief Scout Rick Parry's priorities and decisions.

 

Fact is, Rafa put Robbie Keane straight into the team and showed every confidence in him. Keane repaid him by missing sitter after sitter from pre-season onwards: he simply doesn't deserve or merit a place in the team. And think about Keane's performance at Spurs when he actually was refusing to shoot at goal - if you were the manager, might that not make you question his commitment and professionalism? The more I think about that day, the more I'm convinced that Keane (whether consciously or not) didn't want to do anything to harm Spurs. And if Rafa now knows that Tony Stephens approached redknapp (which he did) before that match, why on earth SHOULD he pick a player who doesn't want to be here, despite his public protestations.

 

Remember too that Stephens and our manager have a history, dating back to the Michael Owen situation as soon as Rafa arrived (because Stephens lied point-blank to Rafa's face within a week of his arrival in the country). I'm not at all surprised that Stephens is trying to undermine him now.

 

maybe because he had such a brilliant game on wednesday and we needed to beat hull and have a lack of strikers on the pitch and kuyt has the control of an elephant and has no pace to play up front on his own, maybe he could have picked him for them reasons, for the good of the team I would have thought.