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"Should we persist with three at the back?"

    Brendan Rodgers' recent switch to a 3-4-1-2 system has had mixed results, with 2 wins, a draw and a defeat. Luis Suarez and Daniel Sturridge are thriving, it's opened up an extra spot for one of the abundance of centre backs available, but the midfield has suffered and Victor Moses looks like a fish out of water. So, is it time to revert back to a more familiar system? Three of TLW's finest share their thoughts...

Let me start by saying that I’ve never been fundamentally opposed to playing three at the back.  I also appreciate the fact that our current squad of players suits the shape because we have an abundance of centre halves and a strike partnership which is possibly the envy of the league so in that sense it seems to tick all the right boxes. So why am I so concerned? 
 
Well my main observation of this formation is that it seems to be more suitable to a counter attacking style.  We all know that Brendan Rodgers wants the team to play with an attacking mentality and to press the ball.  To make that style effective you need to win the ball back quickly but that’s hard to do in this shape because the opposition always has an ‘out ball’ to either full back.  We find that rather than being able to aggressively press the ball as Rodgers demands, instead we are chasing the ball and there is a fundamental difference between the two.  
 
When a team is pressing effectively, it almost appears as if they are ‘hunting in packs’ to get the ball back.  That just isn’t happening with this formation because of the ease in which the opposition can move the ball due to the space on the sides.  When your opponent manages to keep the ball and move it from side to side, the natural reaction is to drop deeper to cover the space.  This only exacerbates the problem because when you do manage to win the ball back you are starting from a deep position and have already been set in your defensive shape for a certain amount of time.  That makes the transition from defence into attack harder and you find that the ball is given away easier than would normally be the case.
 
I’m sure that the players would learn to adapt and improve the more games they played in this shape but there is no way of preventing teams from having that ‘out ball’ and I also don’t think that we have the luxury of time.  Sure, we’ve had a good start to the season but we have the fixture computer to thank for that to a degree and our games are about to get tougher.
 
In the modern game the best teams play with inverted wide players who are designed to receive the ball and cut inside, opening up space for an over-lapping full back.  If you only have one player down the side then that becomes hard to control and again you find yourself chasing the ball and dropping deeper.
 
With the 4-3-3 shape (or whichever variation you wish you allude to) there is more of a man-to-man make up which promotes fierce pressing and allows you to win the ball back higher up the pitch.
 

It’s obviously not as simple as that because there are all kinds of variables involved during a football match but my eyes continue to tell me that there’s a reason why not many teams set their team to play up the way we currently are.

 

Ian Brown

 


 

I’d stick with it in principle, but we need to work on two key issues which continue to cost us goals. I’m a patient man but there are several things concerning me that this system doesn’t cover up our weaknesses quite as much as I first hoped.

 

Firstly, we keep conceding goals from set pieces. It keeps kicking us in the balls and off the top of my head I can think of four goals, two costing us points (Newcastle away, Southampton at home) and one (United) knocking us out of the Carling Cup. It is a severe impediment to the progress we’re making, because further up the pitch we seem to have developed far more of a ruthless streak but keep conceding soft, needless goals from free kicks.

 

The second goal at Newcastle was particularly hard to stomach – firstly because it was scored by a no-mark substitute who we’ll no doubt never hear of again and secondly because it was so avoidable. It was just a percentage lump into the box that we totally failed to deal with – a typical Liverpool goal to donate to opposition in need.

 

With three centre halves on the pitch we simply shouldn’t be giving goals like that away – but we are, continue to do so and it continues to absolutely kill us.

 

Secondly, we need to smarten up in midfield. Cabaye’s goal on Saturday was another example of the midfield surrendering too much room. Someone has to close him down before he shoots. If midfield can’t, one of the centre halves has to push up slightly and stop him getting the shot away. Midfield for me is a bigger issue than the three at the back because I still think it’s too easy for teams to get through us at the moment.

 

Ultimately the system is still in its infancy and we need to be patient. We’re scoring plenty of goals and we look reasonably solid until someone gets a corner or a free kick. That’s the biggest issue. We definitely need work in midfield but that has been the case for 18 months. That, for me, requires work in the transfer market but we have to make do with what we have for now.

 

It would be foolish to rip it up and start again. Is it the long term solution? I don’t know. But we’re scoring plenty of goals with it – we just need to wise up and I’m sure it will be a successful long term switch.

 

Dan Thomas

 


 

I've pretty much always hated three at the back. To me, it was a "paper over the cracks" formation that tried to address defensive weaknesses in a cack-handed way and ultimately impeded attacking football because it was frequently as unresponsive to opposing formations as a staid old 442.

 

However, as I wrote in the last edition of the fanzine, this 3-4-1-2 has really captured my imagination. It quite clearly suits our current squad brilliantly as we have: an abundance of centre halves; two players in Johnson and Enrique who have the ability and stamina to play up and down their entire flank for the full 90 minutes; the best striking partnership in the country; and a young No. 10 with the potential to be as good as anyone in the league.

 

Furthermore, the way Rodgers wants to play with this system encourages fluidity all over the pitch as centre halves step up, across or forward to fill gaps, centre mids compress the play further forward and full backs pull opposing defences wide to create space in the middle within which Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho can create mayhem.

 

So then why the antipathy from so many Reds? For me, I think we've become too jittery as fans; too "now, now, now". No doubt this system has had some teething problems, not least in central midfield where gaps have appeared defensively and also behind the front two where, in Moses, we've been using a player without the skills or nous to unlock opposing defences from tight spaces (hardly alone there, is he?). However, wasn't it always going to be wobbly to start with?

 

At the time of writing, this system is four - yes, four! - matches old and yet the horses are well and truly scared. Let's remember that we remain a hugely transitional team which underwent further major squad surgery in the summer. We also still have a couple of obvious gaps to plug in the first eleven and retain a bench sorely lacking in game-changing players, so let's not attribute all our relative ills to a nascent idea that has had little or no chance to bear fruit.

 

The reaction of many fans to mere moments of disappointment within matches, never mind disappointing results (of which there have been few in the context of where we ended last season and where we find ourselves now) is completely OTT in my view; let's afford our manager a little bit of trust and see where his experiment goes - at least until he can use with his strongest eleven players. The implementation of change in any organisation takes time and football is no different. If it was all so easy, then players wouldn't even bother training; they'd just turn up on match day and play.

 

No, this system has the potential to be a thing of brilliance that bamboozles opposing sides with intelligent, fluid football full of goals and aggression. Can we at least wait until we've given it a couple of matches with our first choice eleven before we claim it's not working? I remain fully open to the possibility that it might fall flat on its face, but in the meantime, I'm going to sit back and admire the courage of a manager who is genuinely trying to innovate, not to mention enjoy the tantalising anticipation of brilliant attacking football. 

 

Paul Natton


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Why would people want Johnson and Enrique in midfield, seeing as they are not very good at it?

 

Why not play actual attacking players in midfield instead or even midfielders for that sake?

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3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs.  I don't think there's a case for it when many teams are playing with one forward.  I'd rather us play with 2 CBs, and let the full backs play as full backs.  There's nothing stopping them rampaging up the flanks if we have solid and mobile CB and DM.  Johnson aside, our full backs are just not equipped mentally or technically to play a true wing back game.  

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3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs.  

 

It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

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If we had 4 at the back the fullback would have covered Cazorla for Arsenals first goal or at least challenged him.

 

We had no one there though as all our CB's ahd been dragged into the middle and Flanno was in midfield.

 

Terrible, just terrible.

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3-5-2 is only being used to accommodate our centre backs. I don't think there's a case for it when many teams are playing with one forward. I'd rather us play with 2 CBs, and let the full backs play as full backs. There's nothing stopping them rampaging up the flanks if we have solid and mobile CB and DM. Johnson aside, our full backs are just not equipped mentally or technically to play a true wing back game.

I think Enrique is a natural wing back as well. I think if he played for a CL team and we were linked with him we'd cream ourselves.

 

I don't think Lucas is the problem, I think it's his two midfield partners who leave him exposed time and time again.

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It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

 

there is nothing stopping that scenario with a back four.  

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I think Enrique is a natural wing back as well. I think if he played for a CL team and we were linked with him we'd cream ourselves.

 

I don't think Lucas is the problem, I think it's his two midfield partners who leave him exposed time and time again.

 

Lucas is at least as culpable as those two.  The other midfielders are not there exclusively to shield or cover Lucas.  They are also supposed to contribute going forward, press high and link the play.  Lucas has no such responsibility.  His is to position himself correctly, read and anticipate the play, and intercept the ball or the runner.  Saturday's game was not a great example, as were outnumbered in midfield, and almost every player in a red shirt was off his game.  But WBA apart, I have not seen a game where the 3-5-2 has looked coherent or convincing. 

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The problem that people forget is that we don't have any wingers, so playing a system with wingers or wide attackers is nuts.

 

Sterling, Ibe, Moses. Not exactly a frightening prospect for the opposition is it. We have to use our strengths, and our strengths are in defence and up front, and that we can play with wing backs to give us width. The players in the middle need only do the basics and we should beat teams. If they don't do the basics well, like keep the ball and keep an eye on the midfield when they break, then you have to question why we're persisting with them.

 

Gerrard is undroppable because of his status. It doesn't matter if he's the best long-ranger passer in the team, or the best penalty take, or the person with most international caps, it just doesn't matter if he doesn't do the basics in the middle of the park. But it's not his fault, it's not even Rodgers' fault, he would get castigated by the press and the fans if he dropped Gerrard. What sort of conditions are they for a manager to work under??

 

"You can pick any side you want, as long as Gerrard is centre mid".

 

Umm, it's sort of fucking important that there is a balance to the side and right now we don't have it. We had it in 2009, but that's four years ago now. It's unfair for people to have the same expectations on Gerrard now as they had then. Christ, even back then it was different because he mostly played behind the striker, and he had Alonso to rely on, with Mascherano as well.

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I don't know where this 'Gerrard cannot be dropped and must play centre midfield' speculation has come from, but it seems to have turned into a fact.  

 

Given what we have in the way of resources, against Fulham I would play Allen and Henderson in CM, with Gerrard on the right and Coutinho on the left.  

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It is also being used to get the best out of Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez as all can play central, even though we haven't played it with all three together yet. 

 

4-3-1-2 would also play to Suarez, Coutinho, and Sturridge's strengths...and it would add more balance to the midfield.

 

5 at the back is bullshit and almost 40 years of watching footy has not convinced me otherwise. Not even remotely.

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3-5-2/5-3-2 can work well (didn't Kenny play five at the back in the first game against Chelsea after Torres left?), but only if you've got the right wingbacks and the CBs work in a cohesive manner with the DM. We're just not looking well drilled enough for it. 

 

Two CBs who know how to position in accordance to one another, and will take responsibility, is infinitely preferable to three CBs unsure who's supposed to do what.

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Guest Numero Veinticinco

Posted

4-3-1-2

 

-Back four

-No wingers

-Can play our best three attacking players

Yep. I was advocating that variant of 433 myself last week. It's not all that different to what we saw last year, with Coutinho drifting inside at every opportunity.

 

I'll be very dissappointed if we start with five defenders against Fulham. Yes, the two fullbacks are pushed forward, by they were in a four, too.

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I agree with the 4-3-1-2 but tge midfield will still be shite.

Gerrard and Lucas isnt a effective partnership imo.If you drop Henderson we will lack any energy in the mifield, nit thst a player should be in the team due to that. Lucas is looking slower than he did pre injury and he just hasn't been as effective. Too many times Arsenal just walked the ball through the midfield unapossed as the pair of them just sat off then one pass completely cut them out the game as they look far too flat footed.

We wont play many better footballing midfields but past Liverpool midfields with the likes of Alonso, Macherano and Momo would have eaten them alive by getting in there faces.

Personally I think its time Gerrard was used either as a attacking midfielder in the basic three of a 433 abd only deeper in games were we will dominate possession at home to some of the relegation fodder.Without wanting to start a Rafa debate its something I agreed with him on, Gerrsrd isnt a great midfielder in a two.You loose too much of his attacking intent.

Personally I think we need at least two quality midfielders with some pace and power.

I think Lucas needs replaced.

He isnt mobile enough to cover the soace and is still giving away far too msny stupid freekicks.

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I see TK still cant take any criticism of Lucas without it causing a short circuit in his head.

Can anyone remember our midgield 2/3 putting together 2-3 good games on the bounce tjis year?. 

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343?

 

 

-----------------mig-------------------

 

-----Toure------Agger--------Sakho-----

 

Johnson----Allen-----Lucas-------Enrique

 

--Sturridge----Suarez-----Coutinho-----

 

 

I think that we need to go on the front foot, this is how we're going to pick up points between now and January, at which point we can shop for a proper fucking midfielder.

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