cracker

Lots of big issues here, some thoughts 8 years for V and T and then releasing them with a new identity and round the clock protection costing the tax payer loads was not appropriate - I do not know them obviously and so for that reason it is interesting to read Walton on here who does but imo they are probably people who the public should be protected from and therefore 'locked up' all their lives. In my naive younger days I maybe thought that everyone could behave or whatever if they put their mind to it, but in my job (teacher in a difficult school with low academic standards and lots of behaviour issues) I have come across some really appalling examples of the human race and V and T would seem to be such. At times I think people who do not mix with such scum do not realise the extent of the problem - try having a normal conversation with such people - I have many times in the last few years - its not possible. All they seem to know is hate. The type I talk about are kids who bully others, cannot interact civilly, are always aggressive, tell lies constantly, deny everything, destroy property, reject the idea of education usually truanting school (as V and T were doing in 1993 - in a shopping centre not school in the middle of the day at the age of 10) and are just horrible people to know. Some get kicked out of school at an early age and then are supposed to be in some kind of 'unit' or whatever and often never go and so sit at home getting up mid afternoon getting smashed and go round robbing houses and mugging grannies - for drug money and simply kicks. Respect? - they have no concept of what it means either for themselves or anyone else. I am patient with most but such people stretch me beyond my limit. Antony Walkers killers, Rhys Jones killers, V and T, the killers of that fella Gary in Warrington (and the people who protect them who are almost as bad in my eyes) are to me the type who it would be best for everyone if they were just kept in an institution all their life as that way the rest of us are protected. It is not revenge (and yes I agree that often that emotion is drummed up unhelpfully by tabloids in these cases) or even punishment in a way, it is just common sense. I do agree with the general point that prison is overused and many people in prison do not need to be there and a different more creative kind of sentencing needs to be developed but in the case of violent psychopathic nutters they are different and should be kept there permanently.

Just a word or two in response to this. I line matches and when the ref gives us our instructions before the match usually about throw ins they will say something like 'In your third I'll go with you, near half way look at each other and go the same way and in my third go with me'. If the liner flags one way and the ref points the other it looks bad and so we are told to use eye contact to try to ensure that that does not happen. Re fouls (even penalties) if it is on the blind side of the ref then the liner is told to flag with an indication of what for (hand ball, trip, tug ...whatever) but if the ref has a clear view largely leave it to him rather than flag and possibly undermine him. I have no reason to assume that instructions (which i think make sense) are any different at PL level, although in the PL they all have 'buzzer' flags and so can alert refs straight away if they want to flag for something. I have used such flags twice this season - they are cool!! - no yelling across the pitch to the ref if theres an offside on the far side or if a team wants to make a sub!! In fact some of the refs I line for do Welsh Prem and minor international matches and so they are at quite a highish level in reffing. At times pundits on radio and TV do not seem to understand the relationship between liner and ref, but in many ways I can accept that it is the fault of match officials as they do not come out and explain it in the media enough. I know I occasionally make cock ups at the level I am at but when I see some of the crap lining on TV I have to say that it makes me feel a lot better - the CL one in the Fiorentina V Bayern game last week for instance was a joke as was the Wigan V Spurs one a week or so ago.

I voted for Neville but I hate most of them - wheres the Diouf option cos he is up there with them too - and to think he once played for us.

I think that way too - people would counter it with 'Well if you don't pay them that much they'd never come to us' cos that is what the biggest clubs like Chelsea, Man City ...etc pay. Thats true but then I get to thinking 'well given how we've seen them (eg Aq, Maxi especially but also Ngog, Babel...etc) perform so far tell them to get lost and we'll get lesser players who'd played in the British leagues who might look like they're trying or whatever.' But where are such players and they'd be a gamble and ...... but then I end questioning whether the problem is the managers tactics and not individuals performances and in the end I end up saying that I just don't know any more - all I do know is that its very depressing.

Not got it in vision anywhere and all i know about the game is what i've read on here (or the BBC site) but sounds similar to the Arsenal away game when i was happy at half time cos we'd negated a good team by our tactics - and then that good team stepped up a bit in the second half but the game was still pretty rubbish. ....which the LFC 2010 version takes - as a 0-0 away to a high up good team is rated a success - and on one level it maybe is. But then they scored - possibly a bit luckily - but of course we could not respond and score back so we lost 1-0 and were reduced to appealing about the injustice of penalty appeals in the 95th minute of a game with 4 minutes stoppage time. Hope the same thing does not happen here.

Yeah thats what i meant - I am not advocating a return to the swinging swaying Kop of the 60s - good time tho that undoubtedly was but I think safe standing priced lower and thus more accessible to the ordinary fan would be fine by me.

I always think that when he gets put in list of LFCs worst players that it is totally unfair - can't remember his exact record but it was something like played 13 scored 6 then he left cos Kenny wanted him at BRFC to help get them into the PL - which he did. Had his issues certainly and was not perhaps the nicest man in the world but I wanted him to stay and IMO he was another one who Souness sold too soon.

Heres a maybe controversial one - before I start let me say I feel as strongly as anyone over all the Hillsboruigh issues trust me but when debating it I think some people reject the idea of safe terracing too quickly. I believe that it would bring admittance costs down and if properly monitored there would be no safety issues as it could be totally safe - and maybe then the people at games would be more 'footy people' than the corporates, moaners and club shop goers who attend the matches these days. I know as Liverpool fans we are not meant to support terracing as some how it disrespects the 96 but I do not see it that way - I just think terracing if well set out and not too packed makes a lot of sense.

Probably agree - which anyone who knows me will tell you is amazing as Babel and Skrtel are two of my least liked players at the club, but fair play Babel looked skilful and bothered when he came on - and was 100 times more effective than Reira who i often like and will defend but yesterday he was rubbish. Also Babel was not too bad V Arsenal so maybe my 'get out of our club with your stinking attitude' rant in agreement with Dave U after the derby was premature - we'll see what hes like for the rest of the season but if Torres continues to be absent I may almost prefer him to Ngog now. Our attacking options with Ngog leading the line by himself imo are awful. Skrtel I never feel comfortable with feeling like defensively he is a mistake waiting to happen and also he seems a 'hoof it' player but yesterday he looked confident defensively and his passing was OK too.

Really? - I guess you're talking about Eccleston, Amoo, Ayala, Kelly, Pacheco, Nemeth and so on. They may turn out good, they may not I reserve judgment. All I would say is that many thought Anderson, Hammill, Hobbs, Mannix ...etc were the bees knees a couple of years back and before that lot Welsh and his crew - where are that lot playing now? The bottom line for me is that our scouts do not seem very good putting it kindly - that above anything is where action needs to be taken - sack Macia and get someone in who can spot talent able to do it at PL level.

Lot wrong about that post mate - no he is not a particularly good player - alright maybe but not that good. I mean I hate MUFC with a passion but even I would concede that Keane, Schmeichal and Cantona were special players even tho I hate all 3 of them - but they do not get the same media acclaim as David - cos they are not married to a pop star. Some of the reasons why I think you are wrong on Beckham a) the reason why he played so much for top teams was his commercial value - by having him at their club teams made millions on merchandise so largely they could not afford to leave him out. He was never that good and in fact Capello did leave him out a lot latterly at RM - when his form was particularly bad - but he was still getting picked by good ole Sven for England. b) the reason why he scored 100 goals = look at the pens he scored and also the ratio between the number of free kicks taken to goals scored. In most games he pushed team mates out the way to take all free kicks and had to have half a dozen high and wide before he scored one. He did not score many from open play. But yes as i conceded in an earlier post at present he is in good shape physically and also playing quite well and so maybe deserves his place in the squad - but he hasn't always done.

So you think that this player is worthy of winning about 20 more caps than any other English player in history. Incredible!!

My views on David!! Hate him cos he is a Cockney lad who loved the Mancs and always will and of course he played for them. Also as i am a celebrity culture hater and he more than almost anyone on the planet represents that culture so how can i fail to hate him. When SAF had a go at him with the boot incident cos of his wife and the circus that surrounds them it was one of the few times in my life that if I am honest I thought SAF had a point. Also his Eng apperances between about 2002 and 2006 were very average but cos he was who he was Sven kept on picking him as captain no matter how little he contributed and how badly he played. Around that time I remember George Best had a go at his ability and to me he had it about right. People who know nothing about football (mainly - but not all - women and people in the Asian market) love him for his style and fashion or whatever rubbish else. Going to USA and earning (I think) 4 times as much weekly - half a million dollars is it and that is before any enhancement money - as any of his team mates says a lot about him. Then he wonders why that creates a team spirit problem!! He comes over as a egotistical, greedy shallow man and to me is annoying to say the least. But in fairness to him these days in the media most of his interviews are fairly sensible (he must have good advisors) and so people are far less likely to dislike him. Perhaps even I myself find myself filled with less hate when I hear him speak these days. Also his football form has picked up and so maybe I can accept him being in the squad. It's just that the way things are going he will end up with about 140 caps which is no way deserved and really just ridiculous.

This to me is an interesting one - as i often feel that it is made too black and white as lots of people seem to say touch the ball then the man = no foul touch the man then the ball = foul And for me it is not that simple - I have tried to look it up in the laws of the game as I suspected it was not even mentioned and to be fair it does say that it is a foul if you 'make contact with your oppoent before touching the ball' But to me when people say 'he got the ball first so it can't be a foul' they are not right as you may tackle in a reckless way touch the ball first and then clatter the man - in that case the ref is justifed in giving a foul (and maybe a yellow) ... and often has done. An incident I find interesting was the Ngog V Bham one - Carsley does not touch the ball at all (fact!!) and comes sliding yards across the turf and Ngog maybe runs into his leg a bit and seems to throw himself over which i will admit was a bit naughty but as Carsley's tackle was so poor maybe a pen was right - I am not even sure myself but certainly it is not as clear cut as the likes of Gray on Sky made it out to be ... but then things rarely are. All in all an interesting debate.

You've forgotten my favourite - the legend Nemanja Vidic the so called 22nd best player in the world according to 442 who was sent off for the third consecutive match V Us.

Yeah if asked to name my least fav ref I'd also say Bennett - as much for his style as anything else - I have spent ages arguing about the OT Masch red with many people - as that was due to the way he refs as much as anything. I honestly cannot see Webb in the same light as unlike Bennett he does seem to have a 'talking to the players' type of style and have some love of the game and does not seem to be on an ego trip as some refs seem to be but he does seem to getting more big decisions wrong in big games and soon I expect he will stop being given big games if it continues. Question then is who is the new top ref for the big games - I have no easy answers - maybe Mike Dean from the Wirral - he too like all refs has made mistakes but after TV replays he seems to get a greater proportion right. Don't shout me down but I would have said Atkinson too as imo he seems to have been fairly accurate in big games - but Saturday changed all that for me - he was not good enough to ref that game, thats the truth. Peter Walton is undemonstative but maybe a good ref as is Alan Wiley so for me the top 3 are Dean, Walton and Wiley. Also Mark Halsey - such a shame about his cancer - hopefully he'll be back reffing PL games soon - I've heard he might be.

Yes

Maybe just maybe if he had given a free kick and a red it would have have been acceptable - wrong but acceptable as it was a bit debateable whether it was in the box or not - imo it was cos part of his foot was on the line - but to give nothing was just plain wrong.

Being a ref is hard - I know cos i do it regularly and i can recall situations where I have just froze and not given things I have seen and should have given - I think if refs were honest every single one of them would admit to that (sadly some are not that honest after games). Some of you having a go at Webb should maybe ref a kids game and see how hard it is. Due to this I object strongly to the use of the word cheat ever in relation to reffing and we have seen it in this thread quite a bit - no ref ever cheats I can assure you and it is the word refs most object to - many times I've heard a ref say 'I may be rubbish but I am not a cheat' (or words to that effect) Anyway to get back to tonights incident imo Webb did just that - he froze - scared to give a big decision against the home team in the last minute - which is very poor - especially when you consider that this man is meant to be Englands top ref. I recall Souness saying on Sunday re the ref in the Bham/Wolves game when asked why he did not give a pen for the push in the box just before half time 'he bottled it' which was exactly true of Webb tonight. A shame really as I felt up till then he had done OK - in fact tbh we had had our fair share of 50/50s given in our favour but this was the big one - the big decision whereby he would have had to give a pen and a red card against the home team captain in the last minute - and he froze. Shocking. As many have said I think he has got worse as a ref as a couple of seasons back I recall him giving a pen against the home team in a WC (or was it the Euros?) game in the last minute when it clearly was a pen but it took bottle to give it - he had it then but he did not have it tonight.

I admit - I have time for Degen and have defended him on threads recently but tonight he was not at his best - but a couple of points about what you say 1) Degen had made a long run to get to the position of receiving the pass which he did fairly well to keep in - falling over can happen to anyone but yeah it did look embarassing. 2) I remember an incident in the first half when Gerard played a poor pass to Lucas who could have been in when it was an easy pass to play so it is not just Degen who makes ricks. Try to post balanced views and not just the 'SG is the only decent player we have' agenda as peddled by many in the media - yes he is a LFC leg but frankly he was not that great tonight and hasn't been all season (possibly to do with fitness) And by the way I think playing him where he was in the first half is not using his talents to the best.

No theres 2 members - AG and Ryan Babel himself - tho hopefully McLeish will join too soon so we can get rid - tonight changes nothing tho yes I will admit he was marginally better than some of his other appearances (not hard)

Good article - the truth now is that we have public opinion on our side - as Lawton is certainly not a red - and have done tbh for a long time (ever since Taylor) - which was not the case in the immediate aftermath - due obviously to the lies put forward by Duckinfield and his cronies aided and abetted by McKenzie at that time. Whether following this new investigation truth or justice wins out over officialdom (or whatever else you want to call it) we shall see - the cover up performed by officialdom in the form of the police and others for the past 20+ years will prove very hard to break down even for men like Scraton and the bishop but good luck to them is what I think we all are saying. They will need it as there will be many who have a vested interest in not wanting the truth to come out ....he said stating the obvious.

You're right in that yeah it was a simplifed and perhaps too generalised view of the world that I put forward but I still stand by the general principle i.e. that kids these days are over exposed to the kind of stuff I put in my long ranty list (to which I could have included Jordan too!! - and all sorts of other shallow stuff of similar ilk) and not religion or spiritual values at all - so to have balanced RE in secondary schools to at least explain a bit of which religion is all about is a good thing - but it must be balanced and not indoctrinatory RE of course, that goes without saying. I agree that to send kids to Christian schools or whatever can turn a kid off and be counter productive - hence the reason why I brought my kids up to be normal and just go to the normal local comp and to have normal mates - and they haven't turned out too bad I am pleased to say - tho the fact my eldest son (who is 25) supports Bolton Wanderers not Liverpool is a major disappointment to me!! I don't know if I quite grasp what you're sayin about parents - yeah certainly parents have a role in bringing or educating or whatever you want to call it their kids - but for certain the truth is that they are a minor influence - mates and modern culture in the form of TV and magazines have the biggest influence by far on youngsters - I speak as both a parent and a teacher - I wish I had more influence but I know what the reality is!!

I did a long post and nobody chose to respond to it at all - oh well. Anyway I have read more and feel the need to respond more. I know people who chose to home school their kids or send them to Christian schools - I wouldn't myself as I want my kids to just go to the normal local school - and that is what they did - but I can see why people might want that. The reason for the views of these Christians is that in their opinion (and mine too if I am honest) the messages put over day to day in the media are alien to my beliefs and ideas - celebrity, sex, celebrity, Simon Cowell, Big Brother, sex, money, swear words, celebrity, soap operas, tabloid lies, sex, Big Brother, mobile phones, reality shows (so called), computer games, the lottery, lying politicians, Simon Cowell, obsession with outward appearance, corruption....blah blah blah. They do not want this to be the diet that their kids are exposed to day by day - and can you blame them!! To have their kids educated by people with different world views is very attractive and so that is what they do. The hypothesis here is that these days very few people are exposed to religion as it is so marginalised in 21st century society but imo the spiritual and moral aspects of life are very important - more important than Simon Cowell even!! and so kids should learn about them - as a priority really - cos even though I am a Maths teacher to me it is far more important that a child learns and reflects on religion and matters of injustice in the world than learns about Pythagoras theorem for instance. I find some views expressed on this thread to be surprising shall we say - kids should use school computers for porn as not to do so infringes their human rights - what!!, 8 year olds interst in sex being 'normal'. When I was 8 I know what my main interests were - and it wasn't sex - but maybe that says a lot for the diet that 8 year olds grow up in today - and it does not mean he is a bad person!! Frankly these days there is a lot more 'porn' available to view in many places - net, TV ...etc compared to when i was young and most people do so and it does not effect them badly. I just dislike a culture where sex is seen as the most important thing and what gives you value as a person - it isn't - what you are inside and how you treat others is what is the most important - see the words of Jesus on this and many other matters where he goes against modern culture in the Sermon on the Mount - and in that there may be many of his so called followers on earth today who do not live up to this and so to them he might say 'I do not know you'- again see his words in the bible.

Stu - its Al alias Cracker the man you called a child abuser (but didn't want an argument about religion with - lol) on the Hillsborough thread here. I and many others are Christians, you are not - all of us imo are entitled to our views. Clearly whether you like it or not religion is a major factor in the world being how it is - imo (and I know you'll probably disagree) it has done lots of good - but also lots of evil too I admit that. But to deny young people the chance to learn about it as you seem to be advocating is to me very wrong. Any person with no knowledge of what Islam for example believes could not possibly understand why the world is how it is. To me the UK system of balanced RE teaching which informs about all the major world relgions and does not indoctrinate is admirable. This is probably more possible in state run schools than the fiath based ones I admit but even the faith based ones allow debate and make the pupils aware of all the main religions of the world - unlike say schools in most Muslim countries. Not pefect obviously - but the best system to have taking all into acount. In the US a Christian country there is sadly no religion in schools and so all views given to young people there will be tainted by bias I would have thought as they will come from the commited TV evangelists or politicians with striong views or secularists bitter against relgion ...etc so surely to me to have religion put over in a neutral way as it is in the UK during RE lessons is best. I know you won't agree - but felt I had to at least put the other side of the argument. Re Obama he is a Christian - there was a prog on BBC2 I think which i recorded on Sky+ the other week and only watched this week called 'God bless Barack Obama'. He like me has very different sort of views to many of the Republican Southern Baptist types who have it seems 2 major moral issues - abortion and gay marriage - to me (and Barack) things like education, employment, the economy, war, poverty .... etc are far more moral issues - and in fact imo the issues emphasised by the Republicans are very hard with no clear Christian view imo. It is time Christians like myself, Obama, Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis and others like them started regaining the preminent position in the Christain world voice as for sure if you want to hear my view as a Christian do not listen to any of the tele evangelist types