Something I've been meaning to get off my chest for some time, regarding Rafa.

[Guest TK-421]

Rather, it's persistence with the likes of Kuyt in must-win games where there is no conceivable threat from the opposition left side and everything to be gained from playing a creative or pacy player instead that most people struggle to get their head around. I don't have to wait until I'm right about this, I'm right now, as I am with the rest of my post.

 

Your arrogance knows no bounds. You sit there pompously telling us all how it's done and why Rafa doesn't get it right. Yours is the only way. Why aren't you a football manager?

[Christian]

This is the passion that fills up the !Jazz! Meter when Men of !Jazz! meet up.

!Cigar!

!non-defeat!

 

Top post.

[aws]

Great post Chris.

[Guest LFD]

We'll see what happens at home against Aston Villa. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be dumped firmly back in the camp of not being able to forgive him after yet another dire home performance

 

So you are constantly fluctuating your opinion on Rafa game by game...

 

That ridiculous!

 

Either you back him or you don't!

[ottawa_lfc]

Great post Chris, well done. Very articulate and well thought out. Top class.

 

Brownie, that Stoke game is a complete red herring. We were very, very attack minded in that game - positive, aggressive -- and if Torres had been anything like his usual self, he alone would have scored a hatful.

[Little Sammy]

For me it boils down to this: I fully blame Rafa for blowing the league title this season. It's 100% his fault that we arent top and flying now. He's the gaffer and the buck stops there. Period.

His bizarre subs, his cautious approach, his selection of woeful player picked not on form or merit but on god knows what. And on it goes. It's his fault and nobody elses.

However, I'm not so blind that I can't see that he's also the man that got us in to the position of a challenge in the first place.

 

Chris rightly says that we're reliant on Gerrard and Torres, and their absence of joint playing time has cost us, and I agree with that 100%. But that's a seriously bad thing indeed, and that's also Rafa's fault, 100%. At the end of the day he's very lucky to have inherited the world's best player in Gerrard, and what we're saying here is that he's only managed to sign one other player capable of dragging a team to a league title. That's surely just not good enough, is it?

 

So the question I have to ask myself is "can I forgive Rafa for throwing away a league title and giv him another chance?"

 

After the week we've just had, the kneejerk answer is a resounding YES! But then I think back to almost every other game this season, and the way in which he's behaved at times, and the answer is a resounding and resolute absolute fucking NO.

 

That sums us up under Rafa. My biggest concern is I've had the same feeling at the end of the last 2 seasons as well! When do you accept that it just isn't going to change? ]

If a high quality alternative was on the cards then I'd like to see them come in, but they have to have some serious credentials.

 

We'll see what happens at home against Aston Villa. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be dumped firmly back in the camp of not being able to forgive him after yet another dire home performance

Now that's what I'm talking about! Totally agree there... Rafa has done a wonderful job, especially in Europe, but I'm afraid some people are just too fickle. One minute they're calling for Rafa's head, and the next he's the new Messiah. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in between, but I still believe that the buck stops with the manager, especially with his bizarre substitutions in January.

[Tom R]

So you are constantly fluctuating your opinion on Rafa game by game...

 

No, not at all! I think my feelings on Rafa have been clearer than just about anyone on here for just about longer than anyone as well. I don't think we will win the league with him. It's that simple.

 

What I was trying to say, in fact I'm pretty sure I did say (?), was that the kneejerk reaction after this week is back him, and that's understandable, because as fans we live in the moment. But because I remember every other week of this season, and they've almost all been excrutiatingly shite and painful to watch, I'm not allowing one great league away game, to cloud my judgement.

 

I thought I made my point pretty well, but obviously not. Hope that clears it up.

[philyhamann]

I agree with Tom, its nothing to do with any agendas, he just won't win the league. We'll lose one of our games or draw one of our home ones, bank on it. I hope I am wrong, the Mancs collapse and we win all our games, but thats fantasy land. This was our best chance to win the league for some time, and he has blown it with shit buys in the Summer, and shit house tactics. I think he should get a new contract though, but certainly not 5 years.

[Whelan]

I agree with Tom, its nothing to do with any agendas, he just won't win the league. We'll lose one of our games or draw one of our home ones, bank on it. I hope I am wrong, the Mancs collapse and we win all our games, but thats fantasy land. This was our best chance to win the league for some time, and he has blown it with shit buys in the Summer, and shit house tactics. I think he should get a new contract though, but certainly not 5 years.

 

The 5 years is just as much a way of protecting us though as well as offering him security, players don't tend to be given 2-3 year contracts, they tend to be 4-5 so that you are covered. If you give him a two year one then we could very well be discussing this same thing the same time next year!

 

With regards to your post, philly you cannot be so definate, you stated that we would deffo get twatted on saturday! you simply cannot be so sure!

 

And as I have said earlier, shit house tactics are not necessarily the reason we are not top, Everton and Wigan away we were a goal up! City and Boro away were not shithouse tactics. It isn't that simple, which is why there are different opinions accross the board.

[Tom R]

If there was genuinely not a single high calibre replacement, and we finished a very narrow second then I'd possibly entertain a 12 months extension and absolutely nothing more. But then trhat just smacks of dead man walking and it's not ideal for anyone. It would have to be a clean break if we fail this season, which we will.

 

His remit was to win the league on comparatively limited resources that we have. He quite simply hasn't done it. Harsh maybe, but that's tough shit.

 

Your job spec is your job spec and if you don't fulfil it then youhave to go. It's like that in any walk of life.

[ToxtethTerror]

So once in 20 years ? I think that shows its exactly why we should be sticking with Rafa, not getting rid.

 

Three times in 15 years, once by Rafa in 5, once by Houllier in 6 and once by Evans in 4...

[Tom R]

By the way, a five year contract only really protects but Rafa at the moment.

 

If he gets a five year deal, and then buys badly in the summer (and why wouldn't he? He normally does) then we'll be in the same position this time next year and it will cost us an absolute fortune to get shut.

[Roy Hobbs]

If there was genuinely not a single high calibre replacement, and we finished a very narrow second then I'd possibly entertain a 12 months extension and absolutely nothing more. But then trhat just smacks of dead man walking and it's not ideal for anyone. It would have to be a clean break if we fail this season, which we will.

 

His remit was to win the league on comparatively limited resources that we have. He quite simply hasn't done it. Harsh maybe, but that's tough shit.

 

Your job spec is your job spec and if you don't fulfil it then youhave to go. It's like that in any walk of life.

 

Start a protest march. Good luck.

[wiiksie]

Just out of interest, where is it documented that Rafa's job spec was to 'win the league'? I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to agree to that in their contract given the state we were in in 2004.

[Whelan]

If there was genuinely not a single high calibre replacement, and we finished a very narrow second then I'd possibly entertain a 12 months extension and absolutely nothing more. But then trhat just smacks of dead man walking and it's not ideal for anyone. It would have to be a clean break if we fail this season, which we will.

 

His remit was to win the league on comparatively limited resources that we have. He quite simply hasn't done it. Harsh maybe, but that's tough shit.

 

Your job spec is your job spec and if you don't fulfil it then youhave to go. It's like that in any walk of life.

 

Where does it say that!

come on your not stupid! you're a big perv...but your not stupid!

 

And in what time frame, the magical five years? seven years? or was it three and we let him carry on with hope in our hearts?

 

His job is the same as all those who have preceded him and that is to build a side that consistently challenges for top honours, and your right the league is 'the one'

 

He has the hardest job of any Liverpool manager since Shankly, and it is a different ball game now, I think he has done enough this year to warrant a couple more years at least, if next year we are in Arsenals position I might change my opinion, but as it stands now, no chance.

 

At least from my retarded point of view!

[philyhamann]

We have some total losers following us if they don't think our manager was brought in to win the league.

[Code]

I have not read the whole thread yet, so bare with me if the points have already been raised.

 

But dont you just love it, we have had two superb reults against the mancs and Real and now every problem we have seems to cease to exist.

 

Thats really great stuff, hopefully reality will not hit you too hard in the face next time we struggle to break down a mid table team or someone fighting in an relegation battle.

 

Both the mancs and Madrid have used a system and set up which have played it right into our hands, these games have never been the problem, not even when we used to lose 1-0 from a scrappy goal against the mancs, we have been the better team during these matches the last couple of seasons but this time around we took our chances.

 

I`ll ask just one question for those who now think everything is rosy.

 

How did most of our goals come against both the mancs and Real, could you notice a pattern we will not see much of against the Blackburns, Boltons and Fulhams of this world?

[aws]

I'd give him a five year contract as soon as he'll sign it. We can then have some kind of stability in at least one element of the club.

 

If we did decide to sack him then it wouldn't cost us any more in practice as he'll walk into another job and I can't see him doing a Sven by sitting on his arse until the contract runs down.

[Whelan]

We have some total losers following us if they don't think our manager was brought in to win the league.

 

You know there are much better ways of articulating your points of view without sounding like such a twat!! FFS So everyone who disagrees with you is a loser? You'd antagonise someone in a coma!

 

And Code, considering the fact that most of the people arguing in favour of Rafa are the same ones who were arguing for him AFTER the Boro defeat, don't think you can accuse everyone of jumping on the bandwagon!

 

You choose to pick out individual results that back up your arguments, others choose to pick out different results to back up theirs!

[aws]

I have not read the whole thread yet, so bare with me if the points have already been raised.

 

But dont you just love it, we have had two superb reults against the mancs and Real and now every problem we have seems to cease to exist.

 

Thats really great stuff, hopefully reality will not hit you too hard in the face next time we struggle to break down a mid table team or someone fighting in an relegation battle.

 

Both the mancs and Madrid have used a system and set up which have played it right into our hands, these games have never been the problem, not even when we used to lose 1-0 from a scrappy goal against the mancs, we have been the better team during these matches the last couple of seasons but this time around we took our chances.

 

I`ll ask just one question for those who now think everything is rosy.

 

How did most of our goals come against both the mancs and Real, could you notice a pattern we will not see much of against the Blackburns, Boltons and Fulhams of this world?

 

 

most of them (62.5%) being scored when alonso wasn't on the pitch?

[philyhamann]

That is absolute fucking nonsense

 

You have absolutely no idea what the relationship between Rafa and Hicks is like, and yet you use it as an excuse the have a pop at him

 

I'm all for reasoned debate but peddling that shite is ridiculous.

 

And in regards to your point about Keane, granted, he was an awful signing in retrospect (I couldn't understand it at the time either but anyway) but would you not agree we are a bit light up top when Torres is unavailable?

 

You're right, I don't have a clue but this is some of the stuff that has been said and I have been led to believe its true. He might not be going round to Hicks house and having tea, but Hicks is supposedly willing to speak with him or communicate with him and Rafa likes that. I'm sure Rafa would rather have other owners, but that does not justify strengthening Hicks position and politicing to get Parry out only to replace him with Hicks' main man.

 

We only played one upfront for the vast majority of last season, we certainly didn't need to spend 20m on Keane - not only did we not need him at all, but he isn't even worth that. We bought Dirk as a striker, play him there or get rid of him and we should've spent the money on the right of midfield. I think Nemeth could've done a job, and we bought N'Gog too who has shown some promise in the one game he played. I can not for the life of me understand why we bought Keane, and broke up Torres/Gerrard which is something people are chalking up to injury when its not true.

[philyhamann]

You know there are much better ways of articulating your points of view without sounding like such a twat!! FFS So everyone who disagrees with you is a loser? You'd antagonise someone in a coma!

 

And Code, considering the fact that most of the people arguing in favour of Rafa are the same ones who were arguing for him AFTER the Boro defeat, don't think you can accuse everyone of jumping on the bandwagon!

 

You choose to pick out individual results that back up your arguments, others choose to pick out different results to back up theirs!

 

He was brought in to win the league, or at least challenge for it. The idea that he wasn't is ludicrous, and is a total losers point of view. We exist to win trophies, not secure third/fourth spot every season.

[Whelan]

He was brought in to win the league, or at least challenge for it. The idea that he wasn't is ludicrous, and is a total losers point of view. We exist to win trophies, not secure third/fourth spot every season.

 

I dont think I said anything different to that to be honest Philly, I completly agree with you over that! I think we can win the league, regardless of what United and Chelsea spend, and you are right regarding Keane (although I was quite happy when we bought him) we didn't particular need him, but I think we are improving, slower than other people would like obviously but I think we are, I am dissapointed at the way this season has turned out since christmas but I dont necessarily lay that all at the door of the manager.

[Code]

most of them being scored when alonso wasn't on the pitch?

 

No.

 

Most of them scored as a consequense of both teams leaving space behind for us to exploit.

 

The teams we struggle to break down dont offer us such gifts as they dont really try to win the games, 1 point is small victory for these team anyway.

 

Another thing I need to comment on is this Gerrard-Torres combination or lack of everyone now is commenting on because A.Gray could not stop harping on about it on Saturday.

 

Well its true, they have started only 9 games together, giving us 6 wins and 3 draws.

 

Statistically that would be 18 wins and 9 draws after 27 games, not much different from the 17 wins, 10 draws and 2 losses we now have after 29 games. ;)

[diego]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion even the gossipy and very strange old biddies on here who clubbed together in a pathetic attempt to undermine the club by attacking Rafa over many months. What was reprehensible about the scab-pickers of TLW was not that they criticised Rafa but that they made most of it up to suit their agenda. They consciously encouraged and amplified the distorted coverage of the club given by some media.

 

They would suggest they were in possession of information from a player or a player's friend or, God forgive us, from a NoW tabloid hack who makes money by claiming or insinuating without proof that he talks to players or officials at the club. In doing this they tried to undercut reasoned objections to what they were doing by suggesting their information trumped rational analysis. They were liars or, what is worse, they recklessly relied on liars.

 

Some of them wasted thousands of words spinning theories about Rafa's motivations or the circumstances of his position. They were profoundly ignorant and wrong about those things. It seemed that they hoped to do damage by the sheer volume and repetition of their rubbish.

 

TLW became known as the site to go to discover the most spiteful and ridiculous office gossip about Rafa. It has certainly not been TLW's finest hour.