PODCAST: Alexis Mac Allister is a Red - Signing Reaction

1 hour ago, JohnnyH said:

The rest of the pod was a great listen as usual.  Really interesting chat about what happens to Kostas for example with the way our play is changing.

 

The Fabinho chat was really interesting too.  Firstly, the whole sacrificing a player just to shake up the dressing room thing is a load of nonsense.  It was nonsense 20 years ago and is nonsense now.  In fact, no proper manager would ever use it now in the modern world where staff (be they multi-millionaire footballers, or people in an office) expect to be treated fairly and decently.  A manager who does it would lose the dressing room immediately.  Alex Ferguson is always used as an example, yet he never did it.  What Ferguson did was move players on at the right time.  Like we did with Gini and Mane for example.  Mark Hughes, Paul Ince, Roy Keane, Andre Kancelskis – they were all finished at the top level.  They weren’t “shock sacrifices” they were good, sensible player management.  The one that is used as an example of it is Jaap Stam, yet that wasn’t the case at all.  Stam wrote a book that criticised Ferguson so he dumped him.  And even at that, Ferguson has said since that he regrets that.  Yes, the players were shocked, but only at Ferguson for cutting off his nose to spite his face.    I noticed that on the pod Paul gave the Usher standard of “I agree but” and then went on to correctly say that that just isn’t Klopps style and he’d never do it. No manager would.  The players would immediately lose trust in the manager. 

 

But the whole matter-of-fact conversation was bonkers, to me.  It was so easily said that he was brilliant for years, but then had a huge drop off (which he did) and then “yeah he might have got his form back for the second half of season but”????  What????  The whole rest of his career is just ignored and it’s decided that the last 6 months and the 4 seasons before that somehow don’t count? I nearly crashed the bus I was pretending to drive from the top deck front seat.

 

We have already lost 3 midfielders this season in Kieta, Milner and Ox.  Thiago may as well count as 4 gone as we get no playing time from him.  Henderson is starting to wane and can’t do 90 mins every week and will become that Milner role.  So just the matter-of-fact decision we should get rid of ANOTHER key midfielder is bonkers stuff.  And that’s why it won’t happen.  Mac Allister should settle quickly, but imagine one of Thuram or whoever comes in takes a bit of time to find his feet (like EVERY Klopp signing does) we’d be crying out for a Fabinho.  We can definitely consider moving him on next summer, but it would be madness to do it this summer. This isn’t football manager, you can’t make massively wild changes and expect it all to work immediately.   Also, we need to stop referencing the first half of the season as if that’s his norm.  We saw easily enough over the second half of the season that he still has a role to play, and so I find it extraordinary that people just dismiss that I don’t know who said it on the pod that “We need to make it clear that you can’t fall off a cliff like that and expect to stay at Liverpool”, but I assume that person will also be demanding we sell Trent if that’s the criteria?  Ands the answer is no, of course they won’t.  We talk about Trent re-finding his form and that’s brilliant news, but not Fabinho?  He’s only 29.  He has a key role to play, even if it is to help bridge the change to a new midfield next season.

 

But having said ALL that, I do fully accept that I seem to be the only one who thinks this way?  Certainly on the pod whenever it’s brought up you all seem to agree with each other that Fabinho is done and should go (whether you think Klopp will move him on or not is another thing) and so I appreciate there is a very strong view out there and I seem to be in the significant minority, but I just think the second half of the season backs me up?

 

Anyway, great pod again.  And I look forward to a new pod every time we sign someone.  Especially if it’s some 18 year old no-mark.  Or will it be like Real Madrid where only the big names get the stadium announcement kicking balls into the crowd…..

Paul Ince was 27 

Beckham was 28

Van Nistelrooy was 29

All booted out at the peak of their abilities

Another enjoyable listen, thanks fellas.  Looking forward to more over the summer if we make any further signings of course!

Agree totally that Fabinho should stay, and if another has to leave it should be Thiago.  Fabinho has given us far more than Thiago and still looks more capable despite his very "patchy" form. I think both of them will stay though, no one is coming in for them with a fee and we just don't release players even if it means releasing big wages.

5 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

Paul Ince was 27 

 

Beckham was 28

 

Van Nistelrooy was 29

 

All booted out at the peak of their abilities

 

 

Why am I not surprised that you've missed the point entirely.

Ferguson massively disliked Ince, and now had the much better player Roy Keane for his position, and so happily moved him on to Inter.  This was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squad as the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

Beckham had had very public issues with Ferguson for a long time and so, similar to Keane, and now had a certain Cristiano Ronaldo signed to play Right Midfield. Again, this was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squad as the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

Van Nistelrooy was suspended for a punch up with Ronaldo and rowing with Ferguson, and then asked to leave for Real Madrid, and Ferguson was happy to let him go.  Again, this was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squadas the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

Fabinho is a respected, hard working, respectful member of the squad.  Not the above in all cases where the relationships had broken down and better players were taking over. 

14 minutes ago, dave u said:

I'm not listening back to it, but pretty sure I didn't say I wanted Fabinho moved on this summer. I thought I argued against it in fact.

 

Pretty sure I said we should keep him for this season while we integrate the new midfielders. I do want him replaced because he'll be 30 soon and I do think we've seen his best days, but I'm not advocating kicking him out of the door now and I think he'll play a fair bit next season.

From memory your comment after the other two said he should go was "yeah, but there's no way Klopp does that".  And then you may have spoken a bit more, but Brownie and Paul spoke about it a lot more, and I'm reacting to their comments which seem to be the general consensus to be fair.  

2 hours ago, JohnnyH said:

The rest of the pod was a great listen as usual.  Really interesting chat about what happens to Kostas for example with the way our play is changing.

 

The Fabinho chat was really interesting too.  Firstly, the whole sacrificing a player just to shake up the dressing room thing is a load of nonsense.  It was nonsense 20 years ago and is nonsense now.  In fact, no proper manager would ever use it now in the modern world where staff (be they multi-millionaire footballers, or people in an office) expect to be treated fairly and decently.  A manager who does it would lose the dressing room immediately.  Alex Ferguson is always used as an example, yet he never did it.  What Ferguson did was move players on at the right time.  Like we did with Gini and Mane for example.  Mark Hughes, Paul Ince, Roy Keane, Andre Kancelskis – they were all finished at the top level.  They weren’t “shock sacrifices” they were good, sensible player management.  The one that is used as an example of it is Jaap Stam, yet that wasn’t the case at all.  Stam wrote a book that criticised Ferguson so he dumped him.  And even at that, Ferguson has said since that he regrets that.  Yes, the players were shocked, but only at Ferguson for cutting off his nose to spite his face.    I noticed that on the pod Paul gave the Usher standard of “I agree but” and then went on to correctly say that that just isn’t Klopps style and he’d never do it. No manager would.  The players would immediately lose trust in the manager. 

 

But the whole matter-of-fact conversation was bonkers, to me.  It was so easily said that he was brilliant for years, but then had a huge drop off (which he did) and then “yeah he might have got his form back for the second half of season but”????  What????  The whole rest of his career is just ignored and it’s decided that the last 6 months and the 4 seasons before that somehow don’t count? I nearly crashed the bus I was pretending to drive from the top deck front seat.

 

We have already lost 3 midfielders this season in Kieta, Milner and Ox.  Thiago may as well count as 4 gone as we get no playing time from him.  Henderson is starting to wane and can’t do 90 mins every week and will become that Milner role.  So just the matter-of-fact decision we should get rid of ANOTHER key midfielder is bonkers stuff.  And that’s why it won’t happen.  Mac Allister should settle quickly, but imagine one of Thuram or whoever comes in takes a bit of time to find his feet (like EVERY Klopp signing does) we’d be crying out for a Fabinho.  We can definitely consider moving him on next summer, but it would be madness to do it this summer. This isn’t football manager, you can’t make massively wild changes and expect it all to work immediately.   Also, we need to stop referencing the first half of the season as if that’s his norm.  We saw easily enough over the second half of the season that he still has a role to play, and so I find it extraordinary that people just dismiss that I don’t know who said it on the pod that “We need to make it clear that you can’t fall off a cliff like that and expect to stay at Liverpool”, but I assume that person will also be demanding we sell Trent if that’s the criteria?  Ands the answer is no, of course they won’t.  We talk about Trent re-finding his form and that’s brilliant news, but not Fabinho?  He’s only 29.  He has a key role to play, even if it is to help bridge the change to a new midfield next season.

 

But having said ALL that, I do fully accept that I seem to be the only one who thinks this way?  Certainly on the pod whenever it’s brought up you all seem to agree with each other that Fabinho is done and should go (whether you think Klopp will move him on or not is another thing) and so I appreciate there is a very strong view out there and I seem to be in the significant minority, but I just think the second half of the season backs me up?

 

Anyway, great pod again.  And I look forward to a new pod every time we sign someone.  Especially if it’s some 18 year old no-mark.  Or will it be like Real Madrid where only the big names get the stadium announcement kicking balls into the crowd…..

You REALLY engaged with the pod. Nice one. 

26 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

 

Why am I not surprised that you've missed the point entirely.

 

Ferguson massively disliked Ince, and now had the much better player Roy Keane for his position, and so happily moved him on to Inter.  This was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squad as the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

 

Beckham had had very public issues with Ferguson for a long time and so, similar to Keane, and now had a certain Cristiano Ronaldo signed to play Right Midfield. Again, this was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squad as the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

 

Van Nistelrooy was suspended for a punch up with Ronaldo and rowing with Ferguson, and then asked to leave for Real Madrid, and Ferguson was happy to let him go.  Again, this was not sacrificing a player to shake up the squadas the squad was most certainly not shaken up by it.

 

Fabinho is a respected, hard working, respectful member of the squad.  Not the above in all cases where the relationships had broken down and better players were taking over. 

You can give whatever reasons you want, fact is he got rid of several playets in their peak and received funds for them. 

If we keep fabinho for another year then he will almost certainly see out the rest of his contract and leave on another free transfer. Something we can't afford to keep doing with our owners

2 minutes ago, Daisy said:

You can give whatever reasons you want, fact is he got rid of several playets in their peak and received funds for them. 

 

If we keep fabinho for another year then he will almost certainly see out the rest of his contract and leave on another free transfer. Something we can't afford to keep doing with our owners

Now that's spectacular missing of the point.  Well done.

26 minutes ago, Paul said:

You REALLY engaged with the pod. Nice one. 

Ha.  Always though.  It's genuinely my favourite Liverpool pod.  I was signed up to TAW a good few years ago but stopped when one of their contributors was being an anti-Irish snide.  I listen to the free ones every now and then and I genuinely don't think they compare.  I know they do a lot of other specific good stuff, but for a chat about the game I think yours is better.  I listen to the Tony Evans one and that's ok, although Tony is an unbelievably bad presenter. Absolutely terrible.  There's an Irish one which I'm not fond of, so I haven't listened for a long time.  Also getting to discuss it here, and agree or disagree with the contributors who may then respond is a huge plus.  Once my kids area old enough to start coming back to games I'll definitely be buying yea all a pint.

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

You can give whatever reasons you want, fact is he got rid of several playets in their peak and received funds for them. 

 

If we keep fabinho for another year then he will almost certainly see out the rest of his contract and leave on another free transfer. Something we can't afford to keep doing with our owners

Your point being that klopp shouldnt sell Fabinho because hes a good egg? 

26 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Your point being that klopp shouldnt sell Fabinho because hes a good egg? 

God you're a dunce.

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

Your point being that klopp shouldnt sell Fabinho because hes a good egg? 

I’m genuinely hoping you’re trying to be one of those wind up merchants.  Because if you’re not, and that was a genuine comment, then you are dangerously thick.  Truly up there with some of the dumbest people to ever enter a football forum, and that’s saying something.   

54 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

I’m genuinely hoping you’re trying to be one of those wind up merchants.  Because if you’re not, and that was a genuine comment, then you are dangerously thick.  Truly up there with some of the dumbest people to ever enter a football forum, and that’s saying something.   

Pipe down you silly twat. Fabinho needs to go

12 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

Pipe down you silly twat. Fabinho needs to go

So the latter then. Good to know. 

21 hours ago, Daisy said:

 

Paul Ince was 27 

 

Beckham was 28

 

Van Nistelrooy was 29

 

All booted out at the peak of their abilities

 

 

The turnover of Hughes, Kanchelskis and Ince in 95 gives a lot more credit to Ferguson than he deserves. 

Hughes wouldn't sign a new contract because he probably saw the writing on the wall after Cole had been bought for £7m, so United cashed in.

All around Kanchelskis was a basket case, including an alleged (by Ferguson) bung of £40k for sorting his contract. The winger was also due 30% of any transfer from United so he was pushing for the deal all through his final year. 

Ince was a calculated risk alright. £8m was huge money at the time. He was going to be 28 a couple of months after his transfer to Inter and Butt was deemed ready to replace him. Note, it wasn't to free up game time for Scholes, who had only played 17 league games, mostly in forward positions, by this time, and he was almost 21. 

Both Beckham and Van Nistelrooy had lost the assurance of a first team place by the time they were sold. Quiroz had come in as assistant coach to Ferguson and was pushing for a 433 formation. This didn’t really suit Beckham (Solksjaer played a lot on the right side that season), but also Ferguson had become tired of the ever growing Beckam brand. Van Nistelrooy had lost his place to Saha in the United team as he wasn't really suited to a lone striker role. He had fallen out with Ronaldo and Ferguson and wanted to leave. He was 30 years old and while he was excellent in his first season at Madrid, he played a total of 31 league games in his final 2.5 years at the club. 

Stam is the weird one. It has been said that United needed the cash to fund Veron, Van Nistelrooy and Forlan, and £16 for a 29 year old was deemed good business, and that all the book rumours were used as cover. However, Ferguson has lamented the sale saying that he misjudged Stam's slow recovery from an achilles injury as signs that he was on the decline. 

The fact that Ferguson's son made a few bob from the deal had nothing to do with it. No sirrreeee. 

Or maybe that Stam had a positive drug test for steroids, a couple of weeks after he left might have had something to do with it. 

He didn’t sell another centre back that had drug test issues a couple of years later though, so who knows. 

I stand by my views on Fab. We need more legs. We’ve had to totally change our system to accommodate him because he can’t cope with playing the 6 on his own any more.

I’d rather we have more flexibility so we can dovetail between systems as and when required.

It doesn’t mean I don’t value his massive contribution over the years but I’m too long in the tooth for nostalgia.

I want us back competing again.

I think the idea we just snap our fingers and that’s it the players are going is fanciful.  I think our cards are marked with how often players leave here and fall off a cliff.  Teams have paid good money for loads of players and been burned to the point players who are actually decent and worth a fee like Phillips and Kelleher aren’t going because nobody wants to pay the money.  I don’t even think it’s silly money that’s been asked for either.

Thiago isn’t going anywhere because we are paying him 200k a week.  It’s because getting a player of his quality at arguably his peak age with only a year left at Bayern meant that we had to give him a 4 year deal on that amount where the money at the back end of his contract was never going to look worth it so even excluding the injuries.  It’s all well and good saying let him leave on a free but when does this ever happen?  The player isn’t going to leave that money on the table and he isn’t getting elsewhere now either.  So we would end up having to pay him to leave and then replace him.  It’s just cutting our nose off when we can just play him when he’s available for those 30 games.

In terms of Fabinho I can’t see him leaving either.  Who is buying him and paying him what we do?  If we go to the market saying he’s definitely leaving and find a club then we are getting peanuts for him.  It’s not like there is big demand for him and he’s getting linked everywhere.  We may as well keep him considering his form turned around.

On the Saudi league thing I can’t see it taking off.  It doesn’t work the same as golf.  People watch golf to watch the players.  They could take all the best footy players over there and fill the league with them.  It won’t make a difference.  You can’t create team fan bases like that.  It takes generations of parents being livid at results and jumping through the ceiling when goals go in to imprint it on their kids and so on.  As much as people like and follow footballers it’s their teams that people care about and that’s what makes the premier league what it is.  I think the Saudis might have more staying power than the Chinese did but even with as much money as they’ve got can they just throw double the money at every player for 10-20 years across 20-40 teams.  I can’t see it happening.

I agree, which is why I have no problem with them spending all the money they want getting players over there. They can't buy everybody and the top European leagues will still be more attractive to most players.

I’m going to save listening to this for the long drive with my mum to Cornwall tomorrow. It’s the only thing that stops us falling out.

Edit- can you all please do another one before Friday next week when we drive back.

On 13/06/2023 at 12:50, Paul said:

You REALLY engaged with the pod. Nice one. 

You better believe Johnny is sat with his pad of paper and a pen taking notes on the top deck of the bus. 

On 13/06/2023 at 13:22, JohnnyH said:

 

Ha.  Always though.  It's genuinely my favourite Liverpool pod.  I was signed up to TAW a good few years ago but stopped when one of their contributors was being an anti-Irish snide.  I listen to the free ones every now and then and I genuinely don't think they compare.  I know they do a lot of other specific good stuff, but for a chat about the game I think yours is better.  I listen to the Tony Evans one and that's ok, although Tony is an unbelievably bad presenter. Absolutely terrible.  There's an Irish one which I'm not fond of, so I haven't listened for a long time.  Also getting to discuss it here, and agree or disagree with the contributors who may then respond is a huge plus.  Once my kids area old enough to start coming back to games I'll definitely be buying yea all a pint.

Do you like the Irish or you don't like them? 

44 minutes ago, TheBitch said:

You better believe Johnny is sat with his pad of paper and a pen taking notes on the top deck of the bus. 

You have no idea how close that is to the truth.  I was sitting at the front of the bus listening to the pod and when the Fabinho chat started I got my phone out, opened the "notes" app and stated jotting down my grievances so I didn't forget them.  Now that I'm writing this and realising what I did, I fucking hate myself. 

6 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Do you like the Irish or you don't like them? 

Lets be honest here, they can be really fucking annoying.

47 minutes ago, JohnnyH said:

 

You have no idea how close that is to the truth.  I was sitting at the front of the bus listening to the pod and when the Fabinho chat started I got my phone out, opened the "notes" app and stated jotting down my grievances so I didn't forget them.  Now that I'm writing this and realising what I did, I fucking hate myself. 

 

 

 

Lets be honest here, they can be really fucking annoying.

Hahahaha. This just makes me like you even more. 

After listening to the pod I'll tell you one thing and I'm not ashamed to say it, my estimation of @dave uas a man just fucking plummeted. Throwing out a five foot fish tank because of a woman? 

35 minutes ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

After listening to the pod I'll tell you one thing and I'm not ashamed to say it, my estimation of @dave uas a man just fucking plummeted. Throwing out a five foot fish tank because of a woman? 

The alternative was throwing a five foot woman out because of a fish tank

30 minutes ago, Jimmy Hills Chin said:

The alternative was throwing a five foot woman out because of a fish tank

As they say "he got the big calls right "