Klopp: This season is not a true reflection of who we are

On 04/04/2023 at 19:52, BeefStroganoff said:

And what has VDV done this season? Or Konate? or Matip? Or Gomez?

 

I'll tell you what, mistakes, mistakes, mistakes. So why not play Phillips? At least he will challenge for every header, he will throw in a tackle and he will make a fist of it. If he makes a mistake then he's no worse than that lot.

VVD didnt play last night and Klopp didnt even select him.

Vvd has been poor this season, no doubt about it. He's another one who should fuck the international team off and get some rest this summer. He's come back from that injury at the start of 21-22 and played around 100 games for club and country since. And there's still 10 league games to go this season and his international season won't finish till late June because the Netherlands are through to this nations league nonsense. It's fucking mental and no wonder he's going round like he's in a daze.

But the idea Phillips could replace him would last about 2 minutes. The lad got absolutely slaughtered after his only league start this season and would have got it more had Nunez not got sent off. He seems a good lad, but there's a reason he rarely even warms our bench. Even Bournemouth weren't interested in him after he played a part in getting them up. 

What we need is those other centre backs to up their game.or fuck off. If any of them could stay fit for more than about 2 minutes and when they were fit could put in consistently good performance, maybe we wouldn't have put the workload on vvd after such major injury. 

It's amazing that the 'Klopp said' snippets only feature the small bits he says,among thousands of quotes,that can be made to look foolish. Its almost as if it's done on purpose!

On 04/04/2023 at 19:52, BeefStroganoff said:

And what has VDV done this season? Or Konate? or Matip? Or Gomez?

 

I'll tell you what, mistakes, mistakes, mistakes. So why not play Phillips? At least he will challenge for every header, he will throw in a tackle and he will make a fist of it. If he makes a mistake then he's no worse than that lot.

Probably cause Phillips is a slow error prone donkey and everyone knows it.  When he makes mistakes, everyone shrugs their shoulders and talks about him sticking his head on the ball two years ago.

2 hours ago, Grinch said:

Probably cause Phillips is a slow error prone donkey and everyone knows it.  When he makes mistakes, everyone shrugs their shoulders and talks about him sticking his head on the ball two years ago.

 

 

see also R. Firmino etc etc

Been thinking more about Klopp's comments about Rashford earlier in the season today - about how he was shite last season but been great this season.

I wonder if Klopp is thinking that could apply to us? Proper break and pre-season and we'll be raring to go again.

If you look at Arsenal, Newcastle and the manc and their improvements this season, I suppose there is an argument that with a few key signings in key positions (Martinez, Casimiro, Eriksen, Pope, Guimaraes, Jesus, Zinchenko, Saliba etc) then you can make improvements quickly.

Similarly, has there ever been players more finished than Xhaka & Shaw who have gone on to turn themselves around?

I know a high level sacrifice is had been mentioned by many (including me). Arsenal & the mancs both had the perfect victims in Aubameyang & Ronaldo - getting on, high wages, unprofessional behaviour. We don't have an obvious candidate for that fall guy. The more I think about it, the more I think Klopp won't do it. 

I'm not saying everything is great, this is a blip and we'll be back. Klopp obviously has some very difficult and very important decisions to make. It's going to take a lot of hard work to get us back to challenging on all front. I don't feel that half the squad is a write off though.

We are where we are now because we refuse to compete with the teams around us financially,either by strategy or stubbornness. That has worked for about five or six seasons due to having players at the peak of their careers. Now we have a mixture of those approaching their peak (or still a way off) and those quite a distance past it. To fill those gaps is costly and should have been planned a couple of years back,at least. The problems now were foreseeable yet the money people sat on their hands when most needed. Klopp isn't blameless but as he had a team playing way beyond it's level he deserves little criticism at all given what he has achieved here. Very few managers could achieve what he has done.

25 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

We are where we are now because we refuse to compete with the teams around us financially,either by strategy or stubbornness. That has worked for about five or six seasons due to having players at the peak of their careers. Now we have a mixture of those approaching their peak (or still a way off) and those quite a distance past it. To fill those gaps is costly and should have been planned a couple of years back,at least. The problems now were foreseeable yet the money people sat on their hands when most needed. Klopp isn't blameless but as he had a team playing way beyond it's level he deserves little criticism at all given what he has achieved here. Very few managers could achieve what he has done.

So, in summary, we should have spent more money when we were on top?

I don’t necessarily disagree, isn’t that way too simplistic?

Also, apart from Mo, we have replaced the whole forward line and we have Konate at a good age at the back. 
 

I get the point on midfield, I really do. However, for example, look at Xhaka. Completely finished at Arsenal and has come back this season and is his best ever form for them. Both players are 29/30. Do we think Xhaka is a better player than Fabinho or that Fabinho can’t resurrect his form like Xhaka? 

Or Luke Shaw. Do we think he’s a better player than Robbo or TAA? 
 

IMO, VVD can still have a career at the top level like Ramos or Thiago Silva. Varane was poor last season, he’s been decent this season. 

Like what Arsenal & Newcastle have done, get some more mobile, willing runners & quality footballers in the side (for example, we all expect Bellingham will be a better quality footballer than Hendo etc) and I don’t think all is lost with this squad.

As I said above, I’m not saying everything is great, Klopp has some very difficult and very important decisions to make this summer. Being blunt, his job likely relies on him getting the vast majority right. 

I think the point I’m making is that there is evidence inferior players, with inferior squads and inferior coaches to our current first team set up have resurrected themselves from worse positions we currently find ourselves in. 

4 hours ago, stringvest said:

see also R. Firmino etc etc

Yes Roberto Firmino who’s been pivotal to winning everything for us is the same as Nat Phillips.

2 hours ago, Grinch said:

Yes Roberto Firmino who’s been pivotal to winning everything for us is the same as Nat Phillips.

they’re about as relevant to our future success as each other.  

11 hours ago, Scott_M said:

So, in summary, we should have spent more money when we were on top?

 

I don’t necessarily disagree, isn’t that way too simplistic?

 

Also, apart from Mo, we have replaced the whole forward line and we have Konate at a good age at the back. 
 

I get the point on midfield, I really do. However, for example, look at Xhaka. Completely finished at Arsenal and has come back this season and is his best ever form for them. Both players are 29/30. Do we think Xhaka is a better player than Fabinho or that Fabinho can’t resurrect his form like Xhaka? 

Or Luke Shaw. Do we think he’s a better player than Robbo or TAA? 
 

IMO, VVD can still have a career at the top level like Ramos or Thiago Silva. Varane was poor last season, he’s been decent this season. 

 

Like what Arsenal & Newcastle have done, get some more mobile, willing runners & quality footballers in the side (for example, we all expect Bellingham will be a better quality footballer than Hendo etc) and I don’t think all is lost with this squad.

 

As I said above, I’m not saying everything is great, Klopp has some very difficult and very important decisions to make this summer. Being blunt, his job likely relies on him getting the vast majority right. 

 

I think the point I’m making is that there is evidence inferior players, with inferior squads and inferior coaches to our current first team set up have resurrected themselves from worse positions we currently find ourselves in. 

Xhaka is not far off being Arsenal's only player aged 30....we have a squad chocker full of players 30 and over.

Ages at start of next season.

Milner 37

Henderson 33

Thiago 32

Matip 31

VVD 32

Matip 32

Salah 31

Fabinho 30

Firmino 32 (Ok he is going)

Alisson 31 (Not such a problem with a keeper to be fair)

It is hard to see how most of those are ever going to recapture what they were or be able to properly consistently be at the level they'll need to be at to get us back to the top. The miles on the clock and in old legs are heavy, and playing in a Klopp team miles are more wearing than most - they are the tough uphill paperround miles of the football world!

We have allowed our squad to age without enough refreshing of it.

We have literally no midfielders for example who are in the widely considered peak/prime age - and actually few players in squad at peak/prime age...we have brought in some who are approaching it in next couple of years or so which is good, but for me we've not done enough especially im midfield to refresh and energise the squad.

8 hours ago, an tha said:

Xhaka is not far off being Arsenal's only player aged 30....we have a squad chocker full of players 30 and over.

 

Ages at start of next season.

 

Milner 37

Henderson 33

Thiago 32

Matip 31

VVD 32

Matip 32

Salah 31

Fabinho 30

Firmino 32 (Ok he is going)

Alisson 31 (Not such a problem with a keeper to be fair)

 

It is hard to see how most of those are ever going to recapture what they were or be able to properly consistently be at the level they'll need to be at to get us back to the top. The miles on the clock and in old legs are heavy, and playing in a Klopp team miles are more wearing than most - they are the tough uphill paperround miles of the football world!

 

We have allowed our squad to age without enough refreshing of it.

 

We have literally no midfielders for example who are in the widely considered peak/prime age - and actually few players in squad at peak/prime age...we have brought in some who are approaching it in next couple of years or so which is good, but for me we've not done enough especially im midfield to refresh and energise the squad.

 

Where were we hiding the second (and younger) Matip in 2020/21? Could have done with him instead of shoehorning Fab and Hendo in.

8 hours ago, an tha said:

Xhaka is not far off being Arsenal's only player aged 30....we have a squad chocker full of players 30 and over.

 

Ages at start of next season.

 

Milner 37

Henderson 33

Thiago 32

Matip 31

VVD 32

Matip 32

Salah 31

Fabinho 30

Firmino 32 (Ok he is going)

Alisson 31 (Not such a problem with a keeper to be fair)

 

It is hard to see how most of those are ever going to recapture what they were or be able to properly consistently be at the level they'll need to be at to get us back to the top. The miles on the clock and in old legs are heavy, and playing in a Klopp team miles are more wearing than most - they are the tough uphill paperround miles of the football world!

 

We have allowed our squad to age without enough refreshing of it.

 

We have literally no midfielders for example who are in the widely considered peak/prime age - and actually few players in squad at peak/prime age...we have brought in some who are approaching it in next couple of years or so which is good, but for me we've not done enough especially im midfield to refresh and energise the squad.

 

 

 

You’re completely right on the players ages into the start of next season. Nobody is disputing that or that we have let the players grow old together.  
 

My point is, if we get things right in the summer, how many of those players are going to be starting regularly? 

I’d suggest only Alisson, VVD, maybe Fabinho and Salah.

We agree that age shouldn’t be a factor with Alisson. I don’t think VVD & Salah will have gone from the best players in the world / ever played for the club to dramatically falling off a cliff. They can get it back (especially the way Mo takes care of himself). Also, if we aren’t in the CL, their schedule becomes clearer.

IMO, Fabinho is the biggest worry. I think I put in the transfer thread, if we get willing runners around him, could he recapture his old self? There is evidence that in players like Xhaka, that players can get their best form back. 

Then if we’re using Hendo or Thiago more fleetingly, that’s fine.

Just because players hit 30, doesn’t need they need to be completely binned. There is absolutely still a place for them in the squad. In the summer, we need to make sure we get our signings (and sales) spot on so we’re not getting ourselves into this position again in future. 
 

Not a dig at you, posts of “We don’t spend enough money” or “the players are past it” or variations of them, although most have some merit,  have been done completely to death. We all realise where we are. It’d be more interesting to hear thoughts on what we could do to fix it. 

22 hours ago, Scott_M said:

So, in summary, we should have spent more money when we were on top?

 

I don’t necessarily disagree, isn’t that way too simplistic?

 

Also, apart from Mo, we have replaced the whole forward line and we have Konate at a good age at the back. 
 

I get the point on midfield, I really do. However, for example, look at Xhaka. Completely finished at Arsenal and has come back this season and is his best ever form for them. Both players are 29/30. Do we think Xhaka is a better player than Fabinho or that Fabinho can’t resurrect his form like Xhaka? 

Or Luke Shaw. Do we think he’s a better player than Robbo or TAA? 
 

IMO, VVD can still have a career at the top level like Ramos or Thiago Silva. Varane was poor last season, he’s been decent this season. 

 

Like what Arsenal & Newcastle have done, get some more mobile, willing runners & quality footballers in the side (for example, we all expect Bellingham will be a better quality footballer than Hendo etc) and I don’t think all is lost with this squad.

 

As I said above, I’m not saying everything is great, Klopp has some very difficult and very important decisions to make this summer. Being blunt, his job likely relies on him getting the vast majority right. 

 

I think the point I’m making is that there is evidence inferior players, with inferior squads and inferior coaches to our current first team set up have resurrected themselves from worse positions we currently find ourselves in. 

Yes we should have strengthened from a position of strength. That is how we,and United,dominated for so long. We've sat on our laurels for way too long and this season is what happens. We have some excellent players ready to step up but we have some gaping holes too.

2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

You’re completely right on the players ages into the start of next season. Nobody is disputing that or that we have let the players grow old together.  
 

My point is, if we get things right in the summer, how many of those players are going to be starting regularly? 

 

I’d suggest only Alisson, VVD, maybe Fabinho and Salah.

 

We agree that age shouldn’t be a factor with Alisson. I don’t think VVD & Salah will have gone from the best players in the world / ever played for the club to dramatically falling off a cliff. They can get it back (especially the way Mo takes care of himself). Also, if we aren’t in the CL, their schedule becomes clearer.

 

IMO, Fabinho is the biggest worry. I think I put in the transfer thread, if we get willing runners around him, could he recapture his old self? There is evidence that in players like Xhaka, that players can get their best form back. 

 

Then if we’re using Hendo or Thiago more fleetingly, that’s fine.

 

Just because players hit 30, doesn’t need they need to be completely binned. There is absolutely still a place for them in the squad. In the summer, we need to make sure we get our signings (and sales) spot on so we’re not getting ourselves into this position again in future. 
 

Not a dig at you, posts of “We don’t spend enough money” or “the players are past it” or variations of them, although most have some merit,  have been done completely to death. We all realise where we are. It’d be more interesting to hear thoughts on what we could do to fix it. 

I think most of us have pretty sound opinions on what needs to be done to fix it.

For me it is:

Bin bag the permacrocks - players who can't be relied on to be available enough are no use to use.

Add legs, mobility and physicality to our midfield.

Improve our ability to rest and rotate and have stronger benches...but at same time have some consistency and cohesion in there by not being forced into mass changes every game because of fragile, unreliable players.

No longer relying on ageing players to play every game - Like not asking Hendo for example to play 2 games a week - he takes up a role a bit similar to what Milner has held over last couple of years or so.

Bring the average age of squad down.

Personally in the summer i'd do this:

Out:

Milner

Thiago

Oxlade

Keita

Firmino (i'd jave kept him but he is going so listing him)

Phillips

In:

3 midfielders (2 of which are bought as top drawer starters, the other 1 being a solid squad option - ready to play his share and without seeing a big drop off in quality)

1 centre half - the player seen as long term partner for Konate once VVD is done - but someone who could step in and be sound now too. 

A youngish highly rated right sided forward - a potential heir to Salah in 12 months or so.

Personally i believe (not saying it is what i want, i just think and have said so for ages on here) that Salah will go in the summer - which of course then means we would need a replacement and will have a knock on effect to the overall rebuild. It may mean something like keeping one of the midfielders on my 'out' list.

3 hours ago, Trumo said:

 

Where were we hiding the second (and younger) Matip in 2020/21? Could have done with him instead of shoehorning Fab and Hendo in.

In news that will shock nobody - here are his PL stats for that season:

Squad: 10, Starting eleven: 9, Substituted in: 1, On the bench: 0, Suspended: 0, Injured: 27

First of all, those posters saying they hope Klopp will bin the 4-3-3 (permanently) are basically saying they want rid of Klopp. While he's a believer in flexibility in how we attack, he's absolutely going to set up in a manner defensively where this is the base. It allows us to cut out passing lanes and win back the ball much more effectively than the other variations people want us to employ.

I'm not thrilled with Klopp over the last year either, but I still believe he can turn this around. Unfortunately, the sceptics and critics (media, other club's supporters) have got one thing right. The brand of football Jürgen wants to play is extremely taxing, and accumulated fatigue is a real thing in sports. Those players putting everything on the line for the last 3-7 seasons are visibly wearing that toll on their bodies, and probably in their heads as well. It seems obvious now that the squad should have been refreshed sooner, but 11 months ago we were 2 goals from doing the quadruple, so those shouting for change back then were obviously shouted back down. Looking back, the results were probably a bit better than the performances, but most of us kept believing we could do it again this year.

Going forward I agree with most on here that tough decisions need to be made, and while I normally don't agree much with Stringvest, I think he's right in that Klopp needs to shift the players that (although their words are different) seem not to believe in the system or manager's words as much as they used to. There are a lot of places up for grabs in a "1st eleven" next year. That being said, we'll probably see all of these starting our 1st game in August.

---------------------Allison--------------------------

--xxxxxx--------Konate-----xxxxxxxxx-------Robbo----

------------------- xxxxxxxxxxx--------------------------

-------xxxxxxxxxxx--------------Thiago---------------     

----Salah------------Gakpo-----------------Diaz-----                 

Van Dijk

Henderson

Fabinho

Trent

Those are my four biggest worries (I think Gakpo might come really good given a full pre-season and more tactical instruction) for next year. I listened to the pod-cast from the Chelsea game earlier today and while I agree that there are some mental/tactical/positional issues for Virgil, the main thing is he's not trusting his body to do the stuff he used to. He's also (at least) a yard slower than he was, meaning he won't commit to situations where he'll get done for pace. He was THE best centerback I've ever seen for a couple of seasons before that attack from Pickford. Now he's not very suited to how we want to play. Weaker in the air (especially attacking set pieces), much slower in the turn (dropping back when he should be holding/setting the line), and generally much more passive in his defending. I would entertain offers on him, as I think his knee (and subsequently his head) is in a much worse place than what he lets on.

Henderson isn't good enough to be a starting midfielder in a team that is challenging for the title. He just isn't. He probably never was, but when all parts of our system were functioning perfectly with a rock solid defence and the best front three in world football, he was a sufficient cog in that machine. I'm not trying to diminish his contributions to the cause, as he's brought mentality, leadership and intense energy to that team, and as such has been a valuable component. Now that we've lost two-thirds of that front three, and Salah seems to be losing some of his magic, we need magic in midfield instead. Whatever you think of Nunez, Gakpo or Diaz and the current versions of Salah and Jota, they aren't on the same level as Mane-Firmino-Salah neither in terms of attacking nor defensive contributions. Hence Henderson needing to be out of the team. Big question to who carries on the mental/leadership qualities, but we need better footballers with the same type of qualities as Hendo has displayed.

Fabinho is a tough one for me. I love his reading of the game and the way he plays the DM role. His tactical awareness and ability to avoid yellow cards and fouling people high up the pitch is priceless and is an art that is seldom mastered. His lack of legs has really shown up this season though, and while he's seemed extremely slow and gangly himself, a lot of that is down to us not being as compact as the coaches want us to be.. I'd probably start him in the DM role next year as well, and hope he's just been suffering from long covid or something. He's probably good enough if we get our front three to press well and the defence to stay with the high line. If not, Bajcetic should be given the job with Fabinho as a mentor.

Trent is probably our biggest long-term concern, as the others are towards the end of their careers anyway. I think he needs to slim down considerably if he's going to keep playing RB for us. He's too bulky, and his legs aren't moving quick enough to keep up with the sort of blistering attackers he'll have to face on occasion. He's been ridiculed by Vinicius, Khvaratskelia, Mitoma, Martinelli and several others the last year. He'll try to grab them with his arms rather than let his feet move, a clear sign that he doesn't trust himself to keep up with them. He'll probably benefit from Bellingham (hopefully), Konate and whoever plays DM babysitting him a bit more, but if he shows up out-of-shape in August, Connor Bradley or Ramsay should be given a chance to see what they can do.

There are a lot of questionmarks over Thiago (fitness), Diaz (post-injury), Gakpo (role familiarity) and Salah (form) as well. I think all those players will give what they have and are good enough footballers to turn it around though.

Nunez (not a good fit either attacking or especially pressing/defensively)

Jota (only as a sub for me)

Elliott (not a perfect role for him in 4-3-3, exposes Trent, maybe another RB?)

Carvalho (can he be moulded to an 8?)

All these players are mediocre fits for us, but probably won't be sold. How do we keep them relevant and valuable to the squad?

Anyway, we need a really good transfer window, and for Klopp to take the right decisions going forward.

https://www.skysports.com/share/12852481
 

Right. 
 

“Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp has insisted that neither he, nor his players, are any worse than last year, despite poor results this season.”

Seriously pissed with Klopp. That selection at Chelsea was all about numbers, nothing to do with the shite served up at Bournemouth and City. Trent Virgil and Mo don't deserve to start this game, it's not a real squad when players are guaranteed a place. The dynamic can't work and you end up with this.

On 08/04/2023 at 12:51, DJLJ said:

https://www.skysports.com/share/12852481
 

Right. 
 

“Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp has insisted that neither he, nor his players, are any worse than last year, despite poor results this season.”

someone might want to point him at the league table.

The players don't look prepared for games.  

The old saying contends that you either sell the team, or replace the manager. Well, it's hard to believe that an entire squad has turned shit in one summer.  Something's changed that's affected all of them, and the manager usually says that the players, en masse, don't do what he tells them to. 

Same mistakes game in game out. That second goal today was surprising in how acutely amateurish it was, even by this seasons standards.   

3 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

The players don't look prepared for games.  

The old saying contends that you either sell the team, or replace the manager. Well, it's hard to believe that an entire squad has turned shit in one summer.  Something's changed that's affected all of them, and the manager usually says that the players, en masse, don't do what he tells them to. 

 

Same mistakes game in game out. That second goal today was surprising in how acutely amateurish it was, even by this seasons standards.   

Do you still want Diaz in midfield and Alisson sold, you mad bastard.

35 minutes ago, John102 said:

 

Do you still want Diaz in midfield and Alisson sold, you mad bastard.

Yes to the first.

Yes to the second if a big offer came in. Don't think it will.  

I wish Bournemouth and United at home and Leeds away were though.