PODCAST: Liverpool 5 Norwich City 2 - Match Reaction

Paul did what needed to be done. Drop in, call out the "shooooot" wankers and fuck off into the night. A faultless performance.

Ta mate. 

The talk at the end of the pod on Forest crying about Ivan Toney. I think that are trying to go full Everton and scam the fan base into believing the premier league are out to get them and to be outraged at everything except they are in the shit cause they overspend on a shit squad

Good pod. Nice to hear my FrIrish lad, John, on it again.
 

Although I’ll be honest, it’s quite frustrating to hear Dave, JB and John G make all the exact points I’ve been making around how different this is as we are changing a manager when we’re doing brilliantly and with a brilliant squad. Dave saying “what manager wouldn’t want to take over this?”  All of you saying how difficult it’s going to be for the next person. But when I say it, and then add that I’m nervous for an inexperienced manager to take over because of all those reasons; there is no discussion, I’m just a contrarian smelly disgusting cunt (I may be paraphrasing). It’d be nice if what I’ve been writing could be assessed for it says and not some preconceived idea of what people think I’d write. And yes, I know the response to this will just be more comments that I’m only saying that because “I hate Alonso”, but it is annoying to be misrepresented by people whose opinion you respect. I don’t mind all the other cunts though. 
 

Also, apparently VAR looked at the handball penalty but in the next move we scored so they stopped reviewing it. And while the first ball hit his hands in front of his chest (so shouldn’t be a penalty) the final move was his hand flicking it away from the attacker I think (I noticed that at the time but haven’t seen it since) so I think it would have been given and correctly.  
 

#WoeIsMe

My issue with your view as I’ve read it Johnny, is that I think it’s a no brainer that the club will do “due diligence”. That’s a given. However, you seem to use that to argue with fans - fans, not the board - that we shouldn’t leap to Xabi when it’s an almost universal shout among we fans and pundits too. The club’s due diligence process has absolutely fuck all to do with me and is going to happen regardless of what I think, so I don’t see why you’re beating that drum. It’s inevitable. 
 

However, I also think it’s inevitable that that process will lead them to Alonso. That said, when you’ve engaged with that point, it’s to find reasons why that would not be the case and you’ve wanted to argue against the evidence people are putting forward in his favour. That seems to me to be an entirely separate point to the one you’re making about due diligence, and that is why it strikes me that your self-confessed antipathy towards him may be a factor. You don’t have to await the outcome of the club’s Search to have your own view on who would be a good candidate.

I have to be honest, I had completely forgotten that you were so against the fella until I was reminded of it by someone else when querying out loud what your problem was with him based on what I read on Twitter over the weekend. 
 

I don’t expect you to agree with anything I’ve just written above, but - in the context of your hashtag – I just want to be clearer what my full view is via a format that allows more than just a few characters per tweet. 

1 hour ago, JohnnyH said:

Although I’ll be honest, it’s quite frustrating to hear Dave, JB and John G make all the exact points I’ve been making around how different this is as we are changing a manager when we’re doing brilliantly and with a brilliant squad. Dave saying “what manager wouldn’t want to take over this?”  All of you saying how difficult it’s going to be for the next person. But when I say it, and then add that I’m nervous for an inexperienced manager to take over because of all those reasons; there is no discussion, I’m just a contrarian smelly disgusting cunt (I may be paraphrasing).

I've read this three times and I'm still not exactly sure what it means, as I think we're in agreement on pretty much everything except the actual choice of Alonso, and I think part of that is because I don't see him as being "inexperienced" because of his stellar playing career under some of the best managers of the era he played in. He was always seen as 'the coach on the field" too, so given the vast amount of experience, intelligence and gravitas he has within the game, I don't see him as some Brendan Rodgers "hey look at me with my shiny new coaching badges!" type who's come from nowhere and had a couple of decent seasons playing nice football.

I'll take Alonso's football experiences over De Zerbi's all day every day. I know you mentioned Ancelotti on the other thread, but I addressed that there. Experience is all well and good, but I want a manager who is set on building something beyond the two or three years he plans to be in the job.

40 minutes ago, Paul said:

My issue with your view as I’ve read it Johnny, is that I think it’s a no brainer that the club will do “due diligence”. That’s a given. However, you seem to use that to argue with fans - fans, not the board - that we shouldn’t leap to Xabi when it’s an almost universal shout among we fans and pundits too. The club’s due diligence process has absolutely fuck all to do with me and is going to happen regardless of what I think, so I don’t see why you’re beating that drum. It’s inevitable. 
 

However, I also think it’s inevitable that that process will lead them to Alonso. That said, when you’ve engaged with that point, it’s to find reasons why that would not be the case and you’ve wanted to argue against the evidence people are putting forward in his favour. That seems to me to be an entirely separate point to the one you’re making about due diligence, and that is why it strikes me that your self-confessed antipathy towards him may be a factor. You don’t have to await the outcome of the club’s Search to have your own view on who would be a good candidate.

 

I have to be honest, I had completely forgotten that you were so against the fella until I was reminded of it by someone else when querying out loud what your problem was with him based on what I read on Twitter over the weekend. 
 

I don’t expect you to agree with anything I’ve just written above, but - in the context of your hashtag – I just want to be clearer what my full view is via a format that allows more than just a few characters per tweet. 

I find your answer quite confusing. I hope you take that comment in the right way, as it’s probably my explanation of things that makes it confusing for me. I’ll try and explain based on your points as I see them:

- My comments around due diligence are for me, and are that I don’t believe the club will act rashly and just appoint someone without doing the donkey work first. I’ve said that because of this, if they settle on Alonso then I’ll feel more positive as they’ll use metrics I have no knowledge or understanding of and will arrive at Alonso not like a fan would with a certain level of romance (that’s unavoidable) but purely statistically. i.e. that would mean Alonso is the best man for the job.  I appreciate the club due diligence thing has nothing to do with you or holds no interest to you, but it does for me. And that’s the only thing I can speak of. I’ve not tried to speak for you, or anyone. Just give MY reasons and concerns and hopes. 
 

- of course I am giving reasons to counter the Alonso shouts. So far, as Dave has said, every single person had said they want Alonso.  What use is one person just nodding along. All I’m doing is passing my concerns. I see today now that a few more are starting to mention the inexperience thing. It’s a fair concern I believe. At least to discuss?
 

-but then you say I’m arguing against the evidence people are putting in his favour? This is exactly what I meant when I said people are ignoring what I’m saying. Read my posts above and all you’ll see is me time and again saying he’s doing a fantastic job at Leverkusen. I’ve said multiple times that I don’t think he has to win the League for a fantastic season to be rubber-stamped. 2nd place would be almost as impressive. I’ve said above that if he wins the league then he should be a shoe in for Liverpool job.  I fully agree with the evidence everyone else is putting up. I’ve just asked what happens if it falls apart in the second half of the season? That’s why I say I wish this wasn’t happening for another 12 months. Time for us to have a broader sample size. 
 

- On your final point. I know I don’t have to wait for the outcome from the clubs search. I clearly haven’t given I’ve passed my view that Alonso hasn’t got the experience or longevity yet for us to have a big enough sample to be fully confident in the process. My comments again on the club process is that I have confidence in it. That’s all. It’s actually only a small part of my comment to basically say if the club arrive at Alonso then that’s fine by me. 
 

Similar to what you’ve said, I don’t expect you to agree or have any view in what I’ve said.  But there we go. 

27 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

I've read this three times and I'm still not exactly sure what it means, as I think we're in agreement on pretty much everything except the actual choice of Alonso, and I think part of that is because I don't see him as being "inexperienced" because of his stellar playing career under some of the best managers of the era he played in. He was always seen as 'the coach on the field" too, so given the vast amount of experience, intelligence and gravitas he has within the game, I don't see him as some Brendan Rodgers "hey look at me with my shiny new coaching badges!" type who's come from nowhere and had a couple of decent seasons playing nice football.

 

I'll take Alonso's football experiences over De Zerbi's all day every day. I know you mentioned Ancelotti on the other thread, but I addressed that there. Experience is all well and good, but I want a manager who is set on building something beyond the two or three years he plans to be in the job.

Fair enough.  And I do think we pretty much agree on most things. Yet the comments back to me suggest I’m railing against everything everyone else is saying. Just look at Paul’s comments above on my ignoring the evidence around Alonso when I’ve pointed it out myself nearly every time and fully agree that he looks very exciting and is dongs a great job. 
 

I will say though that I don’t see a playing career as acceptable experience for management. Many of those “coaches on the field” have been disastrous managers. Whereas some of the greatest recent coaches have had insignificant playing careers under average coaches. It can form part of the assessment but it should only be a small part of it in my opinion. I place a lot on demonstrable proof and experience. That’s just me. I like to see that in a managerial choice. I don’t think that’s outlandish or makes me a contrarian. In fact, I think most clubs would ideally like that when making a choice. 
 

As for De Zebri, or Ancelotti, or whoever.  I just don’t know who’ll be best. I know some of the things I’d like them to have. Experience being one as I’ve said. But I also know if we can’t get that then the best up and coming name in coaching would be my next choice. And in that case the choice would be Alonso as he looks the most exciting. 

Do you know what. I’m having big 2009/2010 flashbacks. And that was an unpleasant time. Just ignore what I’ve said other than to appreciate that I just want what’s best for this squad and club. And if that’s Alonso, then bring it on. 

I haven't had any issue with anything you've said and all of the above is fair. I see the experience thing differently to how you do but it's not a black and white thing and part of that is just my own interpretation of it. I put more stock in his playing experience than you do, but technically you're right, he is inexperienced at managerial level.

I think your point about ideally this coming in another 12 months time when he's got more experience and there's a bigger sample size is spot on, I feel the same way in an ideal world, but that's not the situation we find ourselves in. 

Sometimes it's all about timing and things falling into place. Kenny wasn't seen as being ready to take over from Fagan back in the day but that worked out. We could have gone with someone more experienced and missed out on that. Similarly Souness seemed to have had the perfect grounding before coming here and he was shite. We might have been better off giving it to Hansen. There's always risk involved either way.

We could go for someone else other than Xabi and then in 12 months time he's the Guardiola replacement at City and living up to the billing he's getting as the next great coach on the block. Or we could take him and he might flop. Who knows. It's not an exact science and the sample size is fairly small. If Leverkusen fall apart then as you said, that throws up a lot of questions.

A lot of the support for Alonso is based on a "well who else is there?" point of view. You only have to look at the options on that poll to see how uninspiring it is. If there was anyone else jumping off the page I might not be as entrenched on Alonso as I am. 

Ultimately I want someone who wants to carry on the work and philosophy of Klopp. I don't want to see too much change to the style of play, or to the commitment to bringing through young players and I want someone who carries and conducts himself like a Liverpool manager. If there's someone who can do all that better than Alonso can then sound, I'll happily take him.

Unless of course it's Gareth Barry!

@JohnnyH isn't being too controversial here.

What you can basically say about Alonso at this moment is that he has had a tremendous period. You cannot even say a full season yet, it's a period. He is inarguably green. There are loads of managers available right now who have done more than him.

So the reason he seems like the favourite for people is because he is Xabi Alonso. That's fine and the intangible things he could bring are an argument in his favour, but it's OK to say that those biases exist. 

And that's with saying that he will obviously be candidate and rightfully so. But way above everyone else or the obvious option, nah.

2 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

You cannot even say a full season yet, it's a period. He is inarguably green. There are loads of managers available right now who have done more than him.

 

It's not his first season though. He took over when they were second from bottom and led them into the European places. Think he reached the Europa League semis too. So he hasn't got a full season in the books yet, but in a year he's gone from 2nd bottom to top.

I'm more than happy to read your list of the loads of managers available who have done more than him though.

That's not being facetious either, I genuinely would like to see the list.

Including his time at Sociedad he has over 160 games as a mamager. Granted nearly 100 are in the Spanish 2/3 tier. He took Sociedad B team to the Spanish 2nd division for the first time since the early 60s, they got relegated a year later. 

He's got 65 games now at Leverkusen 

He took the team 2nd bottom at the start of October to 6th, 12pts of 4th, a Europa league semi final, very unlucky to lose out to a typical scabby Mourinho park the bus Roma. When he took over they lost the first champions league game to Porto within a week buy then drew with A. Madrid and Brugge.

In 65 games

41 wins

14 draws

10 defeats

GS 149

GA 66

GD +83

He may be young and still fairly inexperienced but he isn't a novice stepping off the pitch as a coach and getting a job straight away

24 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

It's not his first season though. He took over when they were second from bottom and led them into the European places. Think he reached the Europa League semis too. So he hasn't got a full season in the books yet, but in a year he's gone from 2nd bottom to top.

 

I'm more than happy to read your list of the loads of managers available who have done more than him though.

Pretty much every manager that can be named as a reasonable contender, except for De Zerbi, has done more and for a longer period of time. That’s not Xabi's fault. Again, he has not even managed a full season in the top flight. But that's the point; Alonso has literally not achieved a single thing yet. if you want some names; Amorim and Inzaghi are two, but any manager that has been successful for a full season, plays nice football and who has won something is ahead from a resume standpoint.

The idea that the club may not even care about achievements and are just looking for a period of high performance that they think is sustainable is one I could hear but we don't have access to the kind of data that the club would use to determine that. So what you are left with is the fact that Alonso is who he is, and that is why he is the favourite.

Alonso is a gamble but it's a calculated gamble on him being the next generational manager. If could go sour but if we strike gold, we'll be like Mr. T.

These make a shit day at work almost half decent, nice one lads.

8 hours ago, Elite said:

Alonso is a gamble but it's a calculated gamble on him being the next generational manager. If could go sour but if we strike gold, we'll be like Mr. T.

Exactly. 

11 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

 

Pretty much every manager that can be named as a reasonable contender, except for De Zerbi, has done more and for a longer period of time. That’s not Xabi's fault. Again, he has not even managed a full season in the top flight. But that's the point; Alonso has literally not achieved a single thing yet. if you want some names; Amorim and Inzaghi are two, but any manager that has been successful for a full season, plays nice football and who has won something is ahead from a resume standpoint.

 

The idea that the club may not even care about achievements and are just looking for a period of high performance that they think is sustainable is one I could hear but we don't have access to the kind of data that the club would use to determine that. So what you are left with is the fact that Alonso is who he is, and that is why he is the favourite.

So you're completely dismissing the playing career, the vast experience of being in the biggest games a player can play in, winning the biggest trophies in the game, playing for some of the greatest managers of the last 30 years and in one case deliberately moving to a club specifically to learn from one of those coaches, all with a view to going into management when he retired.

A glittering playing career doesn't ensure a glittering managerial career and we've seen countless examples of that, but there are still a lot of things that can be taken from it. It counts for a lot with players too, as long as you're not a complete dick. Villa players won't have given a shit about Gerrard's career when he was throwing them under bus after defeats, and Everton's players won't have cared about Lampard's career when he showed he was a shite manager (Rooney is another one) but if you know how to handle players and you know what you're doing on the coaching pitch, that experience and reputation from your playing career means a lot as you've been there and done it and can relate to players who are now in those same situations.

Again, if you're not a good enough coach then it means fuck all. What I'm saying is if you have two fellas who are great coaches, both are great man managers but one of them has won everything and was also one of the most respected players of his generation, then I'm taking that guy.

12 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

@JohnnyH isn't being too controversial here.

 

What you can basically say about Alonso at this moment is that he has had a tremendous period. You cannot even say a full season yet, it's a period. He is inarguably green. There are loads of managers available right now who have done more than him.

 

He has set a record for a team in the Bundesliga with games played without a loss from the start of the season in all competitions. 

Hamburg SV held the old record from the 82/83 season with their 24 games unbeaten run in all competions at the start of the season.

Bayer Leverkusen have now played 28 games so far this season without a loss, not only have they set a new record, they have smashed it.

Can you point me in the direction of all these managers who have done better than this?

3 hours ago, dave u said:

 

So you're completely dismissing the playing career, the vast experience of being in the biggest games a player can play in, winning the biggest trophies in the game, playing for some of the greatest managers of the last 30 years and in one case deliberately moving to a club specifically to learn from one of those coaches, all with a view to going into management when he retired.

 

A glittering playing career doesn't ensure a glittering managerial career and we've seen countless examples of that, but there are still a lot of things that can be taken from it. It counts for a lot with players too, as long as you're not a complete dick. Villa players won't have given a shit about Gerrard's career when he was throwing them under bus after defeats, and Everton's players won't have cared about Lampard's career when he showed he was a shite manager (Rooney is another one) but if you know how to handle players and you know what you're doing on the coaching pitch, that experience and reputation from your playing career means a lot as you've been there and done it and can relate to players who are now in those same situations.

 

Again, if you're not a good enough coach then it means fuck all. What I'm saying is if you have two fellas who are great coaches, both are great man managers but one of them has won everything and was also one of the most respected players of his generation, then I'm taking that guy.

Yes, generally speaking. For example, what separates say Guardiola from Lampard as a manager? Both players I think were viewed as quite cerebral, right? Lampard supposedly has a very high IQ off the pitch. Both played under genius managers. What is the correlation between their playing careers and abilities as managers? What can we even gleam from their playing careers based on the gap in managerial ability between those two?

So, for you, the x factor with Xabi is that he sought out to play under Guardiola later in his career? I guess I can agree that is a good sign. 

Lets say at this very present moment, its Amorim v. Alonso. On one side, you have a manager that won the league at Sporting, a team who have the 3rd biggest budget in the country and hadnt won the league in 20 years. He also won 2 domestic cups there. His style of football and tactics have been lauded. He is a young manager who was also a respected ex player. 

Other than the fact he knows the club and all that, why exactly should Xabi be way above someone like Amorim, at this present moment? Thats all Im saying. I dont think you can have a prohibitive favourite and I certainly dont think anyone who doesnt see Xabi as a no brainer is some contrarian or talking crazy. Anyway, things will transpire for the rest of the season that could be telling. 

1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

I certainly dont think anyone who doesnt see Xabi as a no brainer is some contrarian or talking crazy. 

I've never said that was the case.

1 hour ago, dave u said:

 

I've never said that was the case.

That's good. Feels like that is the general sentiment, however.

On 29/01/2024 at 21:55, dave u said:

That's not being facetious either, I genuinely would like to see the list.

Gretar Steinsson will be on there.