Summer 2023 Transfer Thread

[3 Stacks]

18 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think gakpo has shown his is capable of that. I think Diaz could do it in a different way, but he'd still be between the lines. Both would take it and run with the ball like Bobby did earlier in his time here, before that injury prior to Madrid 19, but both have excellent touch in tight spaces and great awareness of where people are around them. 

I like how Gakpo has looked, but I think he's more of an all around forward. Someone who has the physical profile, being tall, athletic and fast when he gets going, with good technique and tactical knowledge, but it will likely be too much to ask him to really excel at the linking aspect of a false 9 role. Firmino had a real knack for creating space for others. The perfect player to play in between two scoring wingers. 

 

Say what most people think we're missing is the Wijnaldum profile, a midfielder who guards against counters and never loses the ball, that is intrinsically a role that is safe. If you have that kind of player, you need to make up for it creatively somewhere else. 

[Barrington Womble]

26 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I like how Gakpo has looked, but I think he's more of an all around forward. Someone who has the physical profile, being tall, athletic and fast when he gets going, with good technique and tactical knowledge, but it will likely be too much to ask him to really excel at the linking aspect of a false 9 role. Firmino had a real knack for creating space for others. The perfect player to play in between two scoring wingers. 

 

Say what most people think we're missing is the Wijnaldum profile, a midfielder who guards against counters and never loses the ball, that is intrinsically a role that is safe. If you have that kind of player, you need to make up for it creatively somewhere else. 

 

There's never going to be 2 players perfectly matched. Their won't be another firmino, there won't be another Gini. So we'll find players who can fill similar sorts of role and work from there. It's why klopp likes lots of different types of player imo, rather then the traditional 2 similar players fighting for the same single role, he just has a mix of players and if one is missing or rotated, it allows us to set up a little differently match to match. The differences often aren't massive, they're subtle, but it's been a part of the success really. And nowhere has klopp managed that rotation better than midfield till this season. 

[3 Stacks]

14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

There's never going to be 2 players perfectly matched. Their won't be another firmino, there won't be another Gini. So we'll find players who can fill similar sorts of role and work from there. It's why klopp likes lots of different types of player imo, rather then the traditional 2 similar players fighting for the same single role, he just has a mix of players and if one is missing or rotated, it allows us to set up a little differently match to match. The differences often aren't massive, they're subtle, but it's been a part of the success really. And nowhere has klopp managed that rotation better than midfield till this season. 

I'm not saying we'll find another Gini or Firmino. But if people want that similar Gini profile in midfield again, you have to make up for the lack of creativity from that position elsewhere. That's what I'm saying. Gini barely played the ball forward. If you're going to have forwards who majoritarily want the ball in space, like the ones we're collecting, you need someone in the middle of the pitch to have the quality to give them those passes and that makes movements that compliment theirs (like someone who plays between the lines, pulling defenders towards him)

[Anubis]

Southampton keeper hands Ihanacho a gilt-edged chance to equalise.

 

He doesn’t.

[stringvest]

13 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I'm not saying we'll find another Gini or Firmino. But if people want that similar Gini profile in midfield again, you have to make up for the lack of creativity from that position elsewhere. That's what I'm saying. Gini barely played the ball forward. If you're going to have forwards who majoritarily want the ball in space, like the ones we're collecting, you need someone in the middle of the pitch to have the quality to give them those passes and that makes movements that compliment theirs (like someone who plays between the lines, pulling defenders towards him)

 

That's why we have Thiago, or not, at the moment.

[TheHowieLama]

Gini barely played the ball forward

 

 

Nah - during their time as partners in midfield Gini was involved in more golas than Henderson and was quite quick to move the ball to the front three after winning 2nd balls/tackles.

 

Maybe unfair to Hendo as he was a 6 half that time - add Milner into the discussion and Gini looks even more progressive in that midfield..

 

[an tha]

The problem with a midfield with Thiago in it and therefore a team set up for Thiago playing is what happens in the 40-50% of the time when Thiago is unavailable?

 

If we are going down that road then great - but we either need a more reliable Thiago type player or a ready made like for like replacement for when he is inevitably injured.

 

Personally i am of the view we would be better him leaving and we get in a younger reliable "ball playing" midfielder as a part of our rebuild to service our remodelled attack.

[stringvest]

3 minutes ago, an tha said:

The problem with a midfield with Thiago in it and therefore a team set up for Thiago playing is what happens in the 40-50% of the time when Thiago is unavailable?

 

If we are going down that road then great - but we either need a more reliable Thiago type player or a ready made like for like replacement for when he is inevitably injured.

 

Personally i am of the view we would be better him leaving and we get in a younger reliable "ball playing" midfielder as a part of our rebuild to service our remodelled attack.

 

I would agree with you if there was anyone anywhere near as good as him out there. 

[TheHowieLama]

10 minutes ago, an tha said:

we would be better him leaving and we get in a younger reliable "ball playing" midfielder as a part of our rebuild to service our remodelled attack.

I understand it is frustrating to have our PFA Team of the Year midfielder from last season unavailable at times but - there is no one close.

 

[3 Stacks]

26 minutes ago, stringvest said:

 

That's why we have Thiago, or not, at the moment.

Agreed. I'm just arguing for the scenario of what seems like the majority, that wants the kind of midfield we had from about 2018 to 2020. 

 

25 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Gini barely played the ball forward

 

 

Nah - during their time as partners in midfield Gini was involved in more golas than Henderson and was quite quick to move the ball to the front three after winning 2nd balls/tackles.

 

Maybe unfair to Hendo as he was a 6 half that time - add Milner into the discussion and Gini looks even more progressive in that midfield..

 

 

This is Gini. In percentiles. 

17/18: 

 

18/19: 

 

19/20: 

 

20/21: 

 

His job was simply not to pass it forward. 

 

Henderson is around the 90th percentile, sometimes higher, every single season. 

[an tha]

10 minutes ago, stringvest said:

 

I would agree with you if there was anyone anywhere near as good as him out there. 

Thing is his injury problems are likely to only get worse as he gets older - 32 before this season ends....He is some player but for me he is approaching being a luxury we can't really afford to have.

[an tha]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I understand it is frustrating to have our PFA Team of the Year midfielder from last season unavailable at times but - there is no one close.

 

It's a fair bit more than at times though isn't it - sadly.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Agreed. I'm just arguing for the scenario of what seems like the majority, that wants the kind of midfield we had from about 2018 to 2020. 

 

 

This is Gini. In percentiles. 

17/18: 

 

18/19: 

 

19/20: 

 

20/21: 

 

His job was simply not to pass it forward. 

 

Henderson is around the 90th percentile, sometimes higher, every single season. 

 

 

No idea what that is - you are the statto so will need to break this down and add Hendo in. It will help all of us.

 

 

[3 Stacks]

7 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

 

No idea what that is - you are the statto so will need to break this down and add Hendo in. It will help all of us.

 

 

It's a rank of midfielders, in percentiles, for progressive passes. So for example, in 17/18, in the Premier League, Gini was a 39th percentile progressive passer among midfielders. Taking the aggregate, he wasn't a progressive passer comparative to the majority of other midfielders. Probably because that's not what he was asked to do.

 

Henderson, conversely, is. It's on fbref. It's simple to look up. You don't have to be a "statto".

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

Henderson, conversely, is. It's on fbref. It's simple to look up. You don't have to be a "statto".

To be clear - there is a stat that suggests during those seasons Henderson ranked amongst the top 5-10% for forward passes in the league?

[Scott_M]

36 minutes ago, an tha said:

The problem with a midfield with Thiago in it and therefore a team set up for Thiago playing is what happens in the 40-50% of the time when Thiago is unavailable?

 

If we are going down that road then great - but we either need a more reliable Thiago type player or a ready made like for like replacement for when he is inevitably injured.

 

Personally i am of the view we would be better him leaving and we get in a younger reliable "ball playing" midfielder as a part of our rebuild to service our remodelled attack.

I was talking to my mate yesterday about Thiago and we were both of the opinion we wouldn’t be surprised if he left this summer.

 

Not because we want him to, I think the fact his contract expires in ‘24 means this is our last chance to get a fee, he turns 32 next month, he’s fitness record is obviously poor and he allegedly earns >£200k per week (>£10m per season), in all it wouldn’t be unsurprising if we let him go.
 

A flip to this is given the above, what fee would we get? I think we’d be lucky to get £10m, likely less. Is it worth keeping him, using him more sporadically and to be a leader / mentor to the youngsters / new players? Given we’re likely bringing in at least 2 midfielders, they’ll be on a steep learning curve and likely need a lot of support.

[3 Stacks]

5 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

To be clear - there is a stat that suggests during those seasons Henderson ranked amongst the top 5-10% for forward passes in the league?

https://fbref.com/en/players/935e6b8f/Jordan-Henderson

 

Look it up for yourself. You can look at prior years as well.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

https://fbref.com/en/players/935e6b8f/Jordan-Henderson

 

Look it up for yourself. You can look at prior years as well.

 

Nice man. This is great.

 

This season every 10 times he touches the ball he makes a progressive pass - am I reading that right?

 

How do you change the season?

[3 Stacks]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Nice man. This is great.

 

This season every 10 times he touches the ball he makes a progressive pass - am I reading that right?

 

How do you change the season?

You go to "view complete scouting report".

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

I'm not saying we'll find another Gini or Firmino. But if people want that similar Gini profile in midfield again, you have to make up for the lack of creativity from that position elsewhere. That's what I'm saying. Gini barely played the ball forward. If you're going to have forwards who majoritarily want the ball in space, like the ones we're collecting, you need someone in the middle of the pitch to have the quality to give them those passes and that makes movements that compliment theirs (like someone who plays between the lines, pulling defenders towards him)

I don't think I've seen anyone say, let's not have players play the ball forward and if there's a general theme I would say our loss of intensity is on most people's agenda. To be honest I find this idea "if you have x you need y" to be a little reductive. You're approaching this with a "most people think we're missing". So firstly I don't know who most people are. I think it's reasonable to say until bajcetic got in the side we've missed a player who can take the ball and move it on quickly from in tight spaces, but Gini did much more than to that. And our issues go beyond missing Gini. But we don't have to create 2018-2020, we just need to find a new way to do it, but learning from before. I'm sure other old fuckers like me will remember how Bob did exactly that with the team from our first European cup till he retired (in fact I'd argue up till his final gift of advising kenny on replacing rush before his 2nd retirement).  

 

This is a discussion from a Bobby firmino focus. You seem to think "most people" will get their way in the summer, so if we do, we need someone who's attributes match well with bobby. Personally I don't think we'll bring in a new Gini, or certainly that isn't what's on the plan and that'll be true of bobby.. we'll be looking for players with a range of attributes that we might just find across 2 or 3 players. Personally I think it's why we're so desperate to get Bellingham because we think he does so many different things well. But in the same way I think Diaz and gakpo have some of the abilities bobby has. And they're young, so they'll learn and bring more. You can already see a change in gakpo from when he joined. 

 

Personally I think if klopp is backed, he'll know if we need to add the balance you're looking for. We only get in trouble if klopp is restricted in the market like he is most seasons. But I think our current forward line has a bit more to it than you're giving it credit at the moment. And while I wouldn't be banking on it either, both carvalho and Elliot could well bring something in those central areas you mention. I actually thought we set up a little differently against wolves and Elliot did a lot of that work. 

 

The bottom line for me is I believe klopp will know how to balance the team. The only question is can he bring in who he wants. 

[TheHowieLama]

I'm trying man -- ended up here somehow, but it is not the same as the passing.

 

 

There is aloot in there. Trove. 

 

It does look like Gini in this season is by the more progressive - I want to look at other seasons.

[TheHowieLama]

Now I can't change the season -- GAH!

[stringvest]

5 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't think I've seen anyone say, let's not have players play the ball forward and if there's a general theme I would say our loss of intensity is on most people's agenda. To be honest I find this idea "if you have x you need y" to be a little reductive. You're approaching this with a "most people think we're missing". So firstly I don't know who most people are. I think it's reasonable to say until bajcetic got in the side we've missed a player who can take the ball and move it on quickly from in tight spaces, but Gini did much more than to that. And our issues go beyond missing Gini. But we don't have to create 2018-2020, we just need to find a new way to do it, but learning from before. I'm sure other old fuckers like me will remember how Bob did exactly that with the team from our first European cup till he retired (in fact I'd argue up till his final gift of advising kenny on replacing rush before his 2nd retirement).  

 

This is a discussion from a Bobby firmino focus. You seem to think "most people" will get their way in the summer, so if we do, we need someone who's attributes match well with bobby. Personally I don't think we'll bring in a new Gini, or certainly that isn't what's on the plan and that'll be true of bobby.. we'll be looking for players with a range of attributes that we might just find across 2 or 3 players. Personally I think it's why we're so desperate to get Bellingham because we think he does so many different things well. But in the same way I think Diaz and gakpo have some of the abilities bobby has. And they're young, so they'll learn and bring more. You can already see a change in gakpo from when he joined. 

 

Personally I think if klopp is backed, he'll know if we need to add the balance you're looking for. We only get in trouble is klopp is restricted in the market like he is most seasons. But I think our current forward line has a bit more to it than you're giving it credit at the moment. And while I wouldn't be banking on it either, both carvalho and Elliot could well bring something in those central areas you mention. I actually thought we set up a little differently against wolves and Elliot did a lot of that work. 

 

The bottom line for me is I believe klopp will know how to balance the team. The only question is can he bring in who he wants. 

I don't think it's reasonable to say that Bajcetic was the first player to move the ball forward quickly in tight spaces.  That's what Thiago excels at. Watch a video mate.  

[an tha]

16 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

I was talking to my mate yesterday about Thiago and we were both of the opinion we wouldn’t be surprised if he left this summer.

 

Not because we want him to, I think the fact his contract expires in ‘24 means this is our last chance to get a fee, he turns 32 next month, he’s fitness record is obviously poor and he allegedly earns >£200k per week (>£10m per season), in all it wouldn’t be unsurprising if we let him go.
 

A flip to this is given the above, what fee would we get? I think we’d be lucky to get £10m, likely less. Is it worth keeping him, using him more sporadically and to be a leader / mentor to the youngsters / new players? Given we’re likely bringing in at least 2 midfielders, they’ll be on a steep learning curve and likely need a lot of support.

One of the big problems we have is the constantly rotating cast in midfield - it is literally game in game out, we hardly ever put out same 3 - for me it affects cohesion, rhythm, conssitency and understanding.

 

Thiago's injury issues are a part of that.

 

For me we need reliability and consistency - and when we do choose to our need to rotate we need more like for like that we can slot in.

 

I am not convinced if we are going to rebuild and build another great team that Thiago has a part to play - I can see the argument for him having a reduced role and maybe the mentor stuff - just not convinced about it - personally i'd let him go.

[3 Stacks]

16 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't think I've seen anyone say, let's not have players play the ball forward and if there's a general theme I would say our loss of intensity is on most people's agenda. To be honest I find this idea "if you have x you need y" to be a little reductive. You're approaching this with a "most people think we're missing". So firstly I don't know who most people are. I think it's reasonable to say until bajcetic got in the side we've missed a player who can take the ball and move it on quickly from in tight spaces, but Gini did much more than to that. And our issues go beyond missing Gini. But we don't have to create 2018-2020, we just need to find a new way to do it, but learning from before. I'm sure other old fuckers like me will remember how Bob did exactly that with the team from our first European cup till he retired (in fact I'd argue up till his final gift of advising kenny on replacing rush before his 2nd retirement).  

 

This is a discussion from a Bobby firmino focus. You seem to think "most people" will get their way in the summer, so if we do, we need someone who's attributes match well with bobby. Personally I don't think we'll bring in a new Gini, or certainly that isn't what's on the plan and that'll be true of bobby.. we'll be looking for players with a range of attributes that we might just find across 2 or 3 players. Personally I think it's why we're so desperate to get Bellingham because we think he does so many different things well. But in the same way I think Diaz and gakpo have some of the abilities bobby has. And they're young, so they'll learn and bring more. You can already see a change in gakpo from when he joined. 

 

Personally I think if klopp is backed, he'll know if we need to add the balance you're looking for. We only get in trouble if klopp is restricted in the market like he is most seasons. But I think our current forward line has a bit more to it than you're giving it credit at the moment. And while I wouldn't be banking on it either, both carvalho and Elliot could well bring something in those central areas you mention. I actually thought we set up a little differently against wolves and Elliot did a lot of that work. 

 

The bottom line for me is I believe klopp will know how to balance the team. The only question is can he bring in who he wants. 

If you look at the 18-20 midfield. Fabinho is the 6 who wins duels, Gini conserves the ball and Hendo is the progressive one. They all did more than that, but that's sort of the vague summary, and the balance was great. Also, all 3 at peak athleticism. Then you had Firmino who at the same time, had midfield skills with grit and creativity, and he was a threat in the final 3rd.

 

Thiago basically fits with anybody because he's good at almost everything, but he's getting older. Hendo is still useful, but getting older and Fabinho has been Space Jam'd. All I'm arguing for is that we need complimentary players, but I'm not sure we really know what we're doing currently.