Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Not disingenuous at all.

 

There is no evidence - at least, not yet -  that pay increases in construction are permanent or that staff shortages in construction and hospitality are wholly - or even mainly - attributable to Brexit. It would be disingenuous to pretend that there is evidence of that.

 

Finding a Lib Dem who shares your opinion does not count as evidence. 

The 

 

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Not disingenuous at all.

 

There is no evidence - at least, not yet -  that pay increases in construction are permanent or that staff shortages in construction and hospitality are wholly - or even mainly - attributable to Brexit. It would be disingenuous to pretend that there is evidence of that.

 

Finding a Lib Dem who shares your opinion does not count as evidence. 

Oh but you were positive about their being no benefits to Brexit earlier despite the evidence laid out by the construction industry, 3 million worker which includes architects, hod carriers, quantity surveyors, carpenters and a whole host of differing trades and professions (not simply a few builders who don't understand economics as you mockingly commented on a few days ago) as for the lib dem advisor, it's hardly an opinion Angry  the service market has changed to the benefit of the employee, signs asking for Labour grace the countrys high streets. Your failure to grasp the simple context of employee/employer supply and demand illustrates why some in the Labour party are so out of touch with its traditional vote. 

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

35 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The 

 

Oh but you were positive about their being no benefits to Brexit earlier despite the evidence laid out by the construction industry, 3 million worker which includes architects, hod carriers, quantity surveyors, carpenters and a whole host of differing trades and professions (not simply a few builders who don't understand economics as you mockingly commented on a few days ago) as for the lib dem advisor, it's hardly an opinion Angry  the service market has changed to the benefit of the employee, signs asking for Labour grace the countrys high streets. Your failure to grasp the simple context of employee/employer supply and demand illustrates why some in the Labour party are so out of touch with its traditional vote. 

 

 

It's not a case of me being "positive despite evidence".  It's a case of the "evidence" being how I've described it. It doesn't prove what you claim it proves.

 

I didn't "mock" any builders for their lack of knowledge of economics.  You said any builder would know more about economics than I would; I said I'd be surprised (because I've studied economics a fair bit and it's a bit of an interest of mine).  I'm not saying I'm due a Nobel Prize or a professorship any time soon, but I know more about economics than the average person  (builders included).

 

You've posted that paywalled link a few times. I haven’t actually read what the Lib Dem advisor says, only the fact that you've trailed it with "a Lib Dem advisor says..."  The thing about facts, unlike opinions, is it doesn't matter who says them. If it is just facts - maybe that elusive evidence of the current upturn in construction pay being caused by Brexit (and not by any other restrictions to movement) - then why not copy and paste them instead of focusing on who said it.

 

As for "the simple context of supply and demand"... well, there's a phrase I keep coming back to which should probably be a subtitle to this whole thread: "I think you'll find it's not as simple as that".

[skend04]

Can't believe we've got posters, during a pandemic and Brexit where we're struggling at ports and material delays are increasing by months, suggesting that it's all fine to increase our dependency for food on countries thousands of miles away, whilst harming to an even greater extent our ability to be self reliant in future situations like we face now.

 

Koolade drinking mofo's 

[Gnasher]

25 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Can't believe we've got posters, during a pandemic and Brexit where we're struggling at ports and material delays are increasing by months, suggesting that it's all fine to increase our dependency for food on countries thousands of miles away, whilst harming to an even greater extent our ability to be self reliant in future situations like we face now.

 

Koolade drinking mofo's 

Except nobody is saying that.

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It's not a case of me being "positive despite evidence".  It's a case of the "evidence" being how I've described it. It doesn't prove what you claim it proves.

 

I didn't "mock" any builders for their lack of knowledge of economics.  You said any builder would know more about economics than I would; I said I'd be surprised (because I've studied economics a fair bit and it's a bit of an interest of mine).  I'm not saying I'm due a Nobel Prize or a professorship any time soon, but I know more about economics than the average person  (builders included).

Sorry but judging by your lack of understanding of basic economics on this thread I'd wager the average builder would jump over your head on the subject, still at least it gave you an opportunity to get the age old thick builder dig in. 

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 

You've posted that paywalled link a few times. I haven’t actually read what the Lib Dem advisor says, only the fact that you've trailed it with "a Lib Dem advisor says..."  The thing about facts, unlike opinions, is it doesn't matter who says them. If it is just facts - maybe that elusive evidence of the current upturn in construction pay being caused by Brexit (and not by any other restrictions to movement) - then why not copy and paste them instead of focusing on who said it.

 

As for "the simple context of supply and demand"... well, there's a phrase I keep coming back to which should probably be a subtitle to this whole thread: "I think you'll find it's not as simple as that".

 

"Not as simple as that?" oh please ffs please Angry, you know as well as any one Thatcher made it her economic policy to put millions on the dole to suppress wages, I bet even the builders of that time knew that.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Sorry but judging by your lack of understanding of basic economics on this thread I'd wager the average builder would jump over your head on the subject, still at least it gave you an opportunity to get the age old thick builder dig in. 

Yeah... you're not doing yourself any favours there.  It's not that I don't understand "basic supply & demand, innit".  It's that I understand enough to know that that argument is horseshit.

And - again - I've never called any builders thick. Feel free to shove that particular lie up yer hoop.

 

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

"Not as simple as that?" oh please ffs please Angry, you know as well as any one Thatcher made it her economic policy to put millions on the dole to suppress wages, I bet even the builders of that time knew that.

Where the fuck does Thatcher come into this?

You're arguing that wage fluctuations are a simple matter of labour  supply.  I'm pointing out  (correctly) that there's more to it than that... and then you exhume that witch, for some reason.  (For what it's worth, the main thing Thatcher did to suppress wages was break the unions; closing the mines, steel mills, etc. was a means to an end.)

[Gnasher]

28 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Yeah... you're not doing yourself any favours there.  It's not that I don't understand "basic supply & demand, innit".  It's that I understand enough to know that that argument is horseshit.

And - again - I've never called any builders thick. Feel free to shove that particular lie up yer hoop.

 

Where the fuck does Thatcher come into this?

You're arguing that wage fluctuations are a simple matter of labour  supply.  I'm pointing out  (correctly) that there's more to it than that... and then you exhume that witch, for some reason.  (For what it's worth, the main thing Thatcher did to suppress wages was break the unions; closing the mines, steel mills, etc. was a means to an end.)

Thatcher made it her economic policy to throw millions on the dole to enlarge the pool of people desperate for work, which meant wages would stagnate thereby increasing profits for the heads of buisness. The EU policy of farming mass labour from Easten Europe is a similar strategy. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

31 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Thatcher made it her economic policy to throw millions on the dole to enlarge the pool of people desperate for work, which meant wages would stagnate thereby increasing profits for the heads of buisness. The EU policy of farming mass labour from Easten Europe is a similar strategy. 

Well... that's one interpretation of events.  An incorrect interpretation, but an interpretation nonetheless.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

26 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

 it’s nonsense to say there is no link between the supply of labour and wages within a country in the short term.  

I don't think anybody is saying that. 

 

I think Gnash is saying that the supply of labour is the sole determinant of wages, and that's nonsense too.

[Bruce Spanner]

Q1 food and exports, around about a £2B pound  difference on previous, just on food and drinks.

 

Q2 ‘should’ show an increase, but looking grim still.

 

Well done all.

 

 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

This might be of interest to some.

 

It’s interviews with the campaign/spin managers from each side and goes in to how the manoeuvred against each other in the ever changing battlefield. Interesting to hear how the stitch up happened in real time.

 

Corbyn gets a kicking as he ‘left a space open to exploit’ as does Cameron. 
 

Worth an hour of your time. 

https://www.politico.eu/westminster-insider-podcast/?utm_source=POLITICO&utm_medium=Editorial&utm_campaign=WestminsterInsider&utm_content=Shortlink

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I don't think anybody is saying that. 

 

I think Gnash is saying that the supply of labour is the sole determinant of wages, and that's nonsense too.

No it's not what I'm saying however it is a hugh factor. I'm agreeing with the Lib Dem advisor when he points out the bleeding obvious that lack of potential employees has been beneficial to low paid workers. Not sure how long it'll last but the evidence is there in increased wages in Construction and service sector etc.

[Gnasher]

12 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Well... that's one interpretation of events.  An incorrect interpretation, but an interpretation nonetheless.

It's not incorrect, throwing millions on the dole was a political decision.

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

This might be of interest to some.

 

It’s interviews with the campaign/spin managers from each side and goes in to how the manoeuvred against each other in the ever changing battlefield. Interesting to hear how the stitch up happened in real time.

 

Corbyn gets a kicking as he ‘left a space open to exploit’ as does Cameron. 
 

Worth an hour of your time. 

https://www.politico.eu/westminster-insider-podcast/?utm_source=POLITICO&utm_medium=Editorial&utm_campaign=WestminsterInsider&utm_content=Shortlink

The latest one about Brexit?

[Gnasher]

18 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Worth mentioning, also, that I don't really give a fuck about the nationality of workers. I want all workers to have more rights. These great Brexit benefits that you're trumpeting are, at best, one group of workers gaining from another group being stripped of their rights. It's divide and rule and you're lapping it up.

Bollocks, it's overseas workers on mainly low incomes staying home or deciding to work in other countries. It does seem to irk you that working class kids are getting a bit of a break dosnt it? These people are not gaining at the expense of other workers they are gaining because employers finally have to appreciate their worth and employers also have to embark on more training and skills in their field of work whereas before they often took the lazy option of importing cheap and disposable labour.

[Bruce Spanner]

2 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

The latest one about Brexit?

Yeah, a really good, but infuriating listen.

[Gnasher]

20 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Worth mentioning, also, that I don't really give a fuck about the nationality of workers. I want all workers to have more rights. These great Brexit benefits that you're trumpeting are, at best, one group of workers gaining from another group being stripped of their rights. It's divide and rule and you're lapping it up.

From the ft a couple of years ago, this'll make your knuckles go white..

 

https://www.ft.com/content/9650dcc6-86b4-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

It's not incorrect, throwing millions on the dole was a political decision.

True. But the main point of doing that was to break the unions, because that's a more effective way of suppressing wages than relying on a blunt instrument like supply & demand.

 

Incidentally, I should probably apologise for the unnecessarily snarky tone of that "that's one interpretation" post. It's a perfectly valid interpretation and (I'm saying this to myself this time) it's a bit more complicated than my simplistic "it's all about the unions".  The reasons for Thatcher's political decision to throw so many out of work included crushing the unions, increasing the pool of exploitable jobseekers, breaking up nationalised industries and utilities in preparation for privatisation, destroying the nexuses of working class solidarity, etc. You and I could bicker all day about what the main reason was, but I'd rather just agree that she's an evil cunt who deserves to burn in Hell.

[Pureblood]

4 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Q1 food and exports, around about a £2B pound  difference on previous, just on food and drinks.

 

Q2 ‘should’ show an increase, but looking grim still.

 

Well done all.

 

 

 

Yeah but unicorn imports are up by umpteen imaginillion... So a bit of balance, please. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Cheese imports are down, so Liz will be happy. 

 

 

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/18/uk-faces-chilled-food-shortage-over-summer-logistics-industry-warns

 

Oh look, another benefit that Kurtz and Gnasher can talk about. 

[Gnasher]

59 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/18/uk-faces-chilled-food-shortag

59 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/18/uk-faces-chilled-food-shortage-over-summer-logistics-industry-warns

 

Oh look, another benefit that Kurtz and Gnasher can talk about. 

e-over-summer-logistics-industry-warns

 

Oh look, another benefit that Kurtz and Gnasher can talk about. 

 

Hmmm "shortages in drivers, packaging and production workers" so great news if you work in those fields.

[skend04]

18 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Hmmm "shortages in drivers, packaging and production workers" so great news if you work in those fields.

You best brush off your CV then and you best pack my Petit Filous properly otherwise I know where you post 

[Gnasher]

19 minutes ago, skend04 said:

You best brush off your CV then and you best pack my Petit Filous properly otherwise I know where you post 

How very pompous of you.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

 

Hmmm "shortages in drivers, packaging and production workers" so great news if you work in those fields.

There is (apparently) between 50-100k gap of HGV drivers.