Faustus

I look forward to seeing fans of Lyon, Atalanta and Apollon around town in the coming months with LFC carrier bags in tow, merch'ed up to the eyeballs.

In fairness, only listing ten players does make it look significantly worse...

The murmurings about Klopp were already starting on the train back after Watford. The importance of the internet in shaping fan culture is massively overstated, in my opinion. Hashtags can trend all they like, but it's not much good if the average match going fan isn't even on Twitter, is it? If I had to describe such a person, I'd say mid-50s, virtually zero online presence, reads the Echo and whatever paper takes his fancy for his footy news, watches the usual footy channels on the box. As far as they're concerned, the owners have showed ambition this summer, but Klopp still can't organise a defence. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel it would take H & G level of jeopardy for the tide to turn.

I also agree with you, Brownie, regarding your comment about Klopp's future. On the train home yesterday, the same murmurings were beginning among supporters. If we have a poor start or even, heaven forbid, get knocked out by Hoffenheim, they'll only increase. Especially if he pushes his luck and has his usual pop at the fans. Personally, he gets the full length of his contract for me, barring an absolute catastrophe, as I feel he's the best option for the club and can have us punching above our weight consistently under these mingebag owners. Fans are fickle though and having heard grumbles in January time ("Getting away with murder" was one comment I overheard at half time during the Wolves game) have played some scintillating stuff the previous couple of months, they'll only increase if things are looking shaky on the pitch. I feel as though the fans ire is being directed at the wrong target in this case, so it's all the more frustrating for me when the fella clearly isn't helping himself when it comes to basic stuff like set pieces. You may as well be loading the bullets yourself for these people.

Exactly, Brownie. I'm very concerned that we have another Bournemouth in us. Our in game management and organisation at set pieces is non-existent. It's not even Sunday League standard because I've genuinely seen teams at that level shut down a game and protect a one goal lead far better than us. The issue with the set pieces is so fucking glaring and so easy to rectify at the same time. There's a reason why new managers go into a job and immediately focus on tightening things at the back because it's a solid base to build from and the easiest thing to instil after a couple of sessions. You hear of how Tony Pulis' training sessions are absolutely brutal in how repetitive they are, but Christ, do we need something like that. One day, Klopp and the coaches getting the cones out and going 'we are not leaving until we nail this'. I genuinely don't get it. Is it the manager being too clever for his good? Is it because of the player's egos (who'd presumably get the hump at being forced to do something so basic)? There's an acceptance that we'll concede the odd goal down to systemic deficiencies on account of how expansive we play and that consequently makes it all the more frustrating that we appear to neglect the one area where we have total control over the situation. It's at the stage now where not even good deliveries into the box are causing issues. The ball in for Watford's third was garbage and shouldn't have even got past the first man. It reminded me of Benteke's second against us last season, where the corner itself was utterly shite yet somehow managed to get past the first man and even bounced in the six yard box before it fell to him. Just how is this being allowed to happen? For all the shit that Mourinho takes (rightfully so in a number of areas), but I think he has it sussed in packing the side full of grocks, especially in this league. We seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel while ignoring the inarguable fundamentals of the game.

For all the comments about the owners- which I agree with for the most part- they're not the ones at the training ground helping us defend set pieces, are they? I love Klopp, but this is bordering on negligence.

Dirty Grandpa. A genuinely horrific film. People I know who had seen it were telling me how awful it was. I had no intention of ever watching it until one Sunday night when I was in the mood for something light that didn't require too much thought. It came up on Netflix and I thought 'it can't be that bad, can it?' Wrong. I think I lasted about forty minutes before I turned it off. I'm under no illusion that Robert de Niro has made some utter shite in recent years, but it's something I've been pretty ambivalent about it. I've kind of had the attitude that he obviously enjoys working and has bills to pay, plus most of those films have been benign. In essence, there was never a chance of him sullying his own legacy. Dirty Grandpa actually made me revise that opinion. The film is the Raging Bull of irredeemable garbage.

Rightly or wrongly, Section, I think he has that much faith in his ability as a coach. I think he views what goes on on the training ground to be his primary remit as a manager; improving players, bringing through kids, asserting a distinctive style of play. Obviously this is a pretty important aspect of management but as the old adage goes, you can't polish a turd no matter how much you try. That piece on him in The Times back in Jan sort of set alarm bells ringing for me, when he was talking about being a youth coach and he wasn't arsed about bringing in new players when the board asked him how he'd like to sign, indicating that he was more than happy to work with what he had. I think he'd obviously like to sign Van Dijk, for instance, but I also think that if a deal failed, he'd simply shrug his shoulders and get on with what he had. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's just the way I see it. I actually think Conte has the balance spot on in this respect. He's clearly improved what he's had at his disposal, but he's also recognised the need for signings in problem areas.

I personally labelling Gini as average is a bit harsh. I'd like to see him assert himself on a game more, but when we play, he usually does. I think he knits things together well and has a good engine on him, which is pretty integral when you're playing centre mid in a Klopp team. He's shown himself to be pretty intelligent as well; the way he times his runs late into the box. It's a pretty handy skill for a midfielder to have and while I obviously wouldn't put him in the same class as these, but Scholes and, in particular, Lampard made careers out of that ability. Also showed he has a knack for getting goals in big games: Chelsea, City, Arsenal. His goal v Boro right on the strike of half time when the fans were starting to get anxious was similarly massive. Hopefully that away day hoodoo comes to an end at Vicarage Road next week. A good, solid signing in my book.

I fucking love the Rev's positivity; he's ace!

Could have been a significantly better draw, but on the flip side you can imagine them saying the same about getting us. Second leg at Anfield is a big plus.

See, this thread is what does my head in about a lot of our fanbase; this nonchalant 4chan-esque cynicism that seems to permeate every single discourse. It's not even exclusive to the internet, but it's this seemingly casual aloofness that actually takes a lot of work to maintain. I just find it fucking boring; like a perpetual Four Yorkshireman sketch in action that's ceased to be funny. Being involved in academia in relation to literature and film, it's something I've noticed there; how everything is apparently shit, and people crawl over broken glass to proclaim it so. From that, I can only assume it's an attitude that's somehow acceptable now. I actually love meeting people who are passionate about stuff and unashamedly so, even if whatever it is they're into isn't my cup of tea. I just find it refreshing. Don't get me wrong, I can only echo a lot of the 'modern football is shit' thread and I even nod about a lot of the gripes about the behind the scenes stuff on this thread, but it all boils down to that 90 minutes, doesn't it? There's a purity about it and that's what grabs you. It's what dug its claws into you as a kid and it's what continues to gnaw at you. It's inescapable. When you stop finding yourself interested in that- actually just watching it as a spectacle- that's when it's probably time to check out. Yeah, I fucking love Liverpool. For all the shite, I genuinely think supporting them has enriched my life. There are ace people I know who I know I wouldn't have met if it wasn't for a mutual interest in Liverpool. A lad I count as one of my best friends, I was asked at a mutual mate's wedding a few years back if I wouldn't mind hanging around with him as he didn't know anybody there and was given the selling point by the groom, "he likes a bev and he loves the reds." Good enough for me. The ups and downs results-wise I feel has shaped me also, to never get too down and even to take a win with a pinch of salt; everything comes in waves and you have to go with it. I'd also say Bill Shankly is one of my inspirations. Just a fucking great man with a phenomenal attitude. His line about equating his football philosophy and socialism is fucking beautiful, as is his comment about if he were a road sweeper he'd want his roads to be the cleanest in the city. Even take them out of the context of football, they're sentiments I try to live my life by. Even with family members, there are some I have absolutely fuck all in common with aside from Liverpool, so it's the go-to point of conversation. I loved the Rev's comment on the previous page about how he loves watching the games with his lad, and that's what's it about for me: that sense of community, that mutual bonding that very little else can give you. Last season, one of my favourite moments was going to the Arsenal game at Anfield last season. As it was a late game, my mate belled us saying that he and his missus managed to get tickets and asked if I fancied a pint and a scran before the game. Had a few jars in the Excelsior in town and a boss meal in there, the teams came through on my mate's blower along with the comment 'reeks of a Liverpool win this'. After the game, met up again for a beer, absolutely buzzing off the result and each other's company. Just one of those occasions when everything falls into place and you think to yourself, 'this is fucking class'. Yeah, put aside all the off pitch stuff, all the snide comments and the 'too cool for school' attitude, all the commercialised bollocks that I can rant with the best of, if you strip it down, I'm just left with the sentiments that I love football and I love Liverpool.

Ha ha! For the record, I'd just like to say that the old man loves Klopp, just in case the assumption was there that I was grouping him in with the Wolves crowd I mentioned! I was more using his engagement with football and the media as a representative tool for much of the older fanbase.

For me, it'll be on the owners if this summer is a complete failure. No doubt Klopp wants to strengthen the squad but one doubt I do have about him is that I feel he may be similar to Wenger to an extent in regard to a stubbornness concerning the players at his disposal. That article from The Times back in January set some alarm bells ringing in this particular field for me, when he refused an intake of new players to continue working with what he had. Don't me wrong, I think this incredibly admirable and there's no doubt that a great many of our players have improved working with him, but you can only go so far with this approach as you'll inevitably have some players revert back to their previous levels or the same old faults in a team's play will resurfaces when glaring errors have failed to be addressed . At the same time, I wouldn't want a chequebook manager as it's a completely unsustainable approach, but I think somebody like Conte has the right balance between the methods of operating. Players have improved under his coaching, but at the same time he's recognised the need to strengthen with the additional workload that Europe brings. I fucking love Klopp and he's about the only person at the club on the non-playing side of things isn't shite. As far as I'm concerned, he gets the full length of his contract with us as long as something catastrophic happens, mainly because I don't think there's anybody better than him that we could reasonably attract, and I don't think anybody else could over-perform as he has with such a threadbare and unbalanced squad. In a way, I think FSG have their ideal man: He's happy to develop young players, doesn't believe that the transfer market solves everything, and won't really kick up a fuss if there are cock ups because he believes everything is ultimately down to what happens at the training ground. In a way, I think he's optimistic to a fault because if we go into this season as we are, for example, I think he'd see it as a challenge he'd relish getting stuck into. Going back to the point about finding a balance, I've also heard murmurings about how Rafa would hold the owners to account, which I think it's a bit of an unfair comparison. For one, I think the situations with the respective owners are completely different, but again, it's also down to methodology. Rafa's approach was very well known in that the players were chess pieces. With Klopp, man-management as a means of exacting that improvement is arguably his strong point. Again, there's no right or wrong, it's all about striking a balance because you could argue that both have their flaws. History certainly shows they do. Personally, I certainly wouldn't want Klopp going nuclear on the owners, but some gentle cajoling like we've seen from Conte, Guardiola and Mourinho this summer wouldn't go amiss. Saying all of that, I'm not sure the fans would see it that way. What you have to remember is that our match-going fanbase is pretty old and as such, I'd say the importance of fans sites is overstated. I'd say my old man is pretty typical of our match-going local fan- mid-50s, goes the match, watches football on the telly, reads the footy news in the Echo. His engagement with blogs, podcasts and the like is nil. For this class of people, it's a case of what you see in front of it represents the entire picture. There's no doubt in my mind that if we were to start poorly, Klopp would be the one to get it in the neck from the match-going fans as opposed to FSG. It'd be a case of 'the club couldn't have done anymore with Keita and Van Dijk', with little acknowledgement for the shenanigans FSG pulled in getting to this stage. At the Wolves game in the cup last season, it was a joke at half-time because I was having a piss and all I heard around me was old fellas going, "He's getting away with murder this Klopp fella blah blah blah." Once that sentiment is out of the bottle after the honeymoon period, it's never too far from the surface.

Oh no, I'm not saying we are, Jockey mate. Van Dijk, for instance, what went on there was I'd imagine no different to what goes on anywhere else. Away on international duty, for instance, and Wijnaldum is planting a seed there, maybe even going "I've got the gaffer on the phone here". Stuff like that has been going on for donkeys' because I can even remember reading a Trevor Brooking interview in which he said he considered joining Liverpool because all of our lads used to chat to him about joining us and how the manager was a big fan whenever they got together with England. I'm not especially arsed about tapping up, because it's the equivalent of doing 35mph- yes, it's illegal technically, but everyone does it. Obviously that's just one particular sphere in which it goes on, but I think you've hit the nail on the head here; 'soft enough'. I'm not one of these who constantly has a downer on FSG, but the transfer market has arguably been the biggest frustration under them. They're obviously incredibly complex business and you'll never get every target but it's the vast list of players we've missed out on, cocked up or even pissed off individually that suggests there's an inability to learn. The Van Dijk reaction was pathetic, for instance, and unbelievably misjudged. Now we're in the position of either waiting on the player himself to put in a request or for Southampton to publicly state they'll listen to offers. It's just another one in a long line of deals that's become far messier than it ought to have been. That seeming inability to learn is the biggest frustration for me. Transfers are no doubt difficult, but a bit of fucking nous wouldn't go amiss.

Fair point, MB. I mean, transfers are obviously a lot more complicated than the FM model of 'submit bid, negotiate with player' as in the majority of cases, I can't imagine why a club would bother submitting a bid if they knew the player himself wasn't keen, to varying degrees. The problem we're finding though with our general conduct, is that we're dependent on the players themselves making cunts of themselves to force the move, rather than get the come-on from the player or the agent and then talking amicably with the club. With Keita now, we're at the stage where he's pretty much going to have to submit a transfer request. That always seems to be the very last resort for a player because they seem to want to have their cake and eat it: pocket both the loyalty bonus and a nice fat signing on fee. The transfer request, though, is the ultimate 'break glass in case of emergency' option, and it's one I can't see him going for as he has too much in his favour with that release clause kicking in next summer. He's not soft; he knows he'll get his move eventually so if this bid fails, it's no skin off his nose to sit tight for a year.

When did this become a thing of agreeing terms with the player before the club? It counts for absolutely nothing if Leipzig knock us back again. It just doesn't make sense to me at all and in a wider sense, seems to be becoming more prevalent in football.

I pulled a bird last night and when we were kissing, she broke away to run a finger down my nose. "I love the shape of your nose," she said. Given me a bit of a complex that I've got a massive conk.

I've been several times as my mate's wife is from just outside the city. Don't get me wrong, Jenson, it is rough, but I also quite like it as it has a bit of character to it. As with the majority of cities, if you keep your wits about you and don't act like a dickhead you'll be sound. One time when me and my mate went, we had a little wander around Fell's Point and ended up in a record shop. On the walls, they had all these polaroids of all of The Wire cast members out on the piss. Dominic West looked well gone in several of them! Another time when my mate and I were on the ale there with a mate of my mate's wife. I ended up pulling her and my mate's wife ended up giving us a lift back to our hotel. Not wanting to cramp my style, my mate- obviously pissed- just said "I'm going to go for a little walk around here", walking a block back. My mate's wife slammed the brakes on along side him and bollocked him, "If you head down that way, you'll be dead," before taking him back to the hotel, sitting him down in the bar and telling him to stay put.

My mate's ma used to do Phil Thompson's books and he was on £45k per episode of Soccer Saturday a few years back. I know that's not the licence fee, but it's still a staggering amount to turn up, waffle about football from 12-6 while making farmyard noises as you're watching whatever game you've been assigned. And you just know they all head out on the lash afterwards and get absolutely shitfaced.

Chris Evans' ubiquity on the Beeb is genuinely staggering, especially considering it's about twenty odd years since he was even relevant in the wider public consciousness.

Been watching it with my old man. The camera pans on Rod Laver and some of the other Slam winners in the crowd. "I tell you who you never see in among all that lot," my dad says, "Arthur Ashe." Errrmm...

He'll bag the winner for us fourth game in versus City,

Does chat of the 'Williams brothers' make anyone else cringe?

That Hurst clip was also the first time I heard the phrase. I'm 29 and I think I came across that last year. It's such a weird video as- not that it ever should be said at all, let alone without even thinking- Hurst seems to go round the world to squeeze it in to what he's talking about. Just really, really odd.