Leverkusen's Net spend

[Tom R]

Spending nothing and playing decent football, without trying to control games has not done Burnley much good.

 

And don't think West Brom fans would agree with that approach

 

Do Burnley and West Browm have our players now do they??

 

Are they established Champions League clubs, who were champions of europe just five years ago?

 

Jesus fucking christ. There's some huge piles of bad smelly poo poo just dripping out from people's mouths on here these days.

 

Stop it.

[navbasi]

I'd give my hind leg to be in with a chance with 11 games to go.

 

 

 

No offence taken Dirk.

 

I'm sure Leverkusen fans would swap with you any day.

[WaltonRed]

I'm sure they would Nav.

 

Brilliant post that Tom about West Brom and Burnely.

 

Remember who you support people.

[toneloc]

Do Burnley and West Browm have our players now do they??

 

Are they established Champions League clubs, who were champions of europe just five years ago?

 

 

No but we have had to spend to get those players - no spend = no champions of Europe

 

The starting point of this thread was comparing us to Leverkusen who have spent nothing

 

I agree that Liverpool cannot be compared to West Brom and Burnley, so by the same virtue, neither can we be compared to Leverkusen

[05 Milan]

Heynckes has done well there, but maybe we should see how this pans out long term. If Leverkusen continue to finish above where their spending predicts for the next, say, five six seasons, then I will start to accept this as counter evidence to the wages/spending theory.

 

However, to use Leverkusens standing in the league mid-season as proof that the theory is false, is missing the point. Yet again.

[Kennys_spell]

I didn't do any name calling. But carry on....

 

When Benitez finally fucks of to Juve (please, god, can it be today??) then you might just take your head out of your arse and then you'll see that this particular adult was right along.

 

Shocker.

 

Oh I see so "Shut your mouth, there's poo everywhere" is classed as an erudite, cogent approach to debate is it?

 

Followed by "Then you might just take your head out of your arse" - how can I hope to counter such wit and intellect?

 

I give in.

[redrosetints]

Just wondering what those people who think we are were we are because we dont spend enough money on players and wages think of Bayer Leverkusen who are currently top of the German 1st division.

 

Bayer Leverkusen Transfers

 

They've spent next to nothing in the past few seasons.

 

Bayern and Wolfsburg have far outspent them.

 

Its a statistacal analysis isnt it mate, so this would be within the variation. There is nothing to say you cant win the league onm a lower wage spend, just that history (stats) shows us its more unlikely. The stats simply relefect history, and they say if you spend more on wages you will, over time, achieve higher finishes.

 

We were (maybe) top this time last year and we bucked the trend.

 

The correlation between wages and position is 90% so there is always that chance someone wil buck the stats, as we did last year, but you'd expect over, say, ten seasons, that Leverkusen will not be top.

 

Fair play to them. However, the season hasnt yet finished.

[SiliconeSoul]

Why do I have a vision of a baying mob of apologists...

[Kennys_spell]

Why do I have a vision of a baying mob of apologists...

 

Let me get this right - you're asking us what goes on in your head?

 

Jeez!!

[lukem]

TomR, I actually agree with your points but you put them across like a right twat.

 

There is no way on Earth that you would speak to somebody down the pub like that, having the same conversation. Even if you did, you'd often get your head kicked in.

[Best Believe It]

Why do I have a vision of a baying mob of apologists...

 

Liver pains causing hallucinations?

[redrosetints]

So if we chose to play proper football instead of the turd we've been served for years by Benitez then we'd go down??

 

Close your mouth. There's fuckin poo everywhere.

 

havent we moved on from the proper football debate though Tom ?

 

Only Arsenal play 'proper' football and many of their own fans are sick of it (ridiculous if you ask me, but there you go).

 

Mourinhios chelsea played the same was as Rafas, United are still the counter attack kings.

 

Our least succesfull manager since Shankly was Evans, who also played the most attractive 'proper' football.

 

As Paisley said, its not about the long or short ball, but the right ball. Ditto style of play, under Rafa we have played some poo this season, I agree, but under Rafa last season we played our best football since Dalglishs last 80's teams. We need the possesion and security, but we also need to build up the pace in attack, in mitigation that also comes from playing together and building those partnerships, understandings, that we've just not been able to so far this season.

 

Crucially, I dont think Rafas idea is to play 'poo' football, wheneveer its clicked its always possesion based, yes, but its also fast paced and clinical, teams are just overwhelmed. However, we see it all too little these days.

 

I made th esame point this time last year and we went on our run. At its best, Rafas football isnt poo, its a delight, we just need to see it consistantly and this season, I dont think we've seen it once, to be fair.

 

For Rafas system to work it needs fullbacks going forward and width, last year saw both Arbeloa and Aurelio contributing more and of course Dossenas cameos vs madrid, at Old Trafford and even at Craven Cottage. We also had Reira who although jnot everyones cup of tea, does stay wide and does give us shape.

 

This year, both the fullbacks were out, Insua was finding his feet (not sure they are yet found, but he's more stable now, for the games) while Johnson is clearly a great buy, but out injured.

 

I suspect that our current plight has brought some caution out in Rafa, understandable really, but once Johnson is back and the likes of Yossi, Torres and gerrard back in form we'll, hopefully, see a return to last seasons epic work.

 

Id certainly agree that unless we start to see that utopia again and personally, I mean by the mid point next season, the poor results coupled with poor play will see Rafa haivng to go. Its what did for Ged inteh end and it will be the same for Rafa.

[Tom R]

There is no way on Earth that you would speak to somebody down the pub like that, having the same conversation. Even if you did, you'd often get your head kicked in.

 

Yes I would.

 

And no I wouldn't.

[TommyW]

isnt this just a slightly different approach to starting the same old argument?

 

why do it?

[AmerScouse]

i wonder, is our squad today better or worse than the squad that won the champions league and finished 5th in the premier league?

 

cause last i checked, benitez was the manager of the champions league winning team.

 

so the question i'd ask is why are so many focusing on his coaching when he's got plenty of history to back up the fact that he's top drawer? shouldn't this discussion be about our need for a director of football to buy the players instead of benitez since its his number 1 weakness?

 

it is my belief that the more money you spend on a player the less risk there is because they are usually a fairly known quantity. but its obvious that benitez obviously misjudges the quality or adaptability of players or he puts too much faith in macia which is still his responsibility.

 

the man is a winner, i just think someone needs to take away his ability to control transfers for senior players.

[Tom R]

i wonder, is our squad today better or worse than the squad that won the champions league and finished 5th in the premier league?

 

cause last i checked, benitez was the manager of the champions league winning team.

 

so the question i'd ask is why are so many focusing on his coaching when he's got plenty of history to back up the fact that he's top drawer? shouldn't this discussion be about our need for a director of football to buy the players instead of benitez since its his number 1 weakness?

 

it is my belief that the more money you spend on a player the less risk there is because they are usually a fairly known quantity. but its obvious that benitez obviously misjudges the quality or adaptability of players or he puts too much faith in macia which is still his responsibility.

 

the man is a winner, i just think someone needs to take away his ability to control transfers for senior players.

 

That just is never going to happen though.

 

I've said it myself many times - Benitez is a world class coach and tactician. possibly the best in the business. But he's a mind boggingly turd manager of men and his ability to spot a player and then develop them accordingly is beyond the pale.

 

Give him a great squad with great players and he can do the business, but when it comes to actually building a squad he is completely useless.

He's never done it before either. When it came to start rebuilding at Valencia "they" wouldn't let him. I think we're all now seeing why - because he's fucking useless at it.

 

i like the idea of a Director of football to be honest, even though it's never taken off in England. I like that there's a constant presence even though managers and players will come and go. Surely it can add some stability?

But, and it's a massive but, surely finding a decent director of football when the role doesn't really even exist in england, will be even more difficult than finding a world class manager?

 

A director of football scenario will never fly here, so the only answer is to get rid of the manager.

[AmerScouse]

i think he does a good job of developing players. you need only look at the likes of torres and gerrard and arbeloa and carra etc to see that he takes players and improves them as well.

 

the issue is with him buying players and playing them out of position, i get that argument.

 

i think a director of football is realistic. it may not be realistic to have it now with benitez as manager because it ends up undermining him, but surely if we were to hire a new manager a director of football could be brought in at the same time.

 

i honestly believe that we need to understand macia's impact in all of this before we could judge further. it may be a flaw of rafa's that he trusts him implicitly, but it could be that macia is the worst judge of talent. that said if rafa thinks that then he should be sacked straight away.

 

i don't agree with all the we can only buy 8million pound players stuff because there are good players to be found or the philosophy of quality over quantity could be used. that said, transfers are hit or miss and it happens to the best, but i think our percentages are lower than most.

[Tom R]

i think he does a good job of developing players. you need only look at the likes of torres and gerrard and arbeloa and carra etc to see that he takes players and improves them as well.

 

the issue is with him buying players and playing them out of position, i get that argument.

 

i think a director of football is realistic. it may not be realistic to have it now with benitez as manager because it ends up undermining him, but surely if we were to hire a new manager a director of football could be brought in at the same time.

 

i honestly believe that we need to understand macia's impact in all of this before we could judge further. it may be a flaw of rafa's that he trusts him implicitly, but it could be that macia is the worst judge of talent. that said if rafa thinks that then he should be sacked straight away.

 

i don't agree with all the we can only buy 8million pound players stuff because there are good players to be found or the philosophy of quality over quantity could be used. that said, transfers are hit or miss and it happens to the best, but i think our percentages are lower than most.

 

Not being funny mate, but even with my dead Nan in charge Torres, Carragher and Gerrard would do well and be considered amongst the best around!

 

getting the world's best players to play relatively well is fucking easy and deserves very little credit at all, frankly. I'm sorry, but that's actually the very minimum requirement!!

 

It's in getting the dozens and dozens of players we've had with potential to perform is where a really good manager comes to the fore, and it's where Benitez has failed on almost every single occasion. Good players either get shipped out for reasons known only to him, or they get destroyed by him and left to rot. Or tehy were just way too shit to have ever been here in the first place.

 

As for the Macia thing. Yeah, he's obviously clueless as well, but that doesn't excuse Benitez. Not one bit.

If I could see that Dossena was a steaming pile of doggy doo within all of about five minutes, then why can't the manager of our club see it as well?

There is quite simply no excuse for that.

[redrosetints]

Not being funny mate, but even with my dead Nan in charge Torres, Carragher and Gerrard would do well and be considered amongst the best around!

 

getting the world's best players to play relatively well is fucking easy and deserves very little credit at all, frankly. I'm sorry, but that's actually the very minimum requirement!!

 

It's in getting the dozens and dozens of players we've had with potential to perform is where a really good manager comes to the fore, and it's where Benitez has failed on almost every single occasion. Good players either get shipped out for reasons known only to him, or they get destroyed by him and left to rot. Or tehy were just way too shit to have ever been here in the first place.

 

As for the Macia thing. Yeah, he's obviously clueless as well, but that doesn't excuse Benitez. Not one bit.

If I could see that Dossena was a steaming pile of doggy doo within all of about five minutes, then why can't the manager of our club see it as well?

There is quite simply no excuse for that.

 

Didnt Rafa develop Reina, Agger, Torres, Masch, Xabi, Sissoko, Gerrard, Carra and Crouch ?

Didnt Rafa turn Carra into a top class centre back, from a decent Right back ?

Didnt Rafa turn Gerrard into the best attacking mid in the world, from a restricted central mid player ?

Arent Torres and Gerrard the best strike partnership in the prem ?

Werent Xabi and MAsch the perfect blend ?

Isnt Agger and Carra one of the best centre back parternships in the league ?

Didnt a great lad once say Crouch was 'fin luke chadwick on stilts' FLCOS and now bemoans FLCOS departure ? ;)

 

Why did FLCOS leave ? Bad man management ? possibly, Crouch wanting to further his England claims by being first choice ? possibly, because Rafa wanted to change the style and emphasis of the team ? possibly, we needed money to spend, had Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt as strikers and Crouch was the most saleable asset left ?possibly.

 

no more Squad players was the cry, yet Crouch was a squad player behind Torres and Gerrard.

 

However, theres no doubt we've f'd up the last 18 months in teh transfer market, absolutely no doubt and its clear the Paco (H, not Pako A) effect, has been far reaching.

[Tom R]

Didnt Rafa develop Reina, Agger, Torres, Masch, Xabi, Sissoko, Gerrard, Carra and Crouch ?

Didnt Rafa turn Carra into a top class centre back, from a decent Right back ?

Didnt Rafa turn Gerrard into the best attacking mid in the world, from a restricted central mid player ?

Arent Torres and Gerrard the best strike partnership in the prem ?

Werent Xabi and MAsch the perfect blend ?

Isnt Agger and Carra one of the best centre back parternships in the league ?

Didnt a great lad once say Crouch was 'fin luke chadwick on stilts' FLCOS and now bemoans FLCOS departure ?

 

Why did FLCOS leave ? Bad man management ? possibly, Crouch wanting to further his England claims by being first choice ? possibly, because Rafa wanted to change the style and emphasis of the team ? possibly, we needed money to spend, had Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt as strikers and Crouch was the most saleable asset left ?possibly.

 

no more Squad players was the cry, yet Crouch was a squad player behind Torres and Gerrard.

 

However, theres no doubt we've f'd up the last 18 months in teh transfer market, absolutely no doubt and its clear the Paco (H, not Pako A) effect, has been far reaching.

 

 

"Didnt Rafa develop Reina, Agger, Torres, Masch, Xabi, Sissoko, Gerrard, Carra and Crouch ? "

 

Ok, here we go - he did his utmost to fucking destroy Peter Crouch!

 

Kuyt is fucking shit and at times should have bee laughed out the changing rooms for even putting his boots on, nevermind being first name on the team sheet every week.

 

Agger has done just about fuck all. Ever.

 

Sissoko was a really good player who was binned off and replaced with total fucking shit. See also Alonso, Bellamy, Crouch etc

 

You're actually counting some of his most massive failures as a manager as his successes??? What the fuck is wrong with you???

 

Gerrard and carra? Piss off.

For a start they were already here before they arrived. He's getting fuck all credit for them and I bet neither would give a flying shit if benitez was never seen at anfield ever again.

 

Torres?? Dont' make me laugh. He was an amazing player from the very first second we signed him, right from the very off on his home debut when he raped Chelsea. He was wanted by all kinds of top clubs and he'd do well under any manager on earth. Taking plaudits for players of his ilk performing is just fucking embarassing, frankly. That's EASY.

 

he can some back for the plaudits when he gets a player of Babel or Riera's ilk to actually fucking play well. He never has and he never will. The ones who do start performing well generally get sold and replaced with shit, as I said above.

 

Mascherano?? You do knopw he cost us EIGHTEEN MILLION POUNDS yeah? That's hardly developing an unfinished player is it???

 

I'll give you Reina though - he's a gem and he's come on leaps and bound.

 

Nice one. So there's one undisputable success story when it comes to developing a relatively unpolished talent.

 

 

Listen, it's not my fault Benitez is a total fucking failure when it comes to signing and developing promising players.

[05 Milan]

Why do I have a vision of a baying mob of apologists...

 

That's just a vague memory of your recurring nightmare. Much like that no-show at Otterspool.

[Guest PurpleNose]

"Didnt Rafa develop Reina, Agger, Torres, Masch, Xabi, Sissoko, Gerrard, Carra and Crouch ? "

 

Ok, here we go - he did his utmost to fucking destroy Peter Crouch!

 

Kuyt is fucking shit and at times should have bee laughed out the changing rooms for even putting his boots on, nevermind being first name on the team sheet every week.

 

Agger has done just about fuck all. Ever.

 

Sissoko was a really good player who was binned off and replaced with total fucking shit. See also Alonso, Bellamy, Crouch etc

 

You're actually counting some of his most massive failures as a manager as his successes??? What the fuck is wrong with you???

 

Gerrard and carra? Piss off.

For a start they were already here before they arrived. He's getting fuck all credit for them and I bet neither would give a flying shit if benitez was never seen at anfield ever again.

 

Torres?? Dont' make me laugh. He was an amazing player from the very first second we signed him, right from the very off on his home debut when he raped Chelsea. He was wanted by all kinds of top clubs and he'd do well under any manager on earth. Taking plaudits for players of his ilk performing is just fucking embarassing, frankly. That's EASY.

 

he can some back for the plaudits when he gets a player of Babel or Riera's ilk to actually fucking play well. He never has and he never will. The ones who do start performing well generally get sold and replaced with shit, as I said above.

 

Mascherano?? You do knopw he cost us EIGHTEEN MILLION POUNDS yeah? That's hardly developing an unfinished player is it???

 

I'll give you Reina though - he's a gem and he's come on leaps and bound.

 

Nice one. So there's one undisputable success story when it comes to developing a relatively unpolished talent.

 

 

Listen, it's not my fault Benitez is a total fucking failure when it comes to signing and developing promising players.

 

Excellent post.

 

If its satire.

[Tom R]

Excellent post.

 

If its satire.

 

I think you'll find it's all completely accurate actually.

 

If you want to have a go at someone about it then get on the manager's back, not mine.

['Kaka]

Here's why Leverkusen are doing well - they don't have two of football's all time great managers and a well run bottomless pit to contend with.

 

They might have a bottomless pit to contend with, but the management is inept, which balances it out.

[Hermes]

Just wondering what those people who think we are were we are because we dont spend enough money on players and wages think of Bayer Leverkusen who are currently top of the German 1st division.

 

Bayer Leverkusen Transfers

 

They've spent next to nothing in the past few seasons.

 

Bayern and Wolfsburg have far outspent them.

 

Maybe Kuper's book has yet to be translated into German.