There is nothing wrong with our midfield

[Pureblood]

Lucky. It's a nightmare searching your account from last time you had a player flip out. I wouldn't want the trouble of digging up these ones when this account is deleted.

 

That's all very enlightening but can you tell me where I said that Lucas and Gerrard had to play as a double pivot in every game, ta. 

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

That's all very enlightening but can you tell me where I said that Lucas and Gerrard had to play as a double pivot in every game, ta.

Just as soon as you show me where I said you did, I'll get right on it.

[Pureblood]

Just as soon as you show me where I said you did, I'll get right on it.

 

I'm paraphrasing but there are several posts over the latter part of this thread where you imply that's what I wanted when I don't recall saying any such thing.

 

When I started this thread i was talking more in terms of personnel than systems.  Hence my reply that I would play Hendo, Lucas and Gerrard in every game when fit. I don't recall saying anything about which positions they should be deployed in, although I'm honest enough to admit that I wanted Lucas as the out and out DM. 

 

It's hard for me to predict which system Rodgers will play from one game to the next (I'm sure I'm not alone there).  To reiterate, the thread was started more as a defence of the players from undue criticism rather than as an endorsement of the system/shape of the team, which can change from one game to the next (and during games - flipping the triangle and all that).  

[Pureblood]

And that is how I took TKs comments at the time. In fact I just went back and looked at the first page, and his repsponse to someone saying we need to buy someone else was essentially why buy someone when we have Allen, I presume that was because he includes him as part of our midfield.

 

Spot on, Woolster - i was happy with the players and didn't think we needed any new ones.  In terms of a top four place that has been proven to be correct.  Whether it will be enough for the title... we will find out soon.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

How come?

 

In mid November we were 2 points behind Arsenal at the top and 4 points ahead of City.

 

We need to add some quality in midfield though, Vidal would be nice.

Sorry, I totally missed that reply to me. I think you're missing the point with that reply, to be honest. We weren't there because of how well our midfield was doing, we were doing well because of how well our attack has been performing. Just check out some of the comments from around that time, some were even referencing this thread for amusement before we changed it.

 

EDIT: I stopped at 50 quotes. I briefly went through a few old threads, clicking 'multi quote' on the ones that spoke about the midfield. You can't quote anywhere near that many, so here are a few that give a clear indication of what people thought about our midfield being fine at the time, regardless of us being in the top four.

 

 

 

 

Awful midfield - they looked like they didn't know what they were doing or running in treacle.

 

The game showed what we knew all along. The central midfield is nowhere good enough.

 

The midfield seems to be very one paced and very square as far to often they sit off and one pass completely cuts them out the game.

 

From the Independent

 

The post-match inquest on this flashpoint obscured Liverpool’s deeper cause for concern – the sight of Everton comfortably breezing through their midfield to create so many opportunities that it took half a dozen outstanding saves from Simon Mignolet to save them.

A midfield 3 of Gerrard, Henderson and Lucas just doesn't work. At all. It will never work. It cannot be any part of the future if we want to progress. Today should be the last time it is ever seen on a team sheet.[...]

 

Fucking Hull. Tom Huddlestone, Jake Livermore and David Meyler. Fuck the fuck off. When average shite makes you look like a cunt - its game over.

 

 

The midfield is fucking awful... I think most of us agree on that.

It's without doubt the worst midfield partnership in the league at the minute and neither offer much going forward or defensively as average midfielders seem to waltz by them with ease.

 

Didn't you read there was nothing wrong with our midfield?

I'm waiting for TK421's stream of shite about our midfield. Any moment now.

 

 

 

 

There are, quite literally, hundreds of these quotes, some even more damning. I just don't want to put them all in different posts. If you follow the links and read back through, November was a month where people were very much questioning out midfield. It went right through until December ended and we then switched it about and we're all happy as Larry.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I'm paraphrasing

A'right, cool.

 

but there are several posts over the latter part of this thread where you imply that's what I wanted when I don't recall saying any such thing.

 

When I started this thread i was talking more in terms of personnel than systems.  Hence my reply that I would play Hendo, Lucas and Gerrard in every game when fit. I don't recall saying anything about which positions they should be deployed in, although I'm honest enough to admit that I wanted Lucas as the out and out DM. 

 

It's hard for me to predict which system Rodgers will play from one game to the next (I'm sure I'm not alone there).  To reiterate, the thread was started more as a defence of the players from undue criticism rather than as an endorsement of the system/shape of the team, which can change from one game to the next (and during games - flipping the triangle and all that).

TK, I've got no problem with anything you've said about Lucas, anything you said about the midfield, anything you said about wanting Lucas and Gerrard playing, or any of that stuff. I have an issue with you bumping threads and trying to make make a cunt of people who quite obviously saw the issue with the midfield. If you disagree with me on whether Lucas should play or not, you'll get no issue from me. Surely you can see saying 'wrong' to stuff like 'I want this player or that player' is going to get people's back up when you're saying about the Lucas/Gerrard partnership and how lucas must play for us to win 'n all that. If that's your opinion, you're more than welcome to it. Just know that I'll obviously defend my views if I still hold them.

 

I know we jab at each other, but I also know that we both rep each other in different parts of the site so there's no real seriousness about anything or any real vendetta, certainly not on my part. If you want to bury this issue, do you agree with what I said in September? About Gerrard playing deeper and needing the legs of Allen, Hendo, with Coutinho dropping deeper to help out? Do you at least acknowledge that we have changed around the midfield unit, dropping one of them and changing the formation of those three? If you do agree with those, we're not that far apart. If you want Lucas to come into that midfield, that's fine. I really, really don't. That's fine too. Either way, it's pointless butting heads all the time if that's the only issue here.

[The Woolster]

No, bypass those. Read the passages of text linked. Or just fucking ignore it if it's inconvenient. Seems to work a treat for most on here. Especially when it exposes their view to be bias driven, cockeyed nonsense.

Do you mean the parts quoted where TK says stuff along the lines of how good he thinks Lucas is? That is exactly what I nean by out of context, I'm sure those quotes (I have no clue if they were full posts) were not said in isolation, they were in response to something, so me simply reading misses that context.

 

So TKA saying those things, quite possibly in response to someone 'yanking his chain' does not mean thats what he meant when he started the thread

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Do you mean the parts quoted where TK says stuff along the lines of how good he thinks Lucas is?

No, I mean the stuff where he says what I said which makes my entire point relevant. Look, the midfield had a fuck load wrong with the way it was set-up, at least in my opinion and the opinions of hundreds of people at the time the matches were being played. That has changed, we've switched the way the midfield sets-up, we've changed personnel, and we're doing much better because of it. I don't even see why there's still a debate about this? It's not one of those marginal, opinion based things; these things have happened. If you want to pick up TK's argument, that's fine. I don't see why you would, because it's daft. If you want to pick up something you've said back in November, that's fine too. I've just no idea what it is. Either way, I don't know how anybody can smugly bump themselves saying the midfield - not the midfielders - were fine, then saying how Hendo, Gerrard and Lucas was fine, then think they were right about it. It took a massive change for it to work.

[Pureblood]

There's a debate about it because it's not as cut and dried as you make out. 

[TheHowieLama]

I have a serious problem with Lucas and Gerrard in the same midfield with Lucas as the holding mid.

 

Apparently Rodgers does too.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

There's a debate about it because it's not as cut and dried as you make out.

The results and the midfield performances beg to differ. Night. Day. Had you said 'the midfielders are fine but we're just playing them totally wrongly and we need to drop Lucas' rather than what amounts to 'play Lucas or we lose' and 'the midfield is great', there'd be no debate. You could bump yourself til you went blind.

[stringvest]

The midfield, when Gerrard and Lucas were playing in tandem, was awful. They were both doing half a job, and doing it badly. Now Gerrard is playing where he is, not only is he doing the role better than two of them together could manage previously, he has added the quarterback role that many of us were confident he could play. He's effectively given us back a spare position for the team. A position admirably filled by Allen.

 

 

[Pureblood]

A'right, cool.

 

 

TK, I've got no problem with anything you've said about Lucas, anything you said about the midfield, anything you said about wanting Lucas and Gerrard playing, or any of that stuff. I have an issue with you bumping threads and trying to make make a cunt of people who quite obviously saw the issue with the midfield. If you disagree with me on whether Lucas should play or not, you'll get no issue from me. Surely you can see saying 'wrong' to stuff like 'I want this player or that player' is going to get people's back up when you're saying about the Lucas/Gerrard partnership and how lucas must play for us to win 'n all that. If that's your opinion, you're more than welcome to it. Just know that I'll obviously defend my views if I still hold them.

 

I know we jab at each other, but I also know that we both rep each other in different parts of the site so there's no real seriousness about anything or any real vendetta, certainly not on my part. If you want to bury this issue, do you agree with what I said in September? About Gerrard playing deeper and needing the legs of Allen, Hendo, with Coutinho dropping deeper to help out? Do you at least acknowledge that we have changed around the midfield unit, dropping one of them and changing the formation of those three? If you do agree with those, we're not that far apart. If you want Lucas to come into that midfield, that's fine. I really, really don't. That's fine too. Either way, it's pointless butting heads all the time if that's the only issue here.

 

The reason I bump this thread periodically is because it was roundly ridiculed at the time.  Yet at Xmas we were top the league and we're top now with five games left.  So maybe there is some truth in the title of this thread.  More truth than you probably care to admit.  Would it help if I added "ers" on the end of it?  It would still probably have been ridiculed at the time even I had done that.  People were adamant the personnel was wrong.  Gerrard and Lucas could NEVER play together, especially if Henderson was the other player (see one of your quotes on the previous page).  Well, they did okay against West Ham on Sunday if you ask me.  And in numerous game prior to that. 

 

Of course I acknowledge that the midfield has been adjusted, I'm not thick.  I acknowledge I was wrong about Gerrard dropping back in place of Lucas.  That doesn't mean the whole basis of this thread is misguided, which is the conclusion you seem to have reached.

 

As for Lucas, I want him to play when it's best for the team like it was on Sunday.  I trust Rodgers to make the right call so it's not for me to say who should play every game and in which position. I like Lucas and think he can be an important player over the next five games, and I'm made up with the impact him, Henderson and Gerrard made on Sunday's game.  If Rodgers decides he wants those three in again you won't hear any complaints from me.  I think his favourite midfield is Gerrard, Allen and Henderson but Allen can be brittle and his performances can be inconsistent from one game to the next.  I think he's the one most at risk of losing his place after Lucas's display on Sunday.  

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I think it was ridiculed because the midfield was set-up so bad, it was so ineffective, it was so poor from game to game that it was a joke. We've changed, as you say, so it's a different midfield. There's not much more to it than that. Had you not bumped it, I'd have not given a shit.

 

Lucas did do well for the 45 minutes (in a different position), but that doesn't override the rest of the season when him and Gerrard were poor and it doesn't override how well we've been since he hasn't been in the team. It's not because he's he's shit, it's just because we're less than the sum of our parts when he and Gerrard are in it.

[Pureblood]

But we were top of the league.  If Gerrard, Lucas and Henderson are so bad together why did Rodgers end the game on Sunday with that as his midfield, notwithstanding that the positions have been altered. 

[stringvest]

Allen was carrying a knock.

[Pureblood]

But Lucas and gerrard must NEVER play together. Countinho and Allen were available. Toure. Anyone. Why is Lucas even on the bench if him and Gerrard, who combined to win the match, can't ever play together?

[stringvest]

TKs 14 year old alter ego has resurfaced.

 

Just humour him until he blows himself out, slips below the lab table, and the adult TK resurfaces.

[The Woolster]

No, I mean the stuff where he says what I said which makes my entire point relevant. Look, the midfield had a fuck load wrong with the way it was set-up, at least in my opinion and the opinions of hundreds of people at the time the matches were being played. That has changed, we've switched the way the midfield sets-up, we've changed personnel, and we're doing much better because of it. I don't even see why there's still a debate about this? It's not one of those marginal, opinion based things; these things have happened. If you want to pick up TK's argument, that's fine. I don't see why you would, because it's daft. If you want to pick up something you've said back in November, that's fine too. I've just no idea what it is. Either way, I don't know how anybody can smugly bump themselves saying the midfield - not the midfielders - were fine, then saying how Hendo, Gerrard and Lucas was fine, then think they were right about it. It took a massive change for it to work.

Im on my phone now, so I'm not breaking your post up, but on the first part, I'm confused as I'm not actually sure what im meant to read, but its prob best to just leave it.

 

I bumped my post as a laugh, to take the piss out of those who've been posting, and to take the piss out of myself, not to be smug. You responded about the midfield changing, but we obv have different views on what we mean when we say midfield.

 

But no, I don't think it was a massive change in the midfield. I don't think it's about the formation, and our core squad is so good, it's not about the personnel, it's about the phases of play, transitions, movement and circulation, and i think that may well have been tweaked, altho my memory has turned to shit, prior to Lucas injury. but those tweaks takes work on the training ground to get it right.

 

I think people get too het up about formations tho, so the fact hundreds of people thought that our midfield had a fuck load wrong with it and I didn't, I'm pretty comfortable with, because we are looking at things differently

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

But no, I don't think it was a massive change in the midfield.

Ah, okay. I see the root of the disagreement. No point in going on.

[The Woolster]

Do I think a switch from a 2 and a 1 to a 1 and a 2 as a massive change? No

 

Do I think a switch from Lucas to Coutinho/Allen as a massive change? No

 

I think the main change was in how we attempt to create space and get our attackers 1v1 with their defenders, and I think that change happened soon after Suarez came back in the team.

 

I do think the midfield switch has allowed us to press higher though, so that was a positive

[The Woolster]

Although, to be honest, a lot of that might be down to spending so much more time in the lead, that has a massive influence on games

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Not sure why you've broken the change down into constituent parts. Seems a strange thing to do. The size of the change should be judged on the entire change. I think it was huge. From a slow pairing of Lucas and Gerrard, which was being cut through like a knife through butter, didn't press, was dominated by some very average midfielders, and lacked any tempo or attacking intent from deep, to a side that presses from the front, shields the defence, closes the space, protects the fullbacks, creates and scores goals more frequently, and also allows us to better accommodate our attacking players.

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen a bigger change in a midfield with two of the three players remaining. The way it operates is, for me, entirely different. A seismic shift. We're scoring more, conceding fewer, and most importantly we're picking up points at a much higher rate. For me, we've gone from being a side with a really good attack, to a side which can dominate teams through the middle and use our attack even better than we did before. A side which can beat the top sides rather than look shaky. The change in Gerrard is huge. His role in the team is totally different. The way we don't allow teams to settle without our dogs of war bitting their arses... it's just a massive difference in set-up, operation and output. It's the total opposite of how it was functioning.

 

We're obviously miles apart on this.

[The Woolster]

Not sure why you've broken the change down into constituent parts. Seems a strange thing to do. The size of the change should be judged on the entire change. I think it was huge.

 

Becasue I don't think the changes in the constituent parts were particularly big, and whilst the whole can be bigger than the sum of its parts, in this case I think its more of a case of 2+2=5 rather than 2+2=8 so to speak.

 

From a slow pairing of Lucas and Gerrard, which was being cut through like a knife through butter, didn't press, was dominated by some very average midfielders, and lacked any tempo or attacking intent from deep

 

Yet there we were after 20 games, admitedly in only 4th spot, but having been very unlucky not to take points from both the City and Chelsea game. During that time Suarez had missed 5 of our games, Gerrard had missed 4 of our games and Sturridge had missed 8 of our games, and 4 of those were the same games that Gerrard missed. Our 3 most important players, in my opinion, missed a decent chunk of our games, that is bound to have an effect on how we play and the outcomes of our games.

 

A midfield that was being dominated and cut through like a knife with butter, yet were only conceding 1.15 goals a game.

 

to a side that presses from the front,

 

Yes, the switch to a 1 and a 2 or diamond has helped us press form the front, that has been a positive.

 

shields the defence, closes the space, protects the fullbacks,

 

Yet in the games since Gerrard returned from injury, we've conceded more goals per game at 1.31.

 

creates and scores goals more frequently, and also allows us to better accommodate our attacking players.

 

Yeah, it also helps when your 3 best players, 2 of which are your top scorers, plays every game together.

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen a bigger change in a midfield with two of the three players remaining. The way it operates is, for me, entirely different. A seismic shift. We're scoring more, conceding fewer, and most importantly we're picking up points at a much higher rate. For me, we've gone from being a side with a really good attack, to a side which can dominate teams through the middle and use our attack even better than we did before. A side which can beat the top sides rather than look shaky. The change in Gerrard is huge. His role in the team is totally different. The way we don't allow teams to settle without our dogs of war bitting their arses... it's just a massive difference in set-up, operation and output. It's the total opposite of how it was functioning.

 

We're obviously miles apart on this.

It makes for a fantastic narrative, but there was no seismic shift. We are a team that has been improving since about December of last season and, in my opinion, what we are seeing is the culmination of a number of factors:

 

More time spent on the training ground so that movement, runs, and knowing where team mates will be becomes instinctive

A young team becoming more experienced, which improves consistency, and in turn improves confidence.

The increasing effect of Steve Peters on our mentality.

Our periodisation training which sees us get fitter relative to most other teams as the season goes on (at the start of next season I will not be surprised to hear about how sluggish we are in the 2nd half of matches, for the 3rd season in a row).

The lack of European football and midweek games.

A nice dose of luck.

 

However those things are intangible, they are hard to measure or see and their effects are gradual.

 

I think that the change in our play happened soon after Suarez came back, around the time we went 3 at the back, since then we have been circulating the ball in our own half more, triyng to pull the oppo defence up the pitch and then breaking quickly either with a ball in behind the defence or trying to get our attackers in 1v1 situations. We've been taking fewer shots but creating chances of higher quality.

 

Although I don't think it was a massive change, I do think it was something that needed time to work on, and as much of Rodgers work is about patterns of play, I think it took a while, as well as our 3 best players all being available, before we saw it at its full effect.

 

And all that has been helped by the fact we've managed to score goals and take the lead so early in matches.

[Pureblood]

*applause*