This 3rd World Debt Malarky

[aws]

Like tax credits?

[bri]

Points Ive thought about recently

 

im too cynical with regard to the states and what they'll do if they get their hand deeply into Africa. The South American / World Bank experiment part 2.

 

Also no offence hear but a fair amount of african governments are corrupt as fuck whoever you put into power corruption is rife as. Ok so we cancel the debt. Cheers for that lets run up another.

 

Agreed the work Geldof has done, doing has helped shape world awareness of the problems and fair play to that.

 

something like 1 in 40 people in some african countries has aids how do you deal with that issue. hard enough trying to educate the viki pollards of the world never mind other nations?

 

Also I'd like to see some of the same effort being put around this weekend into this place. For the last few years Ive worked on some of the worst housing estates in the UK and I see good decent people living in absolute povety. Believe you me there are levels of living you cant imagine in this country

[MLB]

The AIDS problem would be easier to deal with if it wasn't for the Christian fundamentalists in American insisting on the reinstatement of the global gag rule. Like abstinence only sex education is EVER going to work. Fuckwits.

[gordon bennett]

Why tax the poor men in the rich countries and give the money to the rich men in poor countries?

 

 

Third World Debt= tax the poor men in the poor countries and give the money to the rich men in rich countries?

[gordon bennett]

 

For the last few years Ive worked on some of the worst housing estates in the UK and I see good decent people living in absolute povety. Believe you me there are levels of living you cant imagine in this country

 

 

I've worked in some of the worst estates in this country, and I've seen poverty in Africa. The gap between them is the size of TNS/LFC. I felt physically sick, and nearly was on one occasion in Africa.

 

And it's these people who are paying the debt. Where the leaders of a country are trying to do the right thing, and some of them are, we've got to stop leeching debt off the country.

( :no Mugabe, that ain't you :no )

[bri]

when we talk of the debt what are we talking about here. Is it loans, businesses or just all interest.

 

What I was trying to say was the conditions Ive seen here are relative to the country we live in. Ive not seen Africa myself but have seen the back streets of india, indonesia, nepal etc and seen how the west treats these countries so can imagine what its like.

[Hermes]

Third World Debt= tax the poor men in the poor countries and give the money to the rich men in rich countries?

 

Like Robert Mugabe? Living in a muli-million pound house while his people starve due to his policies.

[cochcaer]

when we talk of the debt what are we talking about here. Is it loans, businesses or just all interest..

 

Loans from the World Bank and IMF often originally taken out many decades ago.

[Hermes]

Maybe the G8 leaders will find some compassion and give money to a man obviously in desperate need:

 

Bush: "Here, get yourself a shave, haircut and a bath"

 

Geldof: "Fuck'n tanks Guv"

[Nick Leeson]

Apparently westcott credit services are offering all the delegates at the G8 a 50% discount on their services.

 

I think it's a bloody good idea personally although the tree huggers amongst you might get a tad peeved when you see how many rainforests have to be cut down in order to send the 387 million red letters to all of those people who haven't kept up the repayments on the 27p mortgages they took out on their coffee plantations in 1962.

Still, they should have read the small print.

[BatChainPuller]

where are you that small disaffected communist lone shooter

 

I just can't get the time off work, and then theres all the grief from the missus : "I swear you love that sniper's rifle more than you love me etc etc"

[chorlton]

"when we talk of the debt what are we talking about here. Is it loans, businesses or just all interest."

 

I think either BCP or Cochaer advocated a country by country look at debt and i agree. The reason being the nature of the debt. Some countries have been truly fucked over by the west, in this country money lenders such as banks have to be responsible, in cases where they haven't then the debt can be cancelled as its the banks fault, i think this should be the case with 3rd world debt. Countries like America (and ourselves to a lesser degree) gave certain 3rd world countries weapons for free in the 70s thus enabling military coups, in order to stay in power they needed more firepower, and this time they had to pay, more money was taken out of the economy causing more disatisfaction and unrest, therefore more military force was required, more borrowing etc.

 

And it doesn't stop there, when america spent more than it should on its own military program guess where they got more money from? They increased the interest on the debt and thus the situation got worse for the countries who owed America money without doing anything.

 

Things have got to a stage where all they can do is pay the interest.

 

Obviously its not only America, but due to their sheer size they are the biggest culprits and also the ones least likely to sign up to this.

 

They will argue it would cost them a lot more, but they avoid mentioning there size then as per head capita it would probably be the same as all the other western countries.

 

anyway theres my 2p's worth.

[Guest Gazmo25]

I personally would like to see a commitment from all nations who can to solve this problem. Part of the problem as I see it is that the leaders of most of these countries are so corrupt that what is to say that the same situation won't occur in the future. I'm very hopeful that something can be sorted out at the G8 conference and from a socialist point of view it is good to see Labour doing something that its core supporters would expect of it.

[Hermes]

I personally would like to see a commitment from all nations who can to solve this problem.

 

Agreed. Starting with the African nations.

[Kopite]

Maybe they should start be sorting out the poverty in the west perhaps?

 

All that will happen is the debt gets cancelled and another Mugabe buys a fleet of cars for his mates and mistresses.

[gordon bennett]

Maybe they should start be sorting out the poverty in the west perhaps?

 

All that will happen is the debt gets cancelled and another Mugabe buys a fleet of cars for his mates and mistresses.

 

Apologies to those of you who have actually read the posts, but there are clearly a number who haven't :wallbutt: . So let's repeat it again:

 

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MUGABE.

 

We are talking about those countries who ARE trying to do something for their people :yes: . They can't because they're shelling out billions to repay debt. When a Third World government has shown it's trying to do the business, it deserves the chance to do it without a massive debt handicap. Give them a break!

[Stu Monty]

Like Robert Mugabe? Living in a muli-million pound house while his people starve due to his policies.

 

 

What about all the other enslaved nations then Hermes?

 

To reference Zimbabwe on a discussion about third world debt and poverty is just showing your ignorance on the issue.

[Hermes]

What about all the other enslaved nations then Hermes?

 

To reference Zimbabwe on a discussion about third world debt and poverty is just showing your ignorance on the issue.

 

The reason most of Africa is living in poverty is because almost every one of them at one time or another over the last 100 years has been ruled by a Robert Mugabe figure. Do you honestly believe that if the Western countries had not got involved in Africa at all then poverty wouldn't exist there?

 

You talk of ignorance Stu, take a look in the mirror.

[Paul]

The reason most of Africa is living in poverty is because almost every one of them at one time or another over the last 100 years has been ruled by a Robert Mugabe figure. Do you honestly believe that if the Western countries had not got involved in Africa at all then poverty wouldn't exist there?

 

You talk of ignorance Stu, take a look in the mirror.

Africa is fucked because of Western involvement. We all steamed in there arbitrarily imposing borders and telling various tribes to get along with each other while we robbed them of their resources - both human and other. We then fucked off and left them to deal with the mess once it all began to get a little too dicey for our liking.

 

Africa is the birthplace of civilisation. Of course the continent would have had its problems (including poverty) without us, but I doubt very much that it'd be in the mess it's in now if we'd never gone there.

[Stu Monty]

The reason most of Africa is living in poverty is because almost every one of them at one time or another over the last 100 years has been ruled by a Robert Mugabe figure. Do you honestly believe that if the Western countries had not got involved in Africa at all then poverty wouldn't exist there?

 

You talk of ignorance Stu, take a look in the mirror.

 

 

And so the countries that will be getting aid will have to prove certain levels of sound governance. Dopes that aleviate your fear that in stoping children starving we might end up giving a few corrupt men a merc or two?

 

I'm guessing that what Africa needs is moral bastions of democracy like Nixon, Yeltsin, Bush, Bush and Thatcher yeah? That'll sort them out?

 

Do you really honestly believe that we wait until they get thier house in order before we help? Are you also naive enough to not be aware that the powers in the west promote these shit leaders who will happily send in thier militay to murder whole townships if they don't fuck off and let BP mine thier land? Who will keep quiet like good boys and not make too much noise about the white west righting a few of the wrongs from the last century.

 

As soon as an african pm starts leading properly you can bet your life that some rebels will find cheap weapons to depose him...not that the CIA would be involved of course. Down he goes and and down go those terrible pro-africa anti-US trade barriers to national industries that he tried to impose.

 

For an example see Argentina. You go down and they kick you in the head till you stop moving.

 

I am many things, ignorant to the trade justice movement, which I support with cash every month, I am not Dave.

[Hermes]

Africa is fucked because of Western involvement. We all steamed in there arbitrarily imposing borders and telling various tribes to get along with each other while we robbed them of their resources - both human and other. We then fucked off and left them to deal with the mess once it all began to get a little too dicey for our liking.

 

Africa is the birthplace of civilisation. Of course the continent would have had its problems (including poverty) without us, but I doubt very much that it'd be in the mess it's in now if we'd never gone there.

 

This debt that needs wiping out, who do you think they owe it to?

 

Oh yes, the West. Along with the debt, $78billion was given in aid last year by the western countries. Better of without the West?

[Stu Monty]

This debt that needs wiping out, who do you think they owe it to?

 

Oh yes, the West. Along with the debt, $78billion was given in aid last year by the western countries. Better of without the West?

 

How much do you think they took out of the continent for that money?

 

The west are loan sharks, putting up the interest for people that will never afford it.

 

And where would Africa be now if it hadn't been for the help they got from the west sending all those ships over to give those africans homes in the west eh?

[Hermes]

And where would Africa be now if it hadn't been for the help they got from the west sending all those ships over to give those africans homes in the west eh?

 

That was over a hundred years ago FFS. Are you telling me that slavery in the 19th century is responsible for African poverty in the 21st century?

[chorlton]

They are exploited to fuck. And those in power are those the west can deal with, regardless of how they behave, we still have dealing with Mugabe FFs.

[Stu Monty]

That was over a hundred years ago FFS. Are you telling me that slavery in the 19th century is responsible for African poverty in the 21st century?

 

 

I was ridiculing your attitude to the situation, that it's mostly self-inflicted.

 

Would you care to address any of the other points that I raised?