FIFA Confederations Cup

[Lucky Pierre]

Crouchie - serious question. (Same goes to all forumites from the US)

 

The USA has a population of 300-odd million, right?

Approx. 150M of them would be male?

Approx. 70-80M are teenagers?

The USA are all absolutely bonkers about their sports? NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB etc.

 

So, if whoever's in charge of footie in the US really put their minds to it, and put money towards it etc, I am under the impression that somewhere in them tens of millions of teens are 23 really, really good footballers. So in 9 years time, come England 2018, or wherever the WC2018 is held, these 12-20 year olds will be between 21 and 29, so surely you could win it?

[Red Phoenix]

I think they'll carry on getting better at it, and wouldn't be surprised if they're the next version of us, with ridiculous wages/transfer fees, etc. That could take decades though, if it happens at all.

 

Xabi's goal against SA was amazing too, had some crazy curl on it that.

[CrouchieBoy]

Crouchie - serious question. (Same goes to all forumites from the US)

 

The USA has a population of 300-odd million, right?

Approx. 150M of them would be male?

Approx. 70-80M are teenagers?

The USA are all absolutely bonkers about their sports? NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB etc.

 

So, if whoever's in charge of footie in the US really put their minds to it, and put money towards it etc, I am under the impression that somewhere in them tens of millions of teens are 23 really, really good footballers. So in 9 years time, come England 2018, or wherever the WC2018 is held, these 12-20 year olds will be between 21 and 29, so surely you could win it?

 

To be honest mate, if you look at the starting 11 we threw out there yesterday, there are three players under 23 that are a product of the youth set up here in the states. Of the three major youth football associations here, there are over 17m youths playing the game. It is far and away our most popular youth sport.

 

I think once these yyoungsters see there is a decent chance to make money, you'll see even more growth of the game. This may take a decade like you mention and it would please me greatly. If i'm not mistaken, there are only 2 or 3 full time academies (traveling at the moment so not 100% certain). More full time opportunities for young kids to get in the game would also do wonders.

[SpeedyG]

To be honest mate, if you look at the starting 11 we threw out there yesterday, there are three players under 23 that are a product of the youth set up here in the states. Of the three major youth football associations here, there are over 17m youths playing the game. It is far and away our most popular youth sport.

 

I think once these yyoungsters see there is a decent chance to make money, you'll see even more growth of the game. This may take a decade like you mention and it would please me greatly. If i'm not mistaken, there are only 2 or 3 full time academies (traveling at the moment so not 100% certain). More full time opportunities for young kids to get in the game would also do wonders.

 

There's no money in it though is there? Aren't most players on something like 40K a year?

[CrouchieBoy]

There's no money in it though is there? Aren't most players on something like 40K a year?

 

well the wage structure is such that one player per team can earn a huge wage and the other wages are far less.

 

For example Freddie Ljungberg is on just over $1m a year while our starting center backs are on $37k & $150k respectively

 

The avg wage of the Sounders is $147k with just over $34k being the lowest.

 

The MLS also subsidizes a lot of the wages. If clubs were able to pay contracts without any restrictions, you would see a much higher wage cap, and more players coming to America. I imagine that time is not to far off

[Jokerman]

How does the college system work there in relation to other sports and how does it work with football? I know the college system is very strong in other sports, but I'm not sure how strong it is in football. It could be that this is a hindrance for the development of younger players at a crucial stage of their development, whilst players in England, Brazil, France, Spain etc. have the opportunity to play at a very high competitive level by their late teens at the most crucial time in their development, American players maybe have to wait, but, like I say I'm not sure what the system exactly is there and how it works?

[SpeedyG]

well the wage structure is such that one player per team can earn a huge wage and the other wages are far less.

 

For example Freddie Ljungberg is on just over $1m a year while our starting center backs are on $37k & $150k respectively

 

The avg wage of the Sounders is $147k with just over $34k being the lowest.

 

The MLS also subsidizes a lot of the wages. If clubs were able to pay contracts without any restrictions, you would see a much higher wage cap, and more players coming to America. I imagine that time is not to far off

 

See that's a problem. My niece represented the state (Florida) at football (soccer) but ended up going to university on a volleyball scholarship! So while there is lot's of engagement at the lower end will it flow through or are the differences in rewards of american football etc going to divert all the talent away?

[CrouchieBoy]

How does the college system work there in relation to other sports and how does it work with football? I know the college system is very strong in other sports, but I'm not sure how strong it is in football. It could be that this is a hindrance for the development of younger players at a crucial stage of their development, whilst players in England, Brazil, France, Spain etc. have the opportunity to play at a very high competitive level by their late teens at the most crucial time in their development, American players maybe have to wait, but, like I say I'm not sure what the system exactly is there and how it works?

 

I think parts of this contribute to holding US football back. The best youth players (for the most part) wont play HS football as it is seen as far less skilled/visable. Many players take the club route which is more cost prohibitive but their seen by far more people. Then when they get to college, their development for the most part doesn't go anywhere.

 

I know here in Washington, there are several British ex-pats coaching youth football and we have a pretty strong club program here in the state. Couldn't tell you about the rest of the country though.

 

In my opinion, the MLS needs to work with the US Soccer Federation and get youth academies sanctioned throughout the country. This system would add more time to develop youngsters. The one problem with this is that I am not sure many parents would be willing to send their children full time to an academy.

[CrouchieBoy]

See that's a problem. My niece represented the state (Florida) at football (soccer) but ended up going to university on a volleyball scholarship! So while there is lot's of engagement at the lower end will it flow through or are the differences in rewards of american football etc going to divert all the talent away?

 

I hope it does mate! In my opinion the kids really don't have much of an option on how they can develop their game. Its club football and pray you get a good coach in my opinion.

 

I know that there are several individuals within the US footy scene that are trying to get academies (or something like that) started.

 

If I had it my way, you'd have all the Soccer associations working with the national federation working together (which they do albeit rather loosely) to get a development standard.

 

They would only need to look at Europe to get a model to move on

[Guest ShoePiss]

They're still talking about the game on ESPN right now by the way...as for MLS or US 'soccer' being able to compete with European top flight clubs I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

 

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned this as a concern and used the likes of the LA Lakers as an example, I'm pretty sure a very large slice of the Lakers revenue comes from TV. Due to the format of Football it just isn't practical for commercial TV here, we just don't have the stoppages that American sports have designed in specifically for TV commercials. The idea is that they have a captive audience and with Football they only have 15 minutes at half time and then people switch off.

[Torvald Utne]

Didn't stop ITV going to adverts during F1 races.

 

(I realise that F1 is boring as fuck but still...)

 

oooh....that's out for a goal kick....now a word from our sponsors....wouldn't miss shit.

 

ooooh....ronaldo is rolling on the floor again....let's go to ads.

[Jokerman]

I think parts of this contribute to holding US football back. The best youth players (for the most part) wont play HS football as it is seen as far less skilled/visable. Many players take the club route which is more cost prohibitive but their seen by far more people. Then when they get to college, their development for the most part doesn't go anywhere.

 

I know here in Washington, there are several British ex-pats coaching youth football and we have a pretty strong club program here in the state. Couldn't tell you about the rest of the country though.

 

In my opinion, the MLS needs to work with the US Soccer Federation and get youth academies sanctioned throughout the country. This system would add more time to develop youngsters. The one problem with this is that I am not sure many parents would be willing to send their children full time to an academy.

 

I think it's an area they definitely need to look at, because I'm sure there are players whose careers have not developed as they should because they have been held back at the stage where players in other countries are developing their talents significantly.

[Unrighteous]

I was once told by a teacher that Soccer is actually originally an english term. But I'm not sure if thats true or not, I'm sure someone will look it up and put us all out of our misery.

 

I hope it does mate! In my opinion the kids really don't have much of an option on how they can develop their game. Its club football and pray you get a good coach in my opinion.

 

I know that there are several individuals within the US footy scene that are trying to get academies (or something like that) started.

 

If I had it my way, you'd have all the Soccer associations working with the national federation working together (which they do albeit rather loosely) to get a development standard.

 

They would only need to look at Europe to get a model to move on

 

Big time. I remember reading an article when I went to Arizona last december and it was banging on about how youth football is getting very popular, and expensive, and its big business and that its growing very fast.

[Jokerman]

Big time. I remember reading an article when I went to Arizona last december and it was banging on about how youth football is getting very popular, and expensive, and its big business and that its growing very fast.

 

A mate of mine who lives in New York played youth football there and had to pay fees of around $900, I think a season. Just for regular Junior league type football.

[isr]

I think you underestimate the future of the game here if im honest. I think that once the MLS can get out of their own way, make the league sustain its self, you will see more money poured into the game.

 

Don't agree with you here. The way MLS is structured, its almost setup to ensure that football in the US remains backwards. Its setup purely as a revenue-generating exercise for franchises, rather than as a competitive league for individual clubs to fight it out.

 

MLS almost has a mini-draft, deciding which young players goes where. And pays a big chunk (all?) of player salaries. Essentially meaning that MLS teams really just use what they are given, with little incentive to go out and find new talent, and build something. Why bother - the MLS will just supply their team for next year (and next, and next ...)

 

99.9% of all games in the "regular season" (ugh, hate that term) are completely meaningless. Just an exercise in generating revenues. Sure, the playoffs mean something, but by then you're playing with guys who have essentially been playing Sunday afternoon kickabout for no stakes for most of the year. In other words, the competitive drive really isn't there, and is never fostered.

 

Football is a simple game. It doesn't need tons of money to generate decent footballers, and a thriving local scene. It never did, or else football would never have gained the foothold it did throughout the world. All it really needs are:

- some basic talent

- a desire for hard work

- a forum which promotes competitiveness

 

Then, no matter what the financial or population disadvantages, you'll rise.

 

The Americans have completly missed the point of it all, by focusing on a franchise-dominated league, with a baseball-like meaningless fixture pileup, and an incentive-killing player-draft structure.

 

I don't buy the whole "oh, look at the plucky underdog" bollocks. Underdogs my arse. Even if it remains a minority sport, thats a minority out of a huge population. Millions of participants and fans, and tens of millions of $$$ (mostly on "soccer camps" for overfed, undertalented, kids of soccer moms). Way more than your mid-ranking South American or African nation can ever hope to have.

 

They achieve more.

[OmarVizquel]

It's a minority sport in the US and will always remain that way, at least for the foreseeable future. The world doesn't need the US to become a football/soccer power, although if by some miracle that happened it would hardly be the disaster that some people on here seem to predict. The game would benefit from new and exciting players. Period.

[Unrighteous]

A mate of mine who lives in New York played youth football there and had to pay fees of around $900, I think a season. Just for regular Junior league type football.

 

This article was talking about $10,000+ per year 'tuition' to these things.

[theghost]

That's what Montreal fans must have been saying after tonights game, note the 4 slices of wood.

 

 

Will we be seeing you on Wednesday?

[fin-bat]

I love Jesus.

[Faustus]

Hasn't football been the most widely played sport at youth levels in America for quite some time now? That would probably suggest that the problem lies somewhere in between. I don't know too much about the youth set-ups and grass roots football in America, but I read a piece in FourFourTwo a while back and somebody said that a lot of people see football as the perfect sport for kids to play to introduce them to competitiveness and team ethic and then engage them in 'their' sports such as basketball, baseball and NFL football as they get older.

 

Not sure if that's the case or not, but I thought it was an interesting point.

[Mrmojo]

There's probably a lack of football culture in the US. The youth in America are much less exposed to real quality football on TV, or to go to watch. Added to the fact that most of their best talents ply their trade abroad, the kids end up with limited role-models, and are less inclined to follow football when they are older. You could probably make an analogous comparison with other sports, for example, baseball, which is largely ignored in Britain. There surely could be many talented British baseball players, but there is no culture to nurture them in.

[CrouchieBoy]

Don't agree with you here. The way MLS is structured, its almost setup to ensure that football in the US remains backwards. Its setup purely as a revenue-generating exercise for franchises, rather than as a competitive league for individual clubs to fight it out.

 

MLS almost has a mini-draft, deciding which young players goes where. And pays a big chunk (all?) of player salaries. Essentially meaning that MLS teams really just use what they are given, with little incentive to go out and find new talent, and build something. Why bother - the MLS will just supply their team for next year (and next, and next ...)

 

99.9% of all games in the "regular season" (ugh, hate that term) are completely meaningless. Just an exercise in generating revenues. Sure, the playoffs mean something, but by then you're playing with guys who have essentially been playing Sunday afternoon kickabout for no stakes for most of the year. In other words, the competitive drive really isn't there, and is never fostered.

 

Football is a simple game. It doesn't need tons of money to generate decent footballers, and a thriving local scene. It never did, or else football would never have gained the foothold it did throughout the world. All it really needs are:

- some basic talent

- a desire for hard work

- a forum which promotes competitiveness

 

Then, no matter what the financial or population disadvantages, you'll rise.

 

The Americans have completly missed the point of it all, by focusing on a franchise-dominated league, with a baseball-like meaningless fixture pileup, and an incentive-killing player-draft structure.

 

I don't buy the whole "oh, look at the plucky underdog" bollocks. Underdogs my arse. Even if it remains a minority sport, thats a minority out of a huge population. Millions of participants and fans, and tens of millions of $$$ (mostly on "soccer camps" for overfed, undertalented, kids of soccer moms). Way more than your mid-ranking South American or African nation can ever hope to have.

 

They achieve more.

 

Without meaning to come across as argumentative, you have completely misread what I was trying to get across. The reason I said the MLS needs to stop getting in its own way is precisely what your bolded paragraphs write.

 

Its quite clear that you have your own personal feelings towards the US and its sporting system so there really isn't any point to further the debate with you.

 

I will take you to task on that last bit as it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Firstly, the reason we are deemed "underdogs" may have something to do with the fact that the talent we play against IS BETTER! Much the same that South Africa or Iraq or Madagascar ffs would be an underdog against most of the world.

 

Your bit about undertalented kids is quite laughable to be fair. This country has, and will continue to put out some of the best athletes in the world, it really comes down to coaching imo. Which (in case you missed it) was why I have advocated that all the associations in this country come together and start producing proper footballers. This will happen in time. I am certain of it.

[OmarVizquel]

CrouchieBoy, I agree with a lot of what you say. Although the US has certainly produced footballers who proved their worth on the world and PL-club stage....Brian McBride and Brad Friedel come to mind. They were/are proper footballers in any sense of the word.

 

My belief (and maybe you can agree with me Crouchie), is that the main difference between most US footballers and athletes who grow up playing American sports is confidence and mindset. Ask any American who the best athletes were at their high schools (when kids are 14-18 years old), and 999 times out of 1,000 they will name guys who played skill positions in American football, basketball, or baseball. These guys were the top-notch athletes, had the run of the school, were worshipped by the local and state media, and probably got all the girls. Footballers/soccer players -- no matter who gifted and successful -- are almost always considered niche or minority athletes.

 

My former high school, for example, won 3 state championships and 1 national title in football/soccer. But would I consider any of the great players on those teams the best athletes at the school, in terms of natural athletic ability as opposed to technique and training? Absolutely not. The best natural athletes I knew from my high school went on to play professional baseball (2 were drafted by pro teams), professional American football (1 is currently a wide receiver for Indianapolis, and several more start for NFL teams), and college basketball. None of the footballers are still playing.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's difficult for people from football-mad countries like England, where footballers are considered the #1 priority from an early age, to understand how a Robbie Fowler would have been considered a talented but ultimately secondary athlete in school. Maybe that does something to a young person's confidence that affects their later success in ways we can't really gauge.

[CrouchieBoy]

I do agree with a lot of that and from my experience, the best "footballers" I grew up with didn't even play for our High School team. They were all on select teams, ODP teams etc. I totally agree that the best athletes in HS sports generally do not play Soccer.

 

I can understand why it is hard for foreigners to understand the sporting system in the US as its incredibly convoluted and unlike anything they are used to. I was the exact same when I started to understand the English football set up.

 

Don't want to beat a dead horse ala our favorite Rasher, but the USA needs to reach out to those athletes that do want to focus on football. Only then will we see any marked improvement

[SpeedyG]

CrouchieBoy, I agree with a lot of what you say. Although the US has certainly produced footballers who proved their worth on the world and PL-club stage....Brian McBride and Brad Friedel come to mind. They were/are proper footballers in any sense of the word.

 

My belief (and maybe you can agree with me Crouchie), is that the main difference between most US footballers and athletes who grow up playing American sports is confidence and mindset. Ask any American who the best athletes were at their high schools (when kids are 14-18 years old), and 999 times out of 1,000 they will name guys who played skill positions in American football, basketball, or baseball. These guys were the top-notch athletes, had the run of the school, were worshipped by the local and state media, and probably got all the girls. Footballers/soccer players -- no matter who gifted and successful -- are almost always considered niche or minority athletes.

 

My former high school, for example, won 3 state championships and 1 national title in football/soccer. But would I consider any of the great players on those teams the best athletes at the school, in terms of natural athletic ability as opposed to technique and training? Absolutely not. The best natural athletes I knew from my high school went on to play professional baseball (2 were drafted by pro teams), professional American football (1 is currently a wide receiver for Indianapolis, and several more start for NFL teams), and college basketball. None of the footballers are still playing.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's difficult for people from football-mad countries like England, where footballers are considered the #1 priority from an early age, to understand how a Robbie Fowler would have been considered a talented but ultimately secondary athlete in school. Maybe that does something to a young person's confidence that affects their later success in ways we can't really gauge.

 

I lived around the corner from Duante Culpepper when he was at UCF. The buzz around that guy was unfuckingbelieveable. He was worshipped, it was sickening actually.