PODCAST: Liverpool 3 Nottingham Forest 2 - Match Reaction

I think Jota expected it to be overturned because Gapko looked in an offside position when the ball was crossed.

Great listen, as always!

Just on the pressing thing. Pressing isn't just about workrate. Peter Crouch had tremendous workrate while he was with us, but he was probably the poorest candidate for pressing in world football. Many people over the years hit out at Origi for being lazy, when in fact he never really learned how and when to press, as well as being pretty badly physically equipped for it; centre of gravity too high, and poor side-to-side movement (disclaimer: he might have been lazy as well, but I doubt Klopp would have stood by him for so long if he didn't put the effort in).

It's a bit of the same with Darwin for me. Should he learn HOW and WHEN to set the press(the language thing is a bit ominous), he won't necessarily be very good at parts of it still. He's rapid when running in straight lines, but his side-to-side movement isn't great, and his centre of gravity is a bit too high for someone looking to win the ball back. I know a few members of the pod love Henderson and the energy he brings, but he's a bit of the same. Compare him to Thiago (or even Keita - yeah I know), and he very rarely wins the ball for us. Mane and Firmino regularly won the ball for us in the attacking third, and were near the top of the list for attackers regaining possession year on end. Seeing as our central attacker is usually the one setting the press, I think Gakpo (or even Jota) will be the one leading the line for us when playing 4-3-3. They are both much better at getting a foot in and stealing the ball, as well as more tactically astute (at least for now) than Darwin. Salah was our "weakest link" in terms of pressing when him, Firmino and Mane were getting multiple turnovers close to the opposition goal game after game. We can't afford to have one more "weak link" there now. I actually doubt we'll ever see Salah and Nunez as regulars in the same front three unless one of them get substantially better at pressing, and let's be honest, as long as Salah is here he'll play (at least nearly) every game. 

Unless we're unsure of how Diaz' health holds up, I would actually look to move Darwin on (not aggressively, but listening to offers). I really like him, but bar Klopp drastically changing the way he plays (he won't), I doubt he'll ever be first choice for us. He has enough of a Youtube highlights reel for a club to give us silly money for him, though. Put it towards a longterm Salah replacement, or a Jota upgrade. I think this will be our first choice for the foreseeable;  Diaz - Gakpo - Salah. When Salah moves on or his performances really suffer, we need to have his replacement ready, as none of our current attackers (bar maybe Doak) can play that role effectively.

That was a great post until you said you would be looking to move Darwin on so now I'm looking to move you onto another forum!

Seriously though, lots of good stuff.

On Hendo and pressing, I don't think the stats do justice to what he does. I always see stats saying he won 0 tackles and didn't have any ball retrievals or whatever its referred to. A lot of the time it isn't him nicking it but he's the one who applied pressure that caused a slack pass or allowed someone else to nick it. If he was as bad as the tackling stats suggest he'd never have survived in a Klopp team.

Thiago is much better at winning tackles and Keita is great at getting a foot in and nicking the ball. Hendo does things differently, but he's still effective. Not as effective as he was, obviously.

3 hours ago, Shooter in the Motor said:

I think Jota expected it to be overturned because Gapko looked in an offside position when the ball was crossed.

Jota has no idea where Gakpo is though as his back is to him the whole time, so I don't think it's that.

6 minutes ago, dave u said:

That was a great post until you said you would be looking to move Darwin on so now I'm looking to move you onto another forum!

 

Seriously though, lots of good stuff.

 

On Hendo and pressing, I don't think the stats do justice to what he does. I always see stats saying he won 0 tackles and didn't have any ball retrievals or whatever its referred to. A lot of the time it isn't him nicking it but he's the one who applied pressure that caused a slack pass or allowed someone else to nick it. If he was as bad as the tackling stats suggest he'd never have survived in a Klopp team.

 

Thiago is much better at winning tackles and Keita is great at getting a foot in and nicking the ball. Hendo does things differently, but he's still effective. Not as effective as he was, obviously.

Ha-ha, I knew the "moving on" would rub you the wrong way. He's too good (and valuable) a footballer to be sitting on the bench, don't you agree? I can see him being perennial 2nd choice to both Gakpo and Diaz though, and I don't think he'll eradicate his weaknesses quickly enough (if it's even possible) to be a factor in Klopp's system. 

There's probably enough threads (and gruff in the match threads) on Hendo, but I don't think we'll come to an agreement here. His playing and pressing style (at least in the past) was always most effective against the better teams where we weren't the ones controlling play. Then he would cause those situations by just hustling and bustling, often in tandem with Firmino and to a lesser degree Salah. He dared to chase high up the pitch, and had bundles of energy. These days his pace (and energy, at least when playing regularly) has mostly gone, so he'll stand off the player with the ball (a bit like Virg since his injury), afraid of getting done 1v1, which leads to gaps around him, and the opposition player with the ball picking passes rather easily. Go back to any game against midfields consisting of small, technical players (think City/Brighton/Real - or even Chelsea), and they just move around him and pass the ball around him at will.

He'll still get ramped up enough for the derbies and Manc games, but as you've repeatedly stated, his body can't sustain 2 games a week. I actually think his inclusion in the team now is more due to the lack of other vocal leaders in the team. For now we need him (or Milner) applying the leadership in terms of a voice as well as visible attitude. 

I can't argue with any of the Hendo stuff there. I'm not giving up on Darwin though, his strengths will eventually become much too great for his weaknesses to matter that much.

20 minutes ago, dave u said:

I can't argue with any of the Hendo stuff there. I'm not giving up on Darwin though, his strengths will eventually become much too great for his weaknesses to matter that much.

Depends on how much you think our pressing (and counterpressing) is linked to our success (and recent failure). We've seen Mo being allowed some freedom, but now that he can't lean on Mane/Firmino, nor peak Hendo/Gini/Fabinho, our pressing and counterpressing has gone to pieces. As Klopp has commented, it's getting better again, notably with Darwin out of the side. I think the system (and manager) is our biggest asset, and when the system doesn't work, we look distinctly average. If Darwin can't adapt (and I don't think he possesses some of the the traits needed to fullfil the requirements from Klopp), his individual goal and assists numbers won't mean that much.

I actually made a few of the same remarks when people were thirsting over Haaland to come here, so it's not that I'm hating on Nunez in particular. Haaland would be equally unsuited to what we want to do defensively. Him playing in this current Liverpool side would lead to the same issues, with the possible exception of putting a few more balls in the opposition net.

Haaland is also unsuited to us because of his face.

I’m sure Darwin was one of those who pressed like mad in the last minute against Leeds when Jurgen did a sex wee.

1 hour ago, bossy said:

I’m sure Darwin was one of those who pressed like mad in the last minute against Leeds when Jurgen did a sex wee.

He was the one who won the ball back and ran away with it. It's not the same as the organised, structural counter press where everyone needs to know where and when to do it. That's what I'm saying about his work rate though, its not a case of him not wanting to do it, it's presumably a case of him not knowing how it's done.

Darwin not being arsed or too thick to learn even a modicum of English has pissed me off no end. He’s been in the country 9 months. 
 

No wonder he can’t make head nor tail of the complex counter press if he doesn’t know what the words complex, counter and press even mean. 

Took Bobby about 7 years before he could hold a conversation in English. He did understand the footy side of it though, so that helps.

I've said similar to you in the diary though about this (haven't posted it up yet) as it's not too much to ask is it?

Dave not mentioning Everton:

If he'd had a normal sized head hahahah

Fabinho has been bad this season but the past month he hasn’t been bad at all.  People just get sucked into repeating the same thing regardless of what’s going on in front of them.  Other than his skied shot he didn’t put a foot wrong all game.  He was sweeping up and getting across to cover Trent plenty of times.  We went to pot when he went off.

We’ve got absolutely no chance of signing Caicedo.  He was on a 3 grand a week 5 year deal.  There was no incentive for Brighton to put a clause in to a new contract.  They’ve clearly just give him more money to keep him happy and stop going on strike but there’s no way they’re also adding a clause in.  Fabinho isn’t going anywhere and he will he be playing 40+ games next season.  He’s already recovered to his old form anyway.  It’s just autopilot slagging him off.  I went home and watched the sky game of the day and he was absolutely fine because I seen people talking shite about it.

Paul’s idea that 2 games against 2 of the worst sides in the league confirms Trent can play there and is absolutely fine defensively etc is comical.  He was crowded out in the Arsenal game in the first half and barely touched the ball.  We struggled defensively and it gave him more excuse to pull his lazy arse behaviour which impacted the goals we conceded.  Funnily enough when he got wide and hit the by line we got the equaliser.

He followed it up by being our best player against Leeds and doing well again against forest.  He still got completely waltzed by in the middle of the pitch like a cone at one point.  Our biggest problem with him is against good sides wherever he plays he’s a defensive liability.  It remains to be seen whether that’s worse in the middle than at right back.

The game today was very similar to lots of games last season.  It’s mad how quickly people forget just how shit we were to watch last season and just getting over the line in so many games.

37 minutes ago, The Guest said:

 

The game today was very similar to lots of games last season.  It’s mad how quickly people forget just how shit we were to watch last season and just getting over the line in so many games.

Definitely, the signs were there straight after us winning the league in 2020.  It seemed to start with losing Gini and not replacing him adequately on any level.  It may have been a coincidence of course but it's hard to ignore, and I'd argue that even before Gini left we should have been future proofing the midfield. We should have sold Keita that summer, before it became inarguable just how bad he was. That was our chance to do something proactive and we blew it.

I think Trent would be a disaster in midfield, watching him watch players waltz past him does not bear thinking about.  He's brilliant from the RB position when he has someone capable of filling the gaps he leaves, we need to fix that problem not create a new one.

1 hour ago, The Guest said:

Fabinho has been bad this season but the past month he hasn’t been bad at all.  People just get sucked into repeating the same thing regardless of what’s going on in front of them.  Other than his skied shot he didn’t put a foot wrong all game.  He was sweeping up and getting across to cover Trent plenty of times.  We went to pot when he went off.

 

We’ve got absolutely no chance of signing Caicedo.  He was on a 3 grand a week 5 year deal.  There was no incentive for Brighton to put a clause in to a new contract.  They’ve clearly just give him more money to keep him happy and stop going on strike but there’s no way they’re also adding a clause in.  Fabinho isn’t going anywhere and he will he be playing 40+ games next season.  He’s already recovered to his old form anyway.  It’s just autopilot slagging him off.  I went home and watched the sky game of the day and he was absolutely fine because I seen people talking shite about it.

 

Paul’s idea that 2 games against 2 of the worst sides in the league confirms Trent can play there and is absolutely fine defensively etc is comical.  He was crowded out in the Arsenal game in the first half and barely touched the ball.  We struggled defensively and it gave him more excuse to pull his lazy arse behaviour which impacted the goals we conceded.  Funnily enough when he got wide and hit the by line we got the equaliser.

 

He followed it up by being our best player against Leeds and doing well again against forest.  He still got completely waltzed by in the middle of the pitch like a cone at one point.  Our biggest problem with him is against good sides wherever he plays he’s a defensive liability.  It remains to be seen whether that’s worse in the middle than at right back.

 

The game today was very similar to lots of games last season.  It’s mad how quickly people forget just how shit we were to watch last season and just getting over the line in so many games.

Fabinho looks to be back to his "new best " which isn't going to be good enough. The Pod was great and got me thinking Declan Rice is who we need. Athletically he's as mobile as anyone I can ever remember, he eats up ground. He would get across and help Konate in an instant. Probably turn him in a back up centre half quite easily too.

Sell Fab and Elliott, a player I really like but his value in terms of a sale looks to be greater than his value to the new look set up. There isn't a spot for him in this team. Rice's contract and Harvey's age would mean we wouldn't be too out of pocket if we done this.

54 minutes ago, Moo said:

 

Definitely, the signs were there straight after us winning the league in 2020.  It seemed to start with losing Gini and not replacing him adequately on any level.  It may have been a coincidence of course but it's hard to ignore, and I'd argue that even before Gini left we should have been future proofing the midfield. We should have sold Keita that summer, before it became inarguable just how bad he was. That was our chance to do something proactive and we blew it.

I think Trent would be a disaster in midfield, watching him watch players waltz past him does not bear thinking about.  He's brilliant from the RB position when he has someone capable of filling the gaps he leaves, we need to fix that problem not create a new one.

 

I think it’s gone past the filling the gaps he leaves.  I honestly never minded him being caught out of position when he’s gone up the pitch and generally still don’t.  Both Brownie and now Dave on this pod have mentioned Trent “bombing on” and overlapping Mo which baffles me to be honest.  We are lucky if he’s overlapped Mo once a game for years now.  He hardly ever gets to the byline which I think is half our issue with creativity and Mo struggling.  He’s never been more “in position” than this season because he hardly moves.
 

The biggest problem is his attitude when we don’t have the ball.  He’s always picking the lazy option.  Whether it’s hidden by him pressing someone 20 yards away from him instead of going with his runner or them ridiculous risky times he tries to cut out the pass instead of staying goal side with the winger.  When it comes off for him it looks good and creates an opportunity but it’s just beyond high risk because it’s hardly ever successful.  It’s just so easy to play around like we’ve seen all season.

When we play against any good side it’s difficult to see us winning because he’s in the team.  At the business end of last season he was the major reason we only limped over the line in the cups and couldn’t hold it together in the champions league final.  Against the shit teams I honestly feel like you could play him anywhere and eventually his quality on the ball will show.  This is going to rumble on for years and I can’t see us winning the 2 major trophies again unless it’s solved.

16 minutes ago, No2 said:

Fabinho looks to be back to his "new best " which isn't going to be good enough. The Pod was great and got me thinking Declan Rice is who we need. Athletically he's as mobile as anyone I can ever remember, he eats up ground. He would get across and help Konate in an instant. Probably turn him in a back up centre half quite easily too.

 

Sell Fab and Elliott, a player I really like but his value in terms of a sale looks to be greater than his value to the new look set up. There isn't a spot for him in this team. Rice's contract and Harvey's age would mean we wouldn't be too out of pocket if we done this.

It’s just not worth selling Fabinho for what it’s going to cost to replace him with someone better.  Considering the problems we have everywhere else it’s pointless.  We would be lucky to get 20m combined for him and Elliott.  I like Rice but it’s easy to get carried away right now because he’s in a really good patch of form and has scored against 2 shit teams.  He’s been poor this season and they would want 100m.

I agree with Paul on this one.  Just fucking sign Bellingham and worry about everything else later.

10 minutes ago, The Guest said:

 

It’s just not worth selling Fabinho for what it’s going to cost to replace him with someone better.  Considering the problems we have everywhere else it’s pointless.  We would be lucky to get 20m combined for him and Elliott. I like Rice but it’s easy to get carried away right now because he’s in a really good patch of form and has scored against 2 shit teams.  He’s been poor this season and they would want 100m.

 

I agree with Paul on this one.  Just fucking sign Bellingham and worry about everything else later.

You're on autopilot yourself there with Harvey. Gibbs White went for 30m, he has had half the career to date that Harvey has had. Elliott is a 50m player in today's stupid market. Fabinho would get 25m, Rice is approaching his final year so 80m/90m gets you Rice. I'd also argue that Fab's position is the most important in the team, fix that one (as we seen briefly with Bacjetic) and other problems go away.

58 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I think it’s gone past the filling the gaps he leaves.  I honestly never minded him being caught out of position when he’s gone up the pitch and generally still don’t.  Both Brownie and now Dave on this pod have mentioned Trent “bombing on” and overlapping Mo which baffles me to be honest.  We are lucky if he’s overlapped Mo once a game for years now.  He hardly ever gets to the byline which I think is half our issue with creativity and Mo struggling.  He’s never been more “in position” than this season because he hardly moves.

I agree, his game appears to have changed a lot, particularly this season.  He barely looks half the player or half the threat he has previously. I think that's mostly because he knows the gaps won't be covered so his game is vastly inhibited. I don't know if he's making that choice himself or it's on instruction.

I'm not yet willing to blame it on laziness and happy to give him the benefit of the doubt until we have a midfield capable of playing their part.  The same goes for Robertson but his drop off is not as obvious and Trent also suffers for his laid-back style of play and how he carries himself.

This may all be moot and we might see a complete change next season.

In this new set up I like the idea of Harvey in the spot that Curtis has been playing. I don't think him being on the right works, especially with the new 'Trent tucked in' tactic. Hendo spends most of his time sprinting over to Mo to either give him an overlap option or to just back him up. Harvey would be no use doing that, but I think he's a good fit for the left side. He would be a squad player rather than a starter though. Also, I could see Curtis in the Hendo spot as an occasional option too.

Ideally we want two new starters in those spots though.

On 23/04/2023 at 16:56, Chris said:

Darwin not being arsed or too thick to learn even a modicum of English has pissed me off no end. He’s been in the country 9 months. 
 

No wonder he can’t make head nor tail of the complex counter press if he doesn’t know what the words complex, counter and press even mean. 

The more I think about it the more Caicedo would be perfect for us. If we could get 20-30 mil for Fab we should take it, if his decline continues then he will be worthless at the end of next season. He has been great for us but his legs have gone. I would also consider Rice, he could be a long term Henderson replacement. I would also like a couple of leftfield signings also, what about Madison or Barella? I would also like to see Gapko behind Darwin, which could be possible for some home games with trent making the extra midfielder, we have so many class forwards we should play to our strengths.