PODCAST: West Ham 2 Liverpool 2 - Match Reaction

Good points from Paul about the leadership above Klopp. Shocking really.

Enjoyed that. Very funny in parts considering how down we all are. Unfortunately, Salah is the story now.

Excellent listen once again - well done to all.  Love it, Paul!

Salah was out of order, and it is right that he is castigated.  Interesting that his stats were held up against Luis' and seen to fall short.  But let's not forget that Luis acted in a much worse way than Mo.

I am in the sell camp (though I just can't see it happening).  But if he does go, I hope he is rightly held in the highest regard, especially when his behaviour is measured against people like Suarez who is still majorly loved by parts of this community!

But yes, thanks again - I do like the different viewpoints.  Good squad rotation, Dave!

Agreed with much that was said about Klopp's announcement timing, his loss of authority, and Salah's lack of respect. 

But I think - developing the last point - that more should be made of Salah's lack of gratitude. He owes Klopp a massive amount for transforming him into a global star and the club's highest paid player ever.

The player who arrived at Anfield was no more than a decent Serie A forward who was seen to have flopped in England previously. It was as part of Klopp's system, alongside Klopp's other signings, that Salah became the player he became - and frankly no longer is.

Did Klopp really turn Salah world class? Or would it have happened anyway? 

If he takes credit for making him world class, does he take responsibility for his downturn in form? Playing him miles away from goal and stuck on the wing the last two years seems strange to me. Plus he moved Trent and lost that dynamic on the right hand side.

47 minutes ago, johnsusername said:

Did Klopp really turn Salah world class? Or would it have happened anyway? 

 

If he takes credit for making him world class, does he take responsibility for his downturn in form? Playing him miles away from goal and stuck on the wing the last two years seems strange to me. Plus he moved Trent and lost that dynamic on the right hand side.

 

I think a lot of player development at the elite level, comes from the framework of the team allowing you to shine.

So in that sense, Klopp was definitely a huge factor in Mo becoming what he did. He had an awful lot to thank him for but the reality of the situation is that when it came to the crunch, at the end of the season, like the other forward players he has disappeared and then he’s made a cunt of himself.

A horrible way for it all to end.

2 hours ago, johnsusername said:

Did Klopp really turn Salah world class? Or would it have happened anyway? 

 

If he takes credit for making him world class, does he take responsibility for his downturn in form? Playing him miles away from goal and stuck on the wing the last two years seems strange to me. Plus he moved Trent and lost that dynamic on the right hand side.

 

I think context is huge in career progression. Klopp is a major component of the context in which Salah flourished. There's no guarantee he'd have flourished to the same degree elsewhere. It didn't happen at all under Mourinho at Chelsea, for example.

I agree that some of Klopp's more recent positional and tactical changes have had a detrimental effect, by the way. 

That Areola, he’s a bit of a tit …

Good pod. I agree about the tactics, I'm not sure what we're trying to do or what our identity is. And it was the same last season. Would it be the same next season? Salah stuck on the wing miles from the goal, Trent coming inside leaving acres behind him, the midfield being both overstocked and anaemic at the same time?

And as was said - with a few different refereeing decisions we might have been top by a few points. If some of those bad shots had gone in....

It's been a strange season.

I think everyone would have taken a top 4 finish and a cup. But the league was there to be won. 

I also agree that some of our players wouldn't look out of place playing for the likes of west ham. I think we need an injection of quality in the summer - although, I actually think globally there is a real lack of quality, adaptable footballers out there. 

I reckon having seen the latest footage, that Klopp didn't like Salah half ignoring him when he was about to come on. He waited for a minute and then said "This will be your last game for Liverpool".

I've found these last few pods very cathartic. I never used to listen to the pods when we'd lost, but they're actually more valuable than the ones when we win.

Waiting for Dave's match report.

Probably my favourite pod yet lads. Great stuff.

I make that 7,255 'Fuck' and 'Fuck offs' by Paul in this episode. A new TLW podcast record?

In all seriousness - Salah can indeed fuck off. As Paul said, the touchline row with Klopp was bad enough but also, just about, understandable. The same cannot be said about his "fire" comment in the mixed zone. That was calculated and cowardly and, without a suitable apology, something that should spell the end of Mo's time at the club. He's a legend, but to behave like that towards an even greater legend - or indeed anyone who is in charge of him at the time - is unacceptable, especially given the piss-poor displays he has delivered in recent weeks, a time when we needed our main man - and biggest earner - to step up. Instead he's gone into hiding, walked when he should've sprinted, and on Saturday showed a level of petulance that says a lot about his character, namely that he can be incredibly selfish and disloyal and go into full self-preservation mode when the chips are down. Well, if that's the case, you can well and truly do one to Saudi, Mo.

As the boys outlined, however, that could prove easier said than done. I too think he'll be here next season, which could prove a big headache for Slot - a big ego in serious, sharp decline. I'm getting massive Cristiano Ronaldo vibes ...

Speaking of the soon-to-be-announced new manager - like Stu, there's a part of me that is excited about a change in the dugout and how it changes the way we play. I adore Klopp and his years as our manager have been the best of my many decades following the Reds, but I've reached a point where I'm done seeing the team blow up under him, whether that be through multiple injuries, exhaustion or system failure. They're all interlinked factors and the fundamental issue with Klopp's style of football is that when it goes well it goes really, really well but when it goes badly it goes really, really badly, as we've seen this season. If feels like we're at a stage where Jurgen's heavy metal football is simply no longer possible, certainly not with the squad we have currently, and we need more control in games - to ease the stress on the players and make us more secure defensively. It won't be as thrilling as what we saw between 2017-2020 but that doesn't mean it can't be as successful in its own way.

Given Slot plays a similar style to Klopp, that may well not be what we get with him, so a case again, it seems, of buckle up and enjoy the ride. (*Puffs out cheeks and goes for a lie down*) 

I calmed down considerably about Mo after a bit of time. I was emotional about the shit show we’re in and had had a couple of bevvies too. That footage came to us as we were recording and I was watching it while we were “on air”. 
 

My view now is broadly the same as Dave has outlined in the match report. It’s not great and needs sorting, but it’s more saddening than anything else. I just feel disappointed about everything to do with the club after what had been a great season prior to the FA defeat to The Mancs. 

That's fair enough Paul. Personally, I'm still fuming with Mo. That's almost certainly in part due to the oddly cold way I've felt about him ever since he joined us in 2017 - never loved him as much as I loved Sadio or Bobby and not 100% sure why. Think it may be because I detected the arrogance we saw on Saturday in him much earlier on. Saying that, I will be forever thankful for all the incredible moments, individually and collectively, he's given us during the past seven years, and in that regards it's indeed sad how things have turned out for Mo season. He may come back fitter, stronger, sharper next season but I doubt it - looks distinctly like a player in decline to me and, for that reason, I'd defo cash in on him in the summer if the right offer came along. Whether or not it does, and he decides to go the back of it, remains to be seen. As said - my sense is he'll still be with us next season.

And yes, the entire season is now one of huge disappointment, regret and sadness. It definitely started with that cup defeat at Old Trafford and, for me, took a distinct and decisive turn for the worse after the 2-2 there in the league a few weeks later. That broke the players, and almost certainly, the manager too. Gutted.  

As said, Chris - my lack of love for Mo is odd because, as you say, he's a brilliant athlete and almost certainly a brilliant person, too. And, in general, I have no issue with footballers being arrogant - they absolutely need to be, especially at the top level. But there's always been something about Mo that's kept me at arms length to him from an affection-POV, and it feels related to what happened on Saturday and how annoyed I still am about it. Probably says more about me than Mo, tbh. 

I'm also very much the most arrogant person in my house, which is saying something given my inability to not spill crumbs down the side of the sofa when I'm having my dinner in front of the telly. 

I don't think Mo is arrogant, especially not considering the status he has and the career he's had. Most people would be way more arrogant than he is given the circumstances.

He can be selfish though, occasionally (albeit very rarely) to the detriment of the team but mostly it's stuff we just laugh off. Him not giving up pens, not passing to better placed team-mates or seeing his arse when he's subbed etc

Bobby's book is a bit of an eye opener on the selfishness, with the whole Sadio vs Mo stuff, but the selfishness and obsession with individual records has benefitted us as far more than it's ever hurt us as it's driven him on to the heights he's reached.

Klopp is in no way better than Paisley, I'm not having that at all. 

Paisley would have run rings round Guardiola. 

Just now, johnsusername said:

Klopp is in no way better than Paisley, I'm not having that at all. 

 

Paisley would have run rings round Guardiola. 

You can't compare eras like that though as the game is unrecognisable now to what it was when Bob was hoovering up trophies. The players who played then all talk about how there was virtually no tactical instructions. When Souness signed here he said he played 5 a side in training and then Ronnie Moran told him to "figure it out for himself" when he asked what they wanted him to do on the pitch.

You go up against a Guardiola team with that approach and you'll lose by twenty. What Paisley did worked at the time and he was clearly miles better than any of his peers from that era. There's just so much more to it these days so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Paisley never came up against a team getting 90 odd points every season and spending unlimited amounts of money. Klopp came up against that and if he'd had a level playing field with officials he'd have beaten City to more titles than just the one he managed.

Put it this way, Klopp's teams would have absolutely destroyed any of our great sides from the past because the game has moved on so much in terms of tactics, and that's before we even get onto fitness, speed etc

Great Pod lads. Stu made a great point on tactics and I think it's a factor in Klopps current state. I reckon he's grown to hate the football we play, he's almost been forced to adjust by the shear number of games we play. The team we have now, the way we play, it's unrecognisable to what a Klopp team looked like pre-Thiago.

On the subject of which games the referees get and which they don’t, I saw this list on Twitter. Apparently it came from one of the newspapers. 
 

So there is not a single official who supports Manchester United (or City for that matter). Not one, even though loads are from Manchester / Lancashire.

But there's half a dozen not allowed near Liverpool or Everton.

Seems legit.

No note next to Mr Oliver's name then...

1 hour ago, dave u said:

So there is not a single official who supports Manchester United (or City for that matter). Not one, even though loads are from Manchester / Lancashire.

 

But there's half a dozen not allowed near Liverpool or Everton.

 

Seems legit.

The Jarred Gillett one is awesome. Seems he can't ref us or the shite because he works for the University of Liverpool.

He's an Aussie and self confessed Liverpool fan.